Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

You do know that you have a habit of snapping at everyone and making personal attacks and then accuse everyone of the same when they call you out. Maybe just agree to disagree instead of treating your opinions like an absolute fact. While I don't always agree with Derite, he's at least civil when expressing his views. Kelmendasi is like the least confrontational person on these forums and you went all in on him for no good reason.

I was reading some old threads and posts since I wasn't active on fora for a long time and even then people were accusing Hawk of lacking self awareness. As you said the fact that he snapped at Kelmendasi who's like one of the nicest Albanians on fora is quite bizarre.

As for Derite, I agree that he is "civil" but in a strange, almost numb way. Kind of how a junkie who has smoked so much weed that he can't defend himself when he's robbed. However instead of drugs, in Durites case his infantile mind comes from countless readings and obsession over a few chapters of a thousands year old Greek man and his poem.
 
Fustan= Women's dress accusing every E-V13 member of being bizarre, strange, and whatever fulfills his appetite. But do that not from the comfort of sitting in the chair and typing in keyboard.

In one of the posts he was making up from his ass that Riverman wrote about Sardinian L283 theory, probably he needed something in order to undermine his name. Now, he went quoting Aspurgs thread with idiotic/childish ramblings ah you are Kuqi/Albanian lol. What a freak.
 
Riverman, Aspurg (just found out he has Albanian ancestry on his fathers line, it's always the self haters who are the most vocals), the entire shkine clique which you so admire and think are so authoritative were for sure propagating a J2-L283 Sardinian theory.

Riverman is undermining himself monthly, I don't need to do it. BGR_IA as a representative for ancient Western Balkan autosomal profile. Dude is just stupid, I don't know what else to say.

Hawk, I know that not much E-V13 has been found in the ancient Balkans where Illyrians lived, but I assure you that is because those regions are NOT SAMPLED YET. That includes Croatia as well by the way, we just have a few coastal samples. You really did not need to lose your mind over it and start to insult your fellow Albanians who so far have been vindicated throughout the years, while developing an almost romantic relationship with Riverman. You're actually one of the most bizarre people I've met on fora, that I might ask VICE to make another documentary on Albanians, but instead of those who just completely lose their mind because their haplogroups were "treated bad".
 
Jeez, what a moron. He goes on with ramblings. Aspurg's subclade is obviously not Kuqi has nothing to do with Kuqi who are Z5018, and he is Z5017.

Since Derite quoted Matzinger he is focusing all his energy to undermine him and insult in worst possible manner. The same applies to Riverman, since he was posting about E-V13 he was thinking where can i attack him, let's just invent that he was posting about Sardinian theory. Since i insulted that little b i t c h Bruzmi he now goes on to attempt with me lol. Pathetic.
 
Riverman, Aspurg (just found out he has Albanian ancestry on his fathers line, it's always the self haters who are the most vocals), the entire shkine clique which you so admire and think are so authoritative were for sure propagating a J2-L283 Sardinian theory.

Riverman is undermining himself monthly, I don't need to do it. BGR_IA as a representative for ancient Western Balkan autosomal profile. Dude is just stupid, I don't know what else to say.

Hawk, I know that not much E-V13 has been found in the ancient Balkans where Illyrians lived, but I assure you that is because those regions are NOT SAMPLED YET. That includes Croatia as well by the way, we just have a few coastal samples. You really did not need to lose your mind over it and start to insult your fellow Albanians who so far have been vindicated throughout the years, while developing an almost romantic relationship with Riverman. You're actually one of the most bizarre people I've met on fora, that I might ask VICE to make another documentary on Albanians, but instead of those who just completely lose their mind because their haplogroups were "treated bad".

I am saying this to you and the others with the tiny bit of respect that I can still muster: science does not care about the emotional coping of people who see their identity crashed. E1b-V13 is not core Illyrian and has a very different pathway from J2b-L283. Gava>Proto Thracians and all of the other possible offshoots of these population groups are most likely the source of E1b-V13 in the Balkans.

You cannot claim that the overall Albanian genome has only one source.
 
This thread is comparable to a playground, the 'haplogroup superiority' game.
What happened to, 'At the end of the day, we are all Albanians'
 
Jeez, what a moron. He goes on with ramblings. Aspurg's subclade is obviously not Kuqi has nothing to do with Kuqi who are Z5018, and he is Z5017.

Since Derite quoted Matzinger he is focusing all his energy to undermine him and insult in worst possible manner. The same applies to Riverman, since he was posting about E-V13 he was thinking where can i attack him, let's just invent that he was posting about Sardinian theory.

I just saw that comment how immature and cringe.
 
[FONT=&quot]I would also call on all of you to refrain from insults and stick to the topic of this thread. [/FONT]
 
I am saying this to you and the others with the tiny bit of respect that I can still muster: science does not care about the emotional coping of people who see their identity crashed. E1b-V13 is not core Illyrian and has a very different pathway from J2b-L283. Gava>Proto Thracians and all of the other possible offshoots of these population groups are most likely the source of E1b-V13 in the Balkans.

You cannot claim that the overall Albanian genome has only one source.


Majority of Albanians descend from Illyrians.
E-V13 peaks among the Albanian ethnicity in all of Europe.
E-V13 is the most diverse in Albanians in all of Europe.
E-V13 is huge in both among Tosks and Ghegs, unlike J2-L283 where it is quite a bit lower.
Tosk and Gheg split happened before the Slavic migrations.
There are no documented mass migration (especially of Thracians or Daco-Thracians), of such a proportion that 30+% of Albanians would descend from this new migration, except for the Slavic one which we know was I2a and R1a.
The most important regions, i.e, Albania, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Kosovo have a total of 0 samples, which means we cannot rule out E-V13 or R1b-L23 (people seem to forget this one exists) to have been carried by the ancient Illyrians who lived here.

Anything here you disagree with?
 
I am saying this to you and the others with the tiny bit of respect that I can still muster: science does not care about the emotional coping of people who see their identity crashed. E1b-V13 is not core Illyrian and has a very different pathway from J2b-L283. Gava>Proto Thracians and all of the other possible offshoots of these population groups are most likely the source of E1b-V13 in the Balkans.

You cannot claim that the overall Albanian genome has only one source.

And what i have ben saying. Reading archeological material, even Andreas Lippert, the co-author with Matzinger dropped the Danubian Urnfield influence on Glasinac (looks like Aspurg was right here), he seems to quote and agree with Prendi and Gavranovic in the end, in his 2018 pre-print he was actually implying for a Danubian Urnfield influence where i was seeing E-V13 come into play. Though i am still open to a possibility in Albania, but that is question-mark, since Albanian archeologists do note the appearance of Kanellure/Channeled-Ware.

By reading more material, people evolve their perception of the past. The weird thing would be if we get stuck in a loop refusing to see new facts.
 
I just saw that comment how immature and cringe.

What's actually cringe is someone labeling themselves as a "Neo-Illyrian" when he holds that the haplogroup most of his ancestors bore is not Illyrian.
 
And what i have ben saying. Reading archeological material, even Andreas Lippert, the co-author with Matzinger dropped the Danubian Urnfield influence on Glasinac (looks like Aspurg was right here), he seems to quote and agree with Prendi and Gavranovic in the end, in his 2018 pre-print he was actually implying for a Danubian Urnfield influence where i was seeing E-V13 come into play. Though i am still open to a possibility in Albania, but that is question-mark, since Albanian archeologists do note the appearance of Kanellure/Channeled-Ware.

By reading more material, people evolve their perception of the past. The weird thing would be if we get stuck in a loop refusing to see new facts.

The appearance of Kanellure/Chaneled-Ware is definitely interesting I am also not being one dimensional to other possibilities but the former is definitely more likely but more than one scenario is also possible.

Academic stagnation does indeed not lead to anything.
 
Hawk, what is your E-V13 subclade?
 
This thread is comparable to a playground, the 'haplogroup superiority' game.
What happened to, 'At the end of the day, we are all Albanians'

Good start, now you should be able to comprehend that some people have ulterior motives against your lineage. Likewise, you see Fustan (God! What a dumb username choice) pushes himself so much to insult and label decent E-V13 members.
 
Fascinatingly, this could possibly pose a problem to Noel Malcolm's Dardani theory.

One of the main reasons Malcolm lists for rejecting Schramm's Bessi theory is the Christianisation of the Bessi that was done by Nicetas of Remesiana (which happened in the time that the Proto-Albanians were christianised.) and it was supposedly done in the language
of the Bessi.


Noel Malcolm:

"The early conversion of the Bessi to Christianity is indeed, in Schramm's view, the key to the entire question of how and why Albanian survived as a language. We know that the Bessi were converted by an enterprising bishop, Nicetas, in the late fourth century, and from the writings of a friend of Nicetas who celebrated this event we also know that he learned their language and taught them to practise their Christianity in it - in other words, that Bessan was used as a liturgical language. (The evidence of the Bessan-speaking monks supports this point.) Nicetas, whose own mother-tongue was Latin, may also have translated parts of the Bible; the obvious model - or competition - that he must have had in mind was the work of a heretical bishop, Ulfilas, who was using the Germanic Gothic language for liturgy and Bible-translation among the nearby population of Goths in northern Bulgaria. And, as comparison with other linguistic survivals (such as Armenian or Coptic) shows, nothing helps a language to survive quite so much as its use from a very early stage in a kind of national church.

One thing is quite certain: the Albanians did acquire their Christianity from a Latin-speaking teacher or teachers. The Albanian language contains much Latin-derived vocabulary anyway, having obviously absorbed words from nearby Romans or Romanized barbarians from the second century bc onwards; but the Latin element is especially rich in the area of Christian belief and Christian practice. Thus we have meshe (mass), from missa; ipeshk (bishop), from episcopus; ungjill (gospel), from evangelium; mrekull (miracle), from miraculum; and a great number of other words, extending far into the vocabulary of psychology, morality and even the natural world (such as qiell, meaning heaven or sky, from caelum).


Many of the words that would need to be put on such a list, in fact, are not special ecclesiastical terms, for which a non-Christian population would have no equivalent of its own; they are simple words such as 'spirit', 'sin', 'pray*, 'holy', and so on, for which most languages, even in pre-Christian times, have their own vocabulary. When other early evangelizers translated the Bible or the liturgy into Armenian, or Gothic, or Anglo-Saxon, they used local words for these things - that, indeed, is what is implied by the whole idea of translation. Why should Nicetas, translating into proto-Albanian, have simply transferred huge quantities of Latin words? Schramm notes the oddity of this in passing, and suggests unconvincingly that there must have been some special cultural reasons. But the oddity is more overwhelming than he admits. For example, even the word for a flock, as used in Christian discourse, was taken from the Latin (grigje, from grex) - of all the things in the world, the one for which a shepherding population must surely have had its own word already.


The solution to this puzzle is blindingly simple. These elements of Latin vocabulary have undergone exactly the same sorts of sound-changes, compressions and erosions as all the other Latin words which entered the Albanian language over several centuries; and the reason why those words entered the language was that the Albanians were in contact, over a long period, with people who spoke Latin. The existence of large quantities of such Christianity-related Latin vocabulary does not show that someone 'translated' Christian discourse into early Albanian. It shows the precise opposite - namely, that Albanians were for a long time exposed to the conduct of their religion not in translation but in the original Latin.


This can even be demonstrated grammatically. The term for 'Holy Trinity', Shendertat, bears a final 't' and an accent on the last syllable: this shows that it developed from the accusative, sanctam trinitatem, not the nominative, sancta trinitas. That is in fact the normal pattern of development in Romance languages, which gives us, for example, Spanish ciudad from dvitatem (not from civitas), or French mont from montem (not from mons). (There are many other Albanian examples too, such as grigje, mentioned above, which is really from gregem, not grex.) What this phenomenon reflects is a pattern of usage in spoken Latin: these words were heard much more often as the objects in sentences than as the subjects. If Nicetas had been coining new Albanian words out of Latin for the purposes of his translation, he would surely have taken them from the nominative form. These words entered Albanian because Albanians heard them, over and over again, in spoken liturgical Latin. "

What this doesn't explain though, is how Albanians learnt the early Christian non-latin terms "tënëzonë, imzot, hirplotë (which show ancient albanian grammatical features) frymë, i lumë, etc" if they were learning these terms in "spoken liturgical Latin" from "Latin-speaking teacher or teachers".

Why did the Latin liturgy have these Albanian words in them?


Hmm...

Schramm:

Und Niceta war gewiß kein Purist, der bereits geläufigen Übernahmen das Heimatrecht abgesprochen hätte. Aber er wird, wo ihn seine Aufgaben als Übersetzer und als Verfasser eigenständiger hessischer Texte vor das Problem stellte,
wie ein christlicher Inhalt angemessen wiederzugeben sei, lieber auf hessisches Wortgut als auf das Latein zurückgegriffen haben, so vertraut ihm diese Zivilisationssprache auch
sein mochte. Wo aber Niceta und die Fortsetzer seines Werkes auf diese Weise tätig und produktiv wurden, kann man nur hier und da ahnen: so, wenn für credere und credentia
die Erbwörter besoj und bese
(neben fe < fede) eingetreten sind, während resurrectio durch ngjallje, remissio (peccatorum) durch ndjese und temptätiö durch tundim vertreten wird.

Anfänge des albanischen Christentums
Pg 94



Schramm again here makes an interesting argument:

In die Überlegungen einzubeziehen sind Kontrastbeispiele, die ein kraß anderes Bild bieten und sich nicht zuletzt innerhalb der albanischen Sprachgeschichte finden.
Auf Anhieb lehrreich erscheint mir ein Text, der augenfällig macht, was aus dieser Sprache wurde, wenn ihr keinerlei Aufwertung im Rahmen der Kirche widerfuhr und kein
Platz in den Gottesdiensten eingeräumt wurde. Ein junger Mann namens Luca Matranga, was für alb. Leke Matrenga steht, hat, als er sich in den achtziger Jahren des 16. Jh.s auf
die Weihe zum katholischen Priester vorbereitete, einen albanischen Katechismus verfaßt, der 1592 in Rom gedruckt wurde und für die Seelsorge in seinem Heimatmilieu albanischer Flüchtlingsgemeinden auf Sizilien bestimmt war.


Die Albanergruppe, der Matranga entstammte, war aus der Peloponnes übergesiedelt und hatte 1547 in Piana degli Albanesi ihre erste Gemeinde auf italienischem Boden gegründet.
In Griechenland hatten diese Albaner jahrhundertelang an rein griechisch gehaltenen Gottesdiensten teilgenommen. Und von griechischen Seelsorgern waren sie betreut worden.

Vor diesem historischen Hintergrund wird verständlich, warum bei Matranga auch Begriffe wie Trost, auferstehen, Bescheidenheit, verherrlichen, bekennen und Versuchung aus
dem Griechischen entlehnt erscheinen. Hier zeigt sich, daß unter bestimmten Bedingungen die Kraft eines Volkes erlahmen kann, christliche Inhalte mit seinen eigenen Mitteln auszudrücken.

Anfänge des albanischen Christentums
Pg 95


Schramm excellently uses the example of Matranga, who wrote the oldest Tosk christian book, and who comes from a community of Albanians from Greece that migrated to Italy, to
demonstrate how "contaminated" the Albanian christian vocabulary of Matranga is by Greek religious vocabulary because of living in a Greek religious environment.


Schramm:



In the town of Remesiana on the northwestern side of the Bessian mountains, there was an important bishop called Nicetas who lived there in the second half of the fourth century. He had made a name for himself in the Latin Church as a theologian and exemplary preacher. Widely known was a series of sermons he held making information on the faith available to adults who wished to be baptized. One realizes in them how determined Nicetas was that the message of the Church be understood and appreciated as much as possible by those wishing to join it. It was the Gothic bishop Ulfilas who gave him an opportunity to spread this message beyond the mountains where he lived. Ulfilas had fled with his congregation from the region north of the Danube River to the Christian southern side in order to avoid religious persecution. These refugees were resettled on the northern slopes of the Balkan Mountain range, above the fertile valleys, a mere 250-270 kilometres from Remesiana. This immigrant group proved to Nicetas that a Christian mountain people could lead a peaceful existence in the tenets of their faith and serve as pass guards for one of the roads leading over the mountains. The Bishop of Remesiana was also impressed by the missionary zeal of Ulfilas’ congregation to convert the surrounding Germanic and other barbarian tribes. This was dangerous because Ulfilas was a homoousian, i.e. a moderate Arian, whereas Nicetas was a determined supporter of Athanasian Christianity. If he did not convert the Bessians, there was a good chance that Ulfilas or his followers would, and would do so in such a way that Nicetas regarded as blasphemous.


Ulfilas’ surprising charisma was based in good part on the fact that he made Gothic an ecclesiastical language by translating the Bible, or a good part of it, and the liturgy, into that language. This resulted in the rapid success of his mission. The hearts and the minds of the Ostrogothic barbarians who could now attend mass in their language and read the Bible in Gothic, were suddenly more receptive to the new faith than they had been with mass in Latin or Greek. Nicetas had no difficulty following this example because he and most of the people of Remesiana were familiar with Bessian and Latin. Among the texts that he wrote or translated into a language that had never been written down were songs and, most likely, liturgical and biblical texts.


Of course, Nicetas had one disadvantage over Ulfilas, whose followers had already been converted when they emigrated to their new homeland on the lower slopes of the Balkan Mountain range. Nicetas’ Bessian heathens housed in isolated settlements high up among the rugged mountain peaks. As bishop, he would not have been able to spend much time in missionary activities up in the mountains without neglecting his work in Remesiana. However, this disadvantage was compensated for when he conferred to monks and nuns – probably for the first time in the history of Christianity – the task of converting a people systematically to the new faith. These pious men and women abandoned their customs as hermits far from human settlements. Their traditional lifestyle, that arose in the contemplative world of eastern Christianity and was originally focussed on meditation and incessant prayer, received a second calling in new missionary activity. By the end of the fourth century, Bessian monks and nuns from the old-established local population that had just been converted to Christianity were recruited for the new mission. Proof of the swift rise of monastic life and the strength and breadth of its effectiveness is the fact that by the sixth century there were colonies of Bessian monks in Constantinople and – as autonomous monastic communities or subgroups of ethnically mixed monasteries, in the Holy Land. They conducted their monastic activities using their own language for the liturgy.


As such, this people, who were long seen as wild and savage robbers in the remote reaches of the mountains and who terrified the inhabitants of the lower slopes and plains, rose to join the small and illustrious circle of monastic nations who, with a liturgical language of their own, not only pursued an active monastic lifestyle at home but also engaged in pilgrimages. Among other such nations as the Copts, Syrians, Armenians and Georgians, the Bessians were, before the emergence of the Christian Irish in the fifth century, the only Christian group to look westward to Rome."


Noel Malcolm's argument here that we don't have entirely translated Albanian liturgy of words like "flock" would not seem to make sense since Nicetas was not a native Bessian speaker, neither were his monks or nuns that he sent to spread Christianity among the Bessi (in the second half of the 300s AD).
Likewise this argument is weakened by the fact that the absorbtion of latin christian vocabulary from "Roman & Romanised barbarians" as Malcolm mentions would likely have eaten away at their supposed Bessian native liturgy and weakened it (like matrangas' community was hellenized partially by living in greece)

Especially in the zone of Illyria where a latinized Illyrian populace lived.

In the 300s AD, proto-Albanians would have been bi-lingual and at least have understood Latin partially (of the eastern variety shared with Vlachs and Romanians).

So the proto-Albanians could theoritcally have been converted at this time by a latin speaking priest like Nicetas, who partially translated into proto-Albanian, and partially just used the common western latin vocabulary of Christianity (looking westward to rome) of the time.

This would explain why their latin christian vocabulary is of the western strain despite their normal latin being majority of the eastern strain (either that or they converted to christianity after moving west) like romanian & vlach.

This would also explain why Albanian has ancient native non-latin christian terminology, since this would require clergy to at least partially translate terms into proto-Albanian. Lots to think about.


Schramm argued that the Bessians moved into the region of Arbanon at some point, pushed by the invading Slavs.

I think the date he proposes is too late (800s), but what if there was a partial migration west earlier?
FLEjOSrX0AEakxS
 
Schramm argued that the Bessians moved into the region of Arbanon at some point, pushed by the invading Slavs.

I think the date he proposes is too late (800s), but what if there was a partial migration west earlier?

Very interesting. Wasn't the population of the Central Balkans recorded as "infidel" in the census of beliefs of the early Byzantine Empire? This would actually strengthen his opinion since the Slavic invaders had two important advantages over the locals:

1) they were new there and through founder effects and ethnic cleansing of the locals had more than enough fertile soil

2) the newly arrived middle eastern cultural ideology aka Christianity made Old Slavonic a liturgical language which as a result would spread even faster than before and forced conversion leading to locals yet again being expelled from the native soil they are left with.
 
I think the date he proposes is too late (800s), but what if there was a partial migration west earlier?

There were more than likely many migrations or to better say locals seeking refuge in the Central/Southern Balkans. Just think of the "later" one from the 1800s. A 5 minute driveway away from my home is a Katun that consists only of people whose founding ancestors were expelled from Nish. I don't know a single person in Kosovo that does not at least have one, two or many known ancestors that were expelled either from the East, West or Northern Central Balkans.

If this happened in "later" times it sure happened in older times.
 
4YBRMdwJ
View attachment 13092

Horizon of the Late Antiquity Bessi tribe.

Black circles - Archeological Bessian sites from the late 2nd century AD to the late 4th century AD

White circles - Locations where in epigraphic and literary Late Antiquity sources were the Bessoi attested.

Very close to certain early Albanian toponyms (Shtip and Nish), and other suspect Albanian toponyms.
 

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The fetish for some people here to displace Albanians from Albania or the Albanoi is truly mind blowing. Just make up any random batshit theory, the large chunk of which have been disproven, and pretend it's a legitimate alternative.

The Albanoi have been there for over 2000 years. There is no record of them being displaced or any records of a major migration to replace them, and they continued there until the Middle Ages. None of your crying/whining or LOTR lore is going to change anything.
 
4YBRMdwJ
View attachment 13092

Horizon of the Late Antiquity Bessi tribe.

Black circles - Archeological Bessian sites from the late 2nd century AD to the late 4th century AD

White circles - Locations where in epigraphic and literary Late Antiquity sources were the Bessoi attested.

Very close to certain early Albanian toponyms (Shtip and Nish), and other suspect Albanian toponyms.

Why do you never post sources? What is the source of this image, I have asked a hundred times now.
 

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