Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

Why do you never post sources? What is the source of this image, I have asked a hundred times now.

Same thing with Matt-Painted Pottery Culture, reading Aspurg was having different impression but when digging deep into material a completely different pictures was given for that culture. I think he picks what part he prefers.

If Bessis were invaders, why would they pick the language of the invaded ones? We are just running in circles IMO.

 

[Aspurg]

Why do you never post sources? What is the source of this image, I have asked a hundred times now.

From a very good archeologist Aleksandar Bulatović.

https://www.academia.edu/1305850/Re...y_of_prehistoric_traditions_during_the_Roman_

https://www.academia.edu/11617261/H...Serbia_Eastern_Macedonia_and_Western_Bulgaria

Bessi were at that time there, though earlier they were much to the East.

 

[Aspurg]

Same thing with Matt-Painted Pottery Culture, reading Aspurg was having different impression but when digging deep into material a completely different pictures was given for that culture. I think he picks what part he prefers.

If Bessis were invaders, why would they pick the language of the invaded ones? We are just running in circles IMO.

LOL see above.

And regarding the Matt Painted pottery, archeologists Benac and Garašanin can be quoted. Garašanin explained in detail how this pottery does not originate in Greece. It could be South Albanian Brygoi, which is where they lived in BA. Benac excludes any link between the Messapians and Dalmatia rather utilizing Matt Painted pottery and other factors to indicate Messapians came from Albania.

And why is it important for you that Messapians are from Dalmatia? Because Daunians have no V13, and if they came from Albania it means LBA Albania probably had no V13 either..

About this chanelled pottery. I know of some earlier finds from Albania, these are some newer finds, but it was never a dominant culture there. Mati-Glasinac was in the North and this Matt-painted pottery in the South.

 

[Hawk]

LOL see above.

And regarding the Matt Painted pottery, archeologists Benac and Garašanin can be quoted. Garašanin explained in detail how this pottery does not originate in Greece. It could be South Albanian Brygoi, which is where they lived in BA. Benac excludes any link between the Messapians and Dalmatia rather utilizing Matt Painted pottery and other factors to indicate Messapians came from Albania.

And why is it important for you that Messapians are from Dalmatia? Because Daunians have no V13, and if they came from Albania it means LBA Albania probably had no V13 either..

About this chanelled pottery. I know of some earlier finds from Albania, these are some newer finds, but it was never a dominant culture there. Mati-Glasinac was in the North and this Matt-painted pottery in the South.

I have no problem about it, but Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was mostly focused on South Italy, Campania largely untouched by Daunians/Messapians and Greek/Italian archeologists disagree with Garasanin, they give the initial origin point somewhere in Greece spreading in Macedonia/Albania/Epirus. Better said, there is no clear connection.

And that doesn't clear the case whether Daunians or Messapians came from Albania or Dalmatia.

 

[torzio]

I have no problem about it, but Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was mostly focused on South Italy, Campania largely untouched by Daunians/Messapians and Greek/Italian archeologists disagree with Garasanin, they give the initial origin point somewhere in Greece spreading in Macedonia/Albania/Epirus. Better said, there is no clear connection.
And that doesn't clear the case whether Daunians or Messapians came from Albania or Dalmatia.

it was always known in italian history ( by scholars ) that Daunians came from "modern croatia" ..................circa 1000BC ........most likely an area at the time under Liburnian Thassology ..................Liburnian fleet controlled all the adriatic sea at the time, as far south as Liburnian owned Corfu

 

[torzio]

 

[bigsnake49]

i never believed in a 10 year war or a war about helen
it was more like a 10 month trade war ..............Greeks wanted to get into the black sea for trade......they did not want to pay the trojan a fee to enter the black sea , the currents always pull ships to the southern part of the dardanelles
Troy only held between 6 and 8000 people.......armies where not huge in number
Conclusions about the existence and quality of buildings within the confines of the ditch have been drawn on the basis of several trial trenches and excavations, some of them covering a very large surface area. The layout of the city was confirmed by an intensive and systematic pottery survey in 2003. We have also discovered a cemetery outside the ditch to the south. The most recent excavations have determined that Troy, which now covers about seventy-five acres, is about fifteen times larger than previously thought.

75 acres is about the size of our 150 houses development. 6-8000 people is pretty densely populated on 75 acres.

 

[bigsnake49]

Sorry delete please

 

[Johane Derite]

Schramm argued that the Bessians moved into the region of Arbanon at some point, pushed by the invading Slavs.

I think the date he proposes is too late (800s), but what if there was a partial migration west earlier?

Something very important to keep in mind.

The change of /l/ to /r/ in Alb -> Arb (Albanoi to Arbanoi) is a Greek sound change, not an Albanian one.

This means the proto-Albanians had to loan this word from Greek.

This reinforces the adoption of this name by proto-Albanians based on the region of Arbanon.

Source: Brian Joseph, historical linguist and professor, specialist of the Albanian language:

 

[torzio]

75 acres is about the size of our 150 houses development. 6-8000 people is pretty dense populated on 75 acres.

ancient archeology reference in regards to populace is

Early Bronze Age settlements, we know there were 150 people per acre (this is called the population density). We can then calculate the population: 22 acres x 150 people/acre = 3300 people.

so 75 acres can hold over 10000 people

 

[Johane Derite]

Something very important to keep in mind.

The change of /l/ to /r/ in Alb -> Arb (Albanoi to Arbanoi) is a Greek sound change, not an Albanian one.

This means the proto-Albanians had to loan this word from Greek.

This reinforces the adoption of this name by proto-Albanians based on the region of Arbanon.

Source: Brian Joseph, historical linguist and professor, specialist of the Albanian language:

Also important to note from Michiel de Vaan, another linguist specialist of Albanian, at the 6:57 mark is his remark about the location of proto-Albanian homeland.

Namely, he refers to this map in that it must overlap or be somewhere close to the proto-romanian homeland, either the Brown oval (which falls into Dardania and a bit of North Macedonia)
or the Green oval (which falls in Western Thrace)

 

[enter_tain]

Also important to note from Michiel de Vaan, another linguist specialist of Albanian, at the 6:57 mark is his remark about the location of proto-Albanian homeland.

Namely, he refers to this map in that it must overlap or be somewhere close to the proto-romanian homeland, either the Brown oval (which falls into Dardania and a bit of North Macedonia)
or the Green oval (which falls in Western Thrace)

"Alban" is a Latin name. Scotland was called Albania. The Caucauses had an "Albania". Albanoi/Albanopolis are exonyms.

The name "Arben" means plains and it's an Albanian word. Nothing to do with Greeks. Arbaios was recorded as an ancient Greek name in Phoenice before Albanopolis was mentioned, as well as Arbon, Abroi, etc...

 

[Fustan]

The Albanoi have been there for over 2000 years. There is no record of them being displaced or any records of a major migration to replace them, and they continued there until the Middle Ages. None of your crying/whining or LOTR lore is going to change anything.

What would their Y-DNA distribution be, based on pure speculation of course, as we do not have any data/aDNA from ancient Albanian regions.
And I agree, the Albanoi theory is the one that makes the most sense.

 

[enter_tain]

What would their Y-DNA distribution be, based on pure speculation of course, as we do not have any data/aDNA from ancient Albanian regions.
And I agree, the Albanoi theory is the one that makes the most sense.

They would have whatever modern Albanians have (minus some R1a, I1, and I2 branches) but in different frequencies.

The problem with smaller populations is their Y-DNA % proportions can change very rapidly, so it's very hard to predict ancient frequencies.

 

[torzio]

Also important to note from Michiel de Vaan, another linguist specialist of Albanian, at the 6:57 mark is his remark about the location of proto-Albanian homeland.

Namely, he refers to this map in that it must overlap or be somewhere close to the proto-romanian homeland, either the Brown oval (which falls into Dardania and a bit of North Macedonia)
or the Green oval (which falls in Western Thrace)

So they are saying ancient Romanian language before it became Latinized .....................I do not recall ever seeing this Ancient pre-latin Romanian language/dialect

link please if you can

 

[Hawk]

E-V13 looks like the Proto-Albanoid marker, i always suspected it is a language brought by Channeled-Ware people (one of inter-related languages). It fits the narrative based on facts, arguments. Still up to nowadays Beskidy mountains somehow kept this Pre Proto-Albanoid word. Beskidy-Carpathians was the birthplace of this language family during MBA-LBA up until they migrated deeper in Balkans during LBA.

As Derite already pointed out looks like Illyrian J2b2-L283 and whatever other Y-DNA was already Latinized and they are likely the source of heavy Latin substratum in Albanian.

 

[Johane Derite]

Wow, they have removed the original quote where this is taken of to create a false impression and to manipulate because they are so desperate. Even going so far as to fill wiktionary and wikipedia with this trash.

The expression "mal e arbën" is only recorded in Kurbin. This part has conveniently been removed from the quote to create an impression that this meaning is present in all Albanian regions. Typical scumbag behaviour.

This is mentioned in Topalli's etymological dictionary where this idea is taken from. This is not a pan-Albanian expression, but a local expression ni Kurbin (close to where Albanopolis is thought to have been).

Also he then clearly writes that the /Alb-/ is the original earlier documented form, likely related to latin. albus (white).

He writes clearly that the Albanian IE word arë (field) would not develop a /b/ as in /arb-/ and so these cannot be etymologically related.

What he does say is that Albanian speakers may have mixed Albanian. arë with /Alb-/ to produce /Arb-/.

This supports proto-Albanians adopting the Albanoi title and not knowing the original etymology because it was a foreign language to them, so they fuse it with the Albanian. arë.

This happened among other migratory populations in the balkans. For example the Strymonites, a Slav tribe that called themselves after their settlement area in the Strymon river.

Likewise we know that Mat is one of the earliest Albanian settlements, and it is probable this is where the name of the Albanoi became adopted by the proto-Albanians.

Etymologists have already spoken on this matter. Arbën doesn't mean field. Arë means field, the addition of a /b/ for no reason doesn't make sense unless it was a term loaned into albanian as latin. corvus became > korb.

The meaning of Arbën being field is a local term recorded in Kurbin, referring specifically to the field between the river of Mat and Erzen. That is it. It is not a general Albanian term, it is only a local term by locals of the region.

Like someone saying Mal e Dukagjin in a folk song, referring to the plain of Dukagjin. This doesn't mean "Dukagjin" means plain in Albanian.

Trying to smuggle in this bull-sh*t etymology is a sign of pathetic desperation and unwillingness to face the truth.

Alb- is the earliest form of the Albanoi. Either etymologically related to Alb- mountains, or Alb- white.

Laberia demonstrates this as slavs must have learnt it as Albania to have made the metathesis alb -> Lab.

Polybius' and Stephanus of Byzantium's works talk about the croatian island Rab which was Arba in antiquity, and not Albanopolis, again trying to smuggle this reference into the discussion of the Albanoi is a sign of pathetic weakling desperation and damage control.

 

[Illyria]

E-V13 looks like the Proto-Albanoid marker, i always suspected it is a language brought by Channeled-Ware people (one of inter-related languages). It fits the narrative based on facts, arguments. Still up to nowadays Beskidy mountains somehow kept this Pre Proto-Albanoid word. Beskidy-Carpathians was the birthplace of this language family during MBA-LBA up until they migrated deeper in Balkans during LBA.

As Derite already pointed out looks like Illyrian J2b2-L283 and whatever other Y-DNA was already Latinized and they are likely the source of heavy Latin substratum in Albanian.

It could easily be the other way around

Central-Eastern Balkans had heavy Roman influence too, so maybe E-V13 is the reason for heavy Latin substrates in Albanian

The samples they found in eastern Serbia 400AD Roman Era, IIRC, had several E-V13 and only a few J2b2 and R1b. People like Constantine and Justinian, who were Romanized Dardanians, could have been E-V13 Romans too

Wasn't there a paper on Britain that showed E-V13 could have been Romanized mercenaries from the Balkans? These people could have been speaking a heavy Latinized Balkan language on their arrival to Britain..

Can't wait for those upcoming papers, it will answer many questions.

 

[mount123]

Can't wait for those upcoming papers, it will answer many questions.

Me too. Hopefully they will be high resolution samples. I am hoping for more IA Illyrian samples in core Dalmatia and Montenegro but we will see. As for north Dalmatia I am not getting my hopes too high since there will be 35 EMBA samples from the Bezdanjaca cave from which the Croatian scientists sneaked a World War II Slav into the results. Hope they will do better this time and if it happened again that it did not stay unnoticed during the double peer review process. (We want ancient BCE samples not modern ones )

 

[Hawk]

It could easily be the other way around

Central-Eastern Balkans had heavy Roman influence too, so maybe E-V13 is the reason for heavy Latin substrates in Albanian

The samples they found in eastern Serbia 400AD Roman Era, IIRC, had several E-V13 and only a few J2b2 and R1b. People like Constantine and Justinian, who were Romanized Dardanians, could have been E-V13 Romans too

Wasn't there a paper on Britain that showed E-V13 could have been Romanized mercenaries from the Balkans? These people could have been speaking a heavy Latinized Balkan language on their arrival to Britain..

Can't wait for those upcoming papers, it will answer many questions.

Of course it will answer, but both Western Balkans and Eastern were Latinized. Dalmatians and Dacians mostly ended up dying in Italian mines as Roman slaves due to their stubborn wars against Romans. It is the Central Balkans which is a probable candidate. Coastline would have been too much close to Roman attention. And, we have a serious linguist such as Matzinger who collaborated with serious archeologist like Lippert giving us some insights, despite that he seems to be quite up to date with ancient DNA as well.