Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

Am I also a sock puppet because I think Matzinger comes across as an idiot?

You are totally missing the point. Thraco-Illyrian/eat_tain has a tendency of creating a chain of accounts subsequently.

Don't worry, no need to have an identity crisis because E-V13 hasn't shown up yet, the most important regions haven't been tested. You can calm down instead of buying into Derites crazy speculations, I will personally contact a director to make a movie out of his fantastical ideas. Whoever is pumping out those superhero movies every year could surely make a great movie about Albanian speaking peoples in the Trojan wars.

I am not having an identity crisis. I am following reason and evidences so far. I rather think it's the opposite, it's you projecting your own fears. It's you and your buddies coming here replying on rage.

A renowned linguist as Matzinger claims that Albanian is not descended from Illyrian and this triggers us to base models. Unless someone completely rejects his decade worth of study and he admits it, then we all will claim otherwise.

But if E-V13 is not to be found among Illyrian core, and Albanian is not descended from Illyrian, then there you have it. I mean, E-V13 might be found among Illyrians, i am not betting it was not. But if we have to follow material culture then i assume it had minimal presence. Instead you have two groups the Central Balkans derived Channeled-Ware (Triballi, Dardanii, Paeoni and likely Encheleii) and Eastern-Balkans (Daco -Thracians).

Then again, unless Albanian linguistically is proven to have some connection with Armenian and Greek then we will exclude E-V13 as well, and probably R1b-Z2105 will be the sole candidate.

As for Derite, all of these ad-hominems on cycle are meaningless. I don't think he has anything against your line (his maternal line is J2b2-L283 afaik), but of course based on linguistic and genetic evidences he will make assumptions. As for the movies, a movie about Sea People clashing with Ramsess III would be awesome (Battle of Delta was more epic than Trojan War).

 

[Fustan]

You are totally missing the point. Thraco-Illyrian/eat_tain has a tendency of creating a chain of accounts subsequently.

I thought Thraco-Illyrian was against labeling J2-L283 as Illyrian, he more or less has my position in a way, that we need more samples from modern Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo to make conclusions about the Illyrians. I believe et_tain also seems to link E-V13 and R1b-L283 with Greeks which is not something he does I think (and I don't either, btw Greeks don't really have that much E-V13 overall, its actually a misconception).

I am not having an identity crisis. I am following reason and evidences so far. I rather think it's the opposite, it's you projecting your own fears lol.

Nope, no fears after having been here since 2015, have heard the dumbest of theories and all have fallen apart. Illyrian "theory" still holds up.

A renowned linguist as Matzinger claims that Albanian is not descended from Illyrian and this triggers us to base models. Unless someone completely rejects his decade worth of study and he admits it, then we all will claim otherwise.

Unless Albanian linguistically is proven to have some connection with Armenian and Greek then we will exclude E-V13 as well, and probably R1b-Z2105 will be the sole candidate.

Linguistics in regards to Illyrians or proto-Albanians is in the realm of speculation, not science. That said it doesn't mean that Matzinger can't have insights, but he's dealing with (supposedly two separate) languages that are totally undocumented. I find his assertion that Albanian is from some ghost population rather bizarre actually.

I mean, E-V13 might be found among Illyrians, i am not betting it was not. But if we have to follow material culture then i assume it had minimal presence.

Good start. Now just be patient and wait for more samples from Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. Btw I have never claimed that E-V13 is the "defining" haplogroup of the Illyrians, my position is that J2-L283, E-V13 and R-L23 were the main haplogroups which the Illyrians belonged to. They are part of the Illyrian ethnos.

As for Derite, i don't think he has anything against your line (his maternal line is J2b2-L283 afaik), but of course based on linguistic and genetic evidences he will make assumptions. As for the movies, a movie about Sea People clashing with Ramsess III would be awesome (Battle of Delta was more epic than Trojan War).

There's no linguistic evidence. It's all speculation. Which is fine, it's fun to speculate, even I do that, but it's not science, and he is acting like it is. Genetic evidence does not support his theory in any way whatsoever either.

Either way I hope a movie would be made based on whatever is going through Derite's mind.

 

[enter_tain]

Look at you dude, several accounts, and the same pattern of rages toward Matzinger (renowned linguist and respected by all except for you brats) around in posts. Who is desperate?

To me it looks like someone something lied to you, hence your extreme narcissism on not being able to handle things.

Several accounts? Wtf are you talking about?

All the people Johan Derite quotes are proven clowns. John Wilkes literally got bodied this paper. He claimed as a fact that Illyrians were unrelated to one another, and got proven 100% wrong.

This is why I go with Greek/Roman historians over these people trying to sell books. They knew what they were talking about. They grouped Illyrians together for a reason.

 

[enter_tain]

Either way I hope a movie would be made based on whatever is going through Derite's mind.

Albanopolis was Thracian (in the middle of Illyria), and then Asiatic Komanis came over, and then modern Albanians were some random shepherds that took over an entire nation

 

[Fustan]

Albanopolis was Thracian (in the middle of Illyria), and then Asiatic Komanis came over, and then modern Albanians were some random shepherds that took over an entire nation

It's dumb, but aren't you equating the E-V13 in Albanians from Ancient Greeks, or am I interpreting you wrong? Cause if so it's just as big of an error as Derite.

 

[enter_tain]

It's dumb, but aren't you equating the E-V13 in Albanians from Ancient Greeks, or am I interpreting you wrong? Cause if so it's just as big of an error as Derite.

The reality is most Kosovars (not all) are descendants of Gegs who moved there in the last few hundred years. Their dialect is an offshoot of Geg. Geg/Tosk on the other hand split 1500 years ago. My point is that 50% in Kosovars is a recent genetic bottleneck that happened in the last few hundred years. Proto-Albanians were not 50% EV-13.

In reality ancient Albanians/southern Illyrians were probably like 10-20% EV-13, and northern Illyrians probably like 0-10%. EV-13 is just a common marker in the Balkans that ALL southern Balkan populations (Greeks, southern Illyrians, Thracians, Paioenians) would have had.

 

[Hawk]

The reality is most Kosovars (not all) are descendants of Gegs who moved there in the last few hundred years. Their dialect is an offshoot of Geg. Geg/Tosk on the other hand split 1500 years ago. My point is that 50% in Kosovars is a recent genetic bottleneck that happened in the last few hundred years. Proto-Albanians were not 50% EV-13.

Same can be said about J2b2-L283 among Kosovars, i mean even much more than E-V13, because majority of J2b2-L283 carriers come from bottlenecked Krasniqi and Gashi i Gurit. The most common surnames in Kosovo seems to be Krasniqi and Gashi according to some results in social media.

While the so called E-V13 bottleneck was a 11 year old theory by anti-Albanian Greek poster Dienekes Pontikos. The only major initial bottleneck in Kosovo and especially in Ana-Morava/Nish was that of Sop who ruled the Nish/Vranje and Ana-Morava region (certain AbdulKerim Pasha- a Sop ruler of Vranje was a major antagonist/villain of Serbs during Ottoman rule) then came the Berisha dispersing everywhere in Kosovo/North Macedonia/Preshevo after them losing the war with Mahmud Pasha Begolli who won a Pyrrhic victory losing his life and his sons life in return.

If you talk about Berish-Sop in specific, then yes, this lineage doesn't have any relationship with other E-V13 subclades post Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age, we don't really know what is the origin. And they had a bottleneck from XII century onward.

 

[Fustan]

Dude, E-V13 isn't just dominant among Kosovars.. It's almost equal among Malsors and it's huge among Southern Albanians.. And even if it's a bottleneck, then majority of Albanians aren't Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

Dude, E-V13 isn't just dominant among Kosovars.. It's almost equal among Malsors and it's huge among Southern Albanians.. And even if it's a bottleneck, then majority of Albanians aren't Illyrians.

Simply referring to the 50% EV-13. That's clearly a recent effect. All the Balkans has like 20 something% EV-13 or whatever.

 

[Hawk]

I don't know about Southern Illyrians what Y-DNA they had, if i had to guess: J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7562, some E-V13, J2a, I2a2-M223 maybe.

Material culture of tumuli burial in inhumation (in specific Illyrian manner, characteristic of them) doesn't support any E-V13 incursion, perhaps the Trebeniste Culture people were E-V13, people like Enchelei, Dassareti, Pirusti who seem to have used cremation on a pyre on top of a tumuli burial rite during Early Iron Age.

But then again, archeology can miss a lot of things. We simply don't know yet. But the point is, if Matzinger is right then we should look for Proto-Albanoids in Central Balkans among other material cultures.

Matzinger/Lippert in their new archeology section totally refuse any Danubian Urnfield influence on Illyrians but they specify only Glasinac-Mat whereas Albanian archeologists said that Illyrians formed by fusion of atleast 4 material cultures but the two most important ones were first Glasinac-Mat and then Trebeniste Culture, Lippert in his 2018 paper was leaning towards more like core EBA/MBA continuation with strong Danubian Urnfield influence but he dropped that opinion on favor of Albanian archeologists like Frano Prendi, Muzafer Korkuti and Yugoslav Mario Gavranovic.

 

[enter_tain]

Same can be said about J2b2-L283 among Kosovars, i mean even much more than E-V13, because majority of J2b2-L283 carriers come from bottlenecked Krasniqi and Gashi i Gurit.

While the so called E-V13 bottleneck was a 11 year old theory by anti-Albanian Greek poster Dienekes Pontikos. The only major initial bottleneck in Kosovo and especially in Ana-Morava/Nish was that of Sop who ruled the Nish/Vranje and Ana-Morava region then came the Berisha.

If you talk about Berish-Sop in specific, then yes, this lineage doesn't have any relationship with other E-V13 subclades post Late Bronze Age, we don't really know what is the origin.

There was no clear distinction between Kosovo and northern Albania up until 100 years ago. That's why northern Albanians dominated that entire region. But it's quite clear they moved in heavy numbers in that region, since that dialect is an offshoot off of the northern Albanian Geg.

 

[enter_tain]

But the point is, if Matzinger is right then we should look for Proto-Albanoids in Central Balkans among other material cultures.

Yeah you can go look for them. All the recent papers showed that they're related, but not the same, because they have extra components that don't exist in Albanians.

 

[mount123]

Same can be said about J2b2-L283 among Kosovars, i mean even much more than E-V13, because majority of J2b2-L283 carriers come from bottlenecked Krasniqi and Gashi i Gurit. The most common surnames in Kosovo seems to be Krasniqi and Gashi according to some results in social media.

While the so called E-V13 bottleneck was a 11 year old theory by anti-Albanian Greek poster Dienekes Pontikos. The only major initial bottleneck in Kosovo and especially in Ana-Morava/Nish was that of Sop who ruled the Nish/Vranje and Ana-Morava region (certain AbdulKerim Pasha- a Sop ruler of Vranje was a major antagonist/villain of Serbs during Ottoman rule) then came the Berisha dispersing everywhere in Kosovo/North Macedonia/Preshevo after them losing the war with Mahmud Pasha Begolli who won a Pyrrhic victory losing his life and his sons life in return.

If you talk about Berish-Sop in specific, then yes, this lineage doesn't have any relationship with other E-V13 subclades post Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age, we don't really know what is the origin. And they had a bottleneck from XII century onward.

Lol Dardha aka Kamenica is filled with Kastrati and Korbi people. Linking all J2b-L283 in Kosovo to Krasniqi and those Krasniqis in Western Kosovo that integrated into the Gashi tribe is quite pathetic. We have a solid number of represented J2b-L283 tribes in Kosovo: Krasniqi, Kastrat, Hoti, Korbi.

 

[mount123]

I don't know about Southern Illyrians what Y-DNA they had, if i had to guess: J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7562, some E-V13, J2a, I2a2-M223 maybe.

Material culture of tumuli burial in inhumation (in specific Illyrian manner, characteristic of them) doesn't support any E-V13 incursion, perhaps the Trebeniste Culture people were E-V13, people like Enchelei, Dassareti, Pirusti who seem to have used cremation on a pyre on top of a tumuli burial rite during Early Iron Age.

But then again, archeology can miss a lot of things. We simply don't know yet. But the point is, if Matzinger is right then we should look for Proto-Albanoids in Central Balkans among other material cultures.

Matzinger/Lippert in their new archeology section totally refuse any Danubian Urnfield influence on Illyrians but they specify only Glasinac-Mat, Lippert in his 2018 paper was leaning towards more like core EBA/MBA continuation with strong Danubian Urnfield influence but he dropped that opinion on favor of Albanian archeologists like Frano Prendi, Muzafer Korkuti and Yugoslav Mario Gavranovic.

What's up with all of this speculation...reality is that the vast majority of Illyrian samples so far are J2b-L283. R1b-PF7562 has by all means a more eastern pathway.

 

[Hawk]

Lol Dardha aka Kamenica is filled with Kastrati and Korbi people. Linking all J2b-L283 in Kosovo to Krasniqi and those Krasniqis in Western Kosovo that integrated into the Gashi tribe is quite pathetic. We have a solid number of represented J2b-L283 tribes in Kosovo: Krasniqi, Kastrat, Hoti, Korbi.

I have a friend Korbi, and a friend Kastrati btw.

But, in comparison with Krasniqi and Gashi i Gurit they are in small numbers. I didn't said that all of them are due to those two tribes lol.

What's up with all of this speculation...reality is that the vast majority of Illyrian samples so far are J2b-L283.

R1b-PF7562 has by all means a more eastern pathway.

Someone mentioned a leak coming from North Albania Early Bronze Age, one sample being R1b-PF7562, and during Middle Bronze Age one sample being J2b2-L283. So, i assume R1b-PF7562 to still be present.

 

[mount123]

Simply referring to the 50% EV-13. That's clearly a recent effect. All the Balkans has like 20 something% EV-13 or whatever.

How do you explain the extreme southern shift of Albanians autosomally compared to our paternal Illyrian ancestors? Everything points to one simple reality: J2b-L283 and that Balkan E1b-V13 and the R1b-Z270 symbiosis being two completly different populations with different pathways that at some point in antiquity merged into one group whilst a thracian like southern shiftet autosomal DNA profile definitley dominated in the outcome population.

 

[mount123]

I have a friend Korbi, and a friend Kastrati btw.

But, in comparison with Krasniqi and Gashi i Gurit they are in small numbers. I didn't said that all of them are due to those two tribes lol.

My moms side is Korbi and their roots run deep in Eastern Kosovo. That is the equivalent of me only naming Berisha-Sopi cluster when it comes to E-V13 in Kosovo or Shala when it comes to R1b-Z2705.

 

[Johane Derite]

How do you explain the extreme southern shift of Albanians autosomally compared to our paternal Illyrian ancestors? Everything points to one simple reality: J2b-L283 and that Balkan E1b-V13 and the R1b-Z270 symbiosis being two completly different populations with different pathways that at some point in antiquity merged into one group whilst a thracian like southern shiftet autosomal DNA profile definitley dominated in the outcome population.

Obviously such an autosomal shift points to language shift also.

 

[mount123]

Obviosly such an autosomal shift points to language shift also.

That is a possibility. But is Illyrian really a well documented language or Thracian or Dacian or any other Paleo-Balkan language for that matter (other than the modern ones descending from a Paleo-Balkan language). I don't really think any conclusions can been drawn until we also have factual linguistic evidence in addition to the much more clearer picture we got from Illyrians and IA Thracians when it comes to their genetics.

 

[Hawk]

My moms side is Korbi and their roots run deep in Eastern Kosovo. That is the equivalent of me only naming Berisha-Sopi cluster when it comes to E-V13 in Kosovo or Shala when it comes to R1b-Z2705.

Well, their roots originally are in Kukes where you have Korbi still there. And they claim that they are Thaq by fis, but Thaqi seems to be E-V13 => L241 originally, but then somehow they became quite mixed brotherhood in Kosovo.

Even Sopi claimed to be Thaq by fis, but was totally wrong, no one imagined they share the same paternal line with Berishas.