Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[broder]

Speaking of Wilkes, he lost all his credibility to my opinion when he stated that Albanians couldn’t be descendants of Illyrians based on their short stature. Some of the tallest Illyrian remains ranged from 1.68 to 1.72..

I mean, how can you even base your thesis on such a claim when it’s universally known that height can drastically fluctuate within few generations.

Back then there wasn’t much anthropological data on modern Albanians, but Coon’s book was around.

 

[torzio]

Wilkes argues that the proto-Albanians were nomadic shepherd (transhumance) migrants.


Noel Malcolm argues a similar point, that these proto-Albanian migrants originated from the highlands in the Kosovo region before expanding into Albania.

Noel Malcolm is pretty clear that the proto-Albanians were shepherds living in the higher grounds, similar to Wilkes.


Like Wilkes, he also refers to the Latin speaking peoples that penetrated even into remote areas into the Northern Albanian mountains.

What script is Matzinger using as Illyrian ? ..............I do not know German language


If he is using Messapic ................then there are 2 option
1 - messapic went to Italy with the Daunians , who belong to the Iapodes tribe found north of the Liburnians and are a celtinized illyrian tribe

or

2 - Messapic was created when Daunian arrived with the Illyrian language and mixed with the local Italic tribes they absorbed into their society to create this language Messapic

either way ....Matzinger is using a language from celtinized Illyrian tribes


What is celtinized Illyrian ................all Illyrian tribes that Pliny ( roman historian ) did not mark as Illyrian proper .....................Pliny also states them as Southern Illyrians

There are only about 6 of these non-celtinized Illyrian tribes in Pliny , Illyrian proper

or as part of Pliny census of the illyrian ....about 20% are "illyrian proper" and 80% are celtinized Illyrian ...............he does not count the Liburnians and also at that time the Histrians where joined with the Venetics in being part of Roman province number 10

 

[mount123]

Speaking of Wilkes, he lost all his credibility to my opinion when he stated that Albanians couldn’t be descendants of Illyrians based on their short stature. Some of the tallest Illyrian remains ranged from 1.68 to 1.72..

I mean, how can you even base your thesis on such a claim when it’s universally known that height can drastically fluctuate within few generations.


Back then there wasn’t much anthropological data on modern Albanians, but Coon’s book was around.

That is what I mean... you have these "scholars" that try to determine ancient origins with falsely claimed phenotypes. Both my father's and paternal mother's line are Illyrian (J2b-L283). I am 1.90m tall have dark golden blond hair and light green eyes. These "scholars" also tried to link Balkan Slavs, with up 70%+ Slavic Y DNA in their countries and a strong Slavic autosomal DNA profile, to Illyrians because they supposedly fit the unknown Illyrian phenotype more, which they ABSOLUTELY don't.

 

[Johane Derite]

Albanian speaking peoples in the Trojan wars.

Dardanians & Mysians were both in Troy and in the Balkans. This is known by ancient and contemporary scholars /historians.

Noel Malcolm, a scholar knighted by the Queen of England for his work, argues that the proto-Albanians were Dardani shepherds in the Kosovo region.

It was based of his work that my interest in the Dardanians began.

If the proto-Albanian language comes from the Dardani, and the Dardani are related ethnically to the Dardanoi of Troy, then it is not a complicated deduction to make that some of them there must really have been speaking Albanian related language.

If we are looking for proto-Albanian linguistic material, and there exists a chance it might exist in Troy from the Dardanoi tribes, then it has to be part of the investigation also. To leave it out would be sloppy and not rigorous.

Comparable to the Albanian origin leaders in the Ottoman Empire, Muhammad Ali of Egypt, or the Arvanite tribes that were military leaders in the Greek revolution, some Dardanians might have been militarliy important in the Trojan war and their efforts were imprinted into history like some of the figures mentioned earlier.

 

[Hawk]

Dardanians & Mysians were both in Troy and in the Balkans. This is known by ancient and contemporary scholars /historians.

Noel Malcolm, a scholar knighted by the Queen of England for his work, argues that the proto-Albanians were Dardani shepherds in the Kosovo region.

It was based of his work that my interest in the Dardanians began.

If the proto-Albanian language comes from the Dardani, and the Dardani are related ethnically to the Dardanoi of Troy, then it is not a complicated deduction to make that some of them there must really have been speaking Albanian related language.

If we are looking for proto-Albanian linguistic material, and there exists a chance it might exist in Troy from the Dardanoi tribes, then it has to be part of the investigation also. To leave it out would be sloppy and not rigorous.

Comparable to the Albanian origin leaders in the Ottoman Empire, Muhammad Ali of Egypt, or the Arvanite tribes that were military leaders in the Greek revolution, some Dardanians might have been militarliy important in the Trojan war and their efforts were imprinted into history like some of the figures mentioned earlier.

Homer's Iliad aside, how we know Dardanians were really in Western Anatolia, is that they are listed as Hittite allies in the battle of Kadesh. I would be surprised if both Balkan Dardanians and Anatolian Dardanian names were unrelated and totally random.

 

[mount123]

Well, their roots originally are in Kukes where you have Korbi still there. And they claim that they are Thaq by fis, but Thaqi seems to be E-V13 => L241 originally, but then somehow they became quite mixed brotherhood in Kosovo.

Even Sopi claimed to be Thaq by fis, but was totally wrong, no one imagined they share the same paternal line with Berishas.

These are just migration patterns. One fis being displaced and seeking refuge in another fis' territory or for whatever other reason. My grandpa refuses any as he says "migration tale" claims and actually very often argues with some distant kusherin who claim to be thaq. Original Thaqi are without a doubt E1b-L241 (from my knowledge they are also more present in Skenderaj and Gllogoc?).

 

[mount123]

Dardanians & Mysians were both in Troy and in the Balkans. This is known by ancient and contemporary scholars /historians.

Noel Malcolm, a scholar knighted by the Queen of England for his work, argues that the proto-Albanians were Dardani shepherds in the Kosovo region.

It was based of his work that my interest in the Dardanians began.

If the proto-Albanian language comes from the Dardani, and the Dardani are related ethnically to the Dardanoi of Troy, then it is not a complicated deduction to make that some of them there must really have been speaking Albanian related language.

If we are looking for proto-Albanian linguistic material, and there exists a chance it might exist in Troy from the Dardanoi tribes, then it has to be part of the investigation also. To leave it out would be sloppy and not rigorous.

Comparable to the Albanian origin leaders in the Ottoman Empire, Muhammad Ali of Egypt, or the Arvanite tribes that were military leaders in the Greek revolution, some Dardanians might have been militarliy important in the Trojan war and their efforts were imprinted into history like some of the figures mentioned earlier.

Aren't the Dardanii Illyrian? Or at least their leaders listed as Illyrian?

 

[Johane Derite]

The top 5 surnames in Kosova since the 40s. Not all people with tribal surnames descend from the tribe, but majority do.

 

[Hawk]

Krasniqi seems to be in majority J2b2-L283 while Gashi a bit more mixed, with Gashi i Gurit J2b2-L283 and Gash-Bardhi E-V13 => L241.

Morina and Shala in Kosove seem to be quite heterogenous.

 

[mount123]

The top 5 surnames in Kosova since the 40s. Not all people with tribal surnames descend from the tribe, but majority do.

The only subclade of Krasniqis in Albania are the Curri the other subclades live overwhelmingly in Kosovo myself included. This tribal map is also very much outdated lol and also proposes a northern migration pattern of J2b-L283 which never happened (quite the opposite happened).

 

[Johane Derite]

Albanians were some random shepherds that took over an entire nation

That is exactly what you are claiming about Kosova Albanians:

The reality is most Kosovars (not all) are descendants of Gegs who moved there in the last few hundred years.

 

[Johane Derite]

As for the Kosova dialect i.e Northeast Gegë, it begins in Puka, Albania

 

[mount123]

Krasniqi seems to be in majority J2b2-L283 while Gashi a bit more mixed, with Gashi i Gurit J2b2-L283 and Gash-Bardhi E-V13 => L241.

Morina and Shala in Kosove seem to be quite heterogenous.

The biggest J2b-L283 tribes in Kosovo are: Krasniqi (mostly Rrafshi Prishtines), Kastrati (mostly Dardha aka Kamenica), Hoti (mostly West Kosovo which is not a surprise) and Korbi (mostly East Kosovo).

The three Gash t'gurit that tested J2b-L283 fall under the Krasniqi clade so most likely integrated into the real Thaqi Tribe being E1b-L241.

 

[mount123]

If we see the distribution of Komani-Kruja culture and compare it to Latin placenames and inscriptions, we see that there is an overlap. Interestingly, the presence of Komani-Kruja culture necropolis in Corfu has fit an argument for Proto-Albanian speaking culture, but a Latinised local population is totally feasible.

Likewise we see a pocket on the south west Tosk regions (Lab regions) where some Greco-Illyrian placenames persisted and where we find Latin inscriptoins as well as Greek ones. Possibly this is related to why there is a higher L283 presence in South West Albania compared to other Tosk regions?

Is there any evidence of this culture in Kosovo? My paternal grandfather’s sister (halla jeme) always raised us to celebrate the winter solstice ("Dimnor"). She used to decorate the door of my parents' house with spruce branches on the day of the solstice and left them there for three days. While this celebration and customs remind me a lot of the Roman Saturnaliae, it is also documented that the Illyrians also celebrated the winter solstice.

 

[Johane Derite]

Is there any evidence of this culture in Kosovo? My paternal grandfather’s sister (halla jeme) always raised us to celebrate the winter solstice ("Dimnor"). She used to decorate the door of my parents' house with spruce branches on the day of the solstice and left them there for three days. While this celebration and customs remind me a lot of the Roman Saturnaliae, it is also documented that the Illyrians also celebrated the winter solstice.

Not that I'm aware of. But the solstice festivals were common to many IE groups, Thracians also had them, etc. Also our ancestors were Christian for a thousand years before islam, so many such traditions also entered via roman christian syncretisms.

The closest culture to Komani-Kruja culture is in Dalmatia in where Dalmatians (latin speaking locals) lived.

 

[enter_tain]

That is exactly what you are claiming about Kosova Albanians:

How is that "exactly" what I am claiming? Kosovars speak Geg. That means they're just an extension of northern Albanians. Geg/Tosk split happened around Shkumbin 1500 years ago.

 

[enter_tain]

That is what I mean... you have these "scholars" that try to determine ancient origins with falsely claimed phenotypes. Both my father's and paternal mother's line are Illyrian (J2b-L283). I am 1.90m tall have dark golden blond hair and light green eyes. These "scholars" also tried to link Balkan Slavs, with up 70%+ Slavic Y DNA in their countries and a strong Slavic autosomal DNA profile, to Illyrians because they supposedly fit the unknown Illyrian phenotype more, which they ABSOLUTELY don't.

Lol same. I'm 6"3 and Illyrians were like 5"6. But I'm too short to be descendant of the tall Illyrians

The last paper debunked him completely. Illyrians were one group of people. Their patrilineality proves it.

Like I said, the Greek/Roman historians were 1000x more accurate than any modern "scholar". The Romans even measured Illyria by ship (said to be 1000 km long).

 

[enter_tain]

Homer's Iliad aside, how we know Dardanians were really in Western Anatolia, is that they are listed as Hittite allies in the battle of Kadesh. I would be surprised if both Balkan Dardanians and Anatolian Dardanian names were unrelated and totally random.

They're about as related as Caucasian Albanians and regular Albanians or Scottish Albanians. Like I stated, these are all exonyms. We don't know the exact same form of their name. We can only do broad linguistic analysis.

The pattern that emerges is that all Illyrian tribes were related to the Albanian language through animals/plants

Delminium -> Dele (also Delvine in Albania today)
Taulanti -> Dallandyshe ("Swallow men"/Khelidoni is what a sister/adjacent tribe was called by the Greeks)
Ulqin -> Ulk
Dardani -> Dardhe
Brindisi -> Bri
Encheleide -> Ngjale

Both Bardhe/Dardhe are of Illyrian descent. The Dardanians and Taulanti were allies and fought side by side.

 

[Hawk]

They're about as related as Caucasian Albanians and regular Albanians or Scottish Albanians. Like I stated, these are all exonyms. We don't know the exact same form of their name. We can only do broad linguistic analysis.

The pattern that emerges is that all Illyrian tribes were related to the Albanian language through animals/plants

Delminium -> Dele (also Delvine in Albania today)
Taulanti -> Dallandyshe ("Swallow men"/Khelidoni is what a sister/adjacent tribe was called by the Greeks)
Ulqin -> Ulk
Dardani -> Dardhe
Brindisi -> Bri
Encheleide -> Ngjale

Both Bardhe/Dardhe are of Illyrian descent. The Dardanians and Taulanti were allies and fought side by side.

The confusion of Dardanian and Taulantii relationship stems from the fact that a certain tribe named Peresadyes were ruling elite among both Dardanians and Taulantii according to Hammond, and these were represented in Trebeniste Culture. The Peresadyes name seem to be linked with certain names of Odrysian Thracians (one of Spartokid Kings named Peresadyes, Odrysian Prince Berisades/Peresadyes), probably a deeper connection with them in Early Iron Age. But by Classical Antuiqity they were more of a Thraco-Illyrian admixed tribe. So a Belegis-Gava/Channeled-Ware ancestry of them is probable, they admixed with Glasinac-Mat Illyrians.

In Troy after destruction, you find all over the place archeologically traces of Channeled-Ware/Gava tribes. So, connection is quite possible.

 

[mount123]

Lol same. I'm 6"3 and Illyrians were like 5"6. But I'm too short to be descendant of the tall Illyrians

The last paper debunked him completely. Illyrians were one group of people. Their patrilineality proves it.

Like I said, the Greek/Roman historians were 1000x more accurate than any modern "scholar". The Romans even measured Illyria by ship (said to be 1000 km long).

To be honest would not be surprised if the Illyrian patrilineage (J2b-L283) is responsible for the lighter phenotype in North Albanians and Kosovars as opposed to the more darker phenotype of middle and south Albania (not going to mention Arvanites as they are dark af). After all I do think that we most likely did inherit that more northern shifted Illyrian look to some degree for sure.