Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Aspurg]

If you remove a lot of EEF from Bulgarian IA, you get close to Ukranian-like populations. Slavs are not aliens, because Thracians/Dacians would have been very close to them geographically. They are satem languages. (Albanian has been considered only a partially satemized language).

Like I've been saying over and over, you remove Slavic ancestry from modern Albanians (and northern Greeks), and you get close to Mycenean Greeks. Proto-Albanians were a classic southern/southwestern Balkans population.

Nobody knows whether autosomal profile of Myceneans even existed later.. Greek Empuries sample, much later and therefore more relevant looked even more Southern than Myceneans.

Slavs didn't live in Ukraine, they lived in the Pripyat swamps to the North.

And Getae bordered Scythians, not Slavs.

Slav-like proper source has nothing to do with any IE Steppe group.. Similar results can be easily obtained through some IE sample..

All of this is irrelevant. There are 3 early Iron Age Bulgarian V13 samples, there is one LIA V13 sample, only one IA Bulgarian sample is not V13.. There is Getae/Moldovan Scythain sample who belonged (or was descended) to a culture related to those Bulgarian V13 samples. All of these come from the Iron Gates are, from a culture descended of Gava culture where a more Steppe influenced E1b1b1a was found in LBA. And anything you or anybody else could possibly say is a complete crap compared to this string of evidence.

Same as I knew those Dalmatian Illyrians were going to be J2b2 based on MBA sample, it is also known what V13 affinity is. It doesn't mean some are not Illyrian. And Pannonian Scythains are one of primary vectors of bringing some V13 into Illyrian areas, alongside earlier Basarabi-related movements.

But that is not the point. Albanian is not Illyrian, mr. descendant of Latin speakers from Komani-Kruja culture.

 

[enter_tain]

Nobody knows whether autosomal profile of Myceneans even existed later.. Greek Empuries sample, much later and therefore more relevant looked even more Southern than Myceneans.

Slavs didn't live in Ukraine, they lived in the Pripyat swamps to the North.

And Getae bordered Scythians, not Slavs.

Slav-like proper source has nothing to do with any IE Steppe group.. Similar results can be easily obtained through some IE sample..

All of this is irrelevant. There are 3 early Iron Age Bulgarian V13 samples, there is one LIA V13 sample, only one IA Bulgarian sample is not V13.. There is Getae/Moldovan Scythain sample who belonged (or was descended) to a culture related to those Bulgarian V13 samples. All of these come from the Iron Gates are, from a culture descended of Gava culture where a more Steppe influenced E1b1b1a was found in LBA. And anything you or anybody else could possibly say is a complete crap compared to this string of evidence.

Same as I knew those Dalmatian Illyrians were going to be J2b2 based on MBA sample, it is also known what V13 affinity is. It doesn't mean some are not Illyrian. And Pannonian Scythains are one of primary vectors of bringing some V13 into Illyrian areas, alongside earlier Basarabi-related movements.

But that is not the point. Albanian is not Illyrian, mr. descendant of Latin speakers from Komani-Kruja culture.

Maciamo made an entire article of J2B2 and Illyrians after that 1 sample, and this guy wants to pretend like it was his idea.

Go read it, it's been there for years.

 

[Riverman]

IA Thracians are not Proto-Thracians. I'm talking about the population ancestral to the Thracians that settled there. When Proto-Greeks, Proto-Illyrians, Proto-Thracians/Dacians, moved to the Balkans, they mixed with local EEF-heavy/Minoan-like people.

If you make Bulgarian IA less EEF/Neolithic Balkanic, you get an ancestral proto population similar to the northern Slavs.

We already have a couple of samples from Channelled Ware people, which might have spread Proto-Thracian, and even those to the very North, Kyjatice and G?va, while being definitely more Northern and closer to Balto-Slavs, are still within the Pannonian variation. If you add to those admixture from more Southern groups, which they assimilated, you get close to what we will find. In the East and the Lower Danube, for whatever reasons, they just mixed more and the ratio of the locals was higher. The question is just was E-V13 brought from the G?va source region or picked up in the Banat or at the Lower Danube, from local contexts which produced the descendants of G?va, Belegis II-G?va and Fluted Ware horizon/Knobbed Ware in Bulgaria. From the latter Psenichevo-Basarabi emerged, which is just the Daco-Thracian horizon. And at that point we are already touching historically attested speakers of these dialects.
Both Eastern Hungary, Northern Serbia and Bulgaria were part of this zone and in all those places E-V13 was found.
We just need more samples from Romania and Moldova to close the gap.

The original Proto-Thracians might have been a mix of Lengyel derived Neolithics with increased WHG, from which E-V13 came from, steppe people, especially Epi-Corded, related to Nitra and Unetice, as well as other groups from Pannonia, like Encrusted Pottery later, which led to an increase of Neolithic ancestry, the more South they went. Point is, the common origin of Balto-Slavic and Proto-Thracian might be real, its coming from the Epi-Corded horizon which transformed the local Carpathian population, probably Lengyel derived.

 

[enter_tain]

We already have a couple of samples from Channelled Ware people, which might have spread Proto-Thracian, and even those to the very North, Kyjatice and G�va, while being definitely more Northern and closer to Balto-Slavs, are still within the Pannonian variation. If you add to those admixture from more Southern groups, which they assimilated, you get close to what we will find. In the East and the Lower Danube, for whatever reasons, they just mixed more and the ratio of the locals was higher. The question is just was E-V13 brought from the G�va source region or picked up in the Banat or at the Lower Danube, from local contexts which produced the descendants of G�va, Belegis II-G�va and Fluted Ware horizon/Knobbed Ware in Bulgaria. From the latter Psenichevo-Basarabi emerged, which is just the Daco-Thracian horizon. And at that point we are already touching historically attested speakers of these dialects.
Both Eastern Hungary, Northern Serbia and Bulgaria were part of this zone and in all those places E-V13 was found.
We just need more samples from Romania and Moldova to close the gap.

The original Proto-Thracians might have been a mix of Lengyel derived Neolithics with increased WHG, from which E-V13 came from, steppe people, especially Epi-Corded, related to Nitra and Unetice, as well as other groups from Pannonia, like Encrusted Pottery later, which led to an increase of Neolithic ancestry, the more South they went. Point is, the common origin of Balto-Slavic and Proto-Thracian might be real, its coming from the Epi-Corded horizon which transformed the local Carpathian population, probably Lengyel derived.

Yep. And btw, I didn't say Proto-Thracians were identical to Slavs or anything. Just said they were "Slavic-like".

 

[Aspurg]

Maciamo made an entire article of J2B2 and Illyrians after that 1 sample, and this guy wants to pretend like it was his idea.

Go read it, it's been there for years.

Maciamo didn't write anything about the culture where it was found. Taking one sample as a measure is risky unless other factors point to that. As Dalmatians and Glasinac were descended of this culture I said IA Illyrians will also show it. I said first that it was found in Posušje culture, and for this Z638 sample. People often go around presenting these MBA samples as "Cetina culture" which is totally false. If it was found in Cetina culture, it wouldn't have had that many descendants as that culture largely disappeared after. But we may get soon some Cetina and other samples..

And remember this: E-V13 are not Thracians, E-V13 (or most clades) are proto-Thracians who brought the Thracian language to the Balkans 3000 years ago. There is a big difference between the two.

In the similar capacity J-L283 is Illyrian, R-U106 Germanic, R-U152 being Celto-Italic etc.

 

[Aspurg]

Yep. And btw, I didn't say Proto-Thracians were identical to Slavs or anything. Just said they were "Slavic-like".

But they weren't "Slavic like". Not one Gava sample from the Pannonian study is Slavic-like, E1b1b1a sample is more Northern, but not Slavic like even remotely. Closer to Germanics in all likelihood. Some other samples are more Southern.

I have just been looking at Slavic-like samples from Chernoles culture (Slavic-like Scythian) and they are not that Slavic like either. Slavic autosomal profile must have formed after in Pripyat with some extra Hunter Gatherer admixture.

 

[enter_tain]

But they weren't "Slavic like". Not one Gava sample from the Pannonian study is Slavic-like, E1b1b1a sample is more Northern, but not Slavic like even remotely. Closer to Germanics in all likelihood. Some other samples are more Southern.

I have just been looking at Slavic-like samples from Chernoles culture (Slavic-like Scythian) and they are not that Slavic like either. Slavic autosomal profile must have formed after in Pripyat with some extra Hunter Gatherer admixture.

What are you going on about? Proto-Thracians existed like 4-5 thousand years ago. Stop making me waste my breath.

It's like some people here don't understand the basics of Indo-European migrations.

 

[enter_tain]

Maciamo didn't write anything about the culture where it was found. Taking one sample as a measure is risky unless other factors point to that. As Dalmatians and Glasinac were descended of this culture I said IA Illyrians will also show it. I said first that it was found in Posušje culture, and for this Z638 sample. People often go around presenting these MBA samples as "Cetina culture" which is totally false. If it was found in Cetina culture, it wouldn't have had that many descendants as that culture largely disappeared after. But we may get soon some Cetina and other samples..

And remember this: E-V13 are not Thracians, E-V13 (or most clades) are proto-Thracians who brought the Thracian language to the Balkans 3000 years ago. There is a big difference between the two.

In the similar capacity J-L283 is Illyrian, R-U106 Germanic, R-U152 being Celto-Italic etc.

Do you understand 1 culture =/= 1 Y-DNA? Beakers originally had no IE DNA originally, and later became very IE. You lack a basic understanding of archeology.

 

[Riverman]

Yep. And btw, I didn't say Proto-Thracians were identical to Slavs or anything. Just said they were "Slavic-like".

We don't know what Proto-Baltoslavs really were. At this point, we don't know much more about them than about Proto-Thracians. Actually, we have from all sources better knowledge of Proto-Thracians and early Daco-Thracians than Proto-Slavs and early Slavs!

The connection to the Pannonians being clear and mentioned recently by David:
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/01/para-turbo-balto-slavic.html

The direction of which is not clear at this point, because we have early Romanian Copper Age samples, very bad quality unfortunately, with very high WHG ancestry. And of course a general lack of Romanian samples to begin with. Both Slavs and Thracians came about due to admixture with different people in between, in the case of Thracians they mixed with more Neolithic inhabitants, in the case of Balto-Slavics they mixed with more HG rich and Corded-like inhabitants of the North East. They were different all the time, because Proto-Thracians, rich in E-V13, emerged after Epi-Corded groups mixed into Pannonian more heavy Neolithic-WHG rich ones, but there probably were still contacts of an intensive nature, depending on the position of Lusatians, to which the G?va people, even more Kyjatice, were close to.

But they weren't "Slavic like". Not one Gava sample from the Pannonian study is Slavic-like, E1b1b1a sample is more Northern, but not Slavic like even remotely. Closer to Germanics in all likelihood. Some other samples are more Southern.

I have just been looking at Slavic-like samples from Chernoles culture (Slavic-like Scythian) and they are not that Slavic like either. Slavic autosomal profile must have formed after in Pripyat with some extra Hunter Gatherer admixture.

Kyjatice being more Western and Northern might have been more intermediate probably. At least the single sample (BR2, J2a carrier), being more Northern/North Eastern than G?va. They probably had closer ties to groups like Nitra and Unetice, later Lusatians, while the G?va group got less of that influence from the North in comparison?

 

[Johane Derite]

Some important quotes from Noel Malcolm on how the proto-Albanians were nomadic shepherds:


"linguists can often construct quite a detailed chronology, just like an archeologist examining different layers of wood-ash and broken pots.

They can point out, for example, that the Albanian names for the fauna and flora of the high mountain regions are purely Albanian, while the low-altitude vocabulary borrows heavily from Slav; the words for ploughing are mainly Slav, and so are many words for weaving, masonry and milling.

Much of the vocabulary of medieval government and society is also Slav-based.

This strongly suggests that the early Albanians led a mainly pastoral life in mountainous regions, before settling in lowland areas after the Slavs had extended their culture and rule.

And the evidence of place-names shows that Albanian-Slav contacts in the northern Albanian region must have happened before 900 at the latest: a vowel-shift in the Slav language took place by the end of the ninth century, and some Albanian borrowings from Slav preserve the pre-shift form of the vowel."


" Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways.

First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian;

and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.)"

"But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas."

"Presumably the Latin-speaking proto-Romanians came to pastoralism later than the early Albanians. If they had been doing it for as long as the Albanians, and in similar areas, they would - just like the Albanians - have escaped Latinization altogether."


"This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries.

The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions.
"

From a 4th century text, we see the mention of two Dardanian exports:


Dardanian cheese (caseum dardanicum) & pork fat (lardum).


In the words of Noel Malcolm:


"References to Dardanian cheese, a famous and widely exported product, also testify to a large shepherding population."

 

[mount123]

Some important quotes from Noel Malcolm

The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions.
"

What about the fact that East Central Kosovo is quite high in J2b-L283 lines? This does not really prove that Dardania was only populated by a non Illyrian Paleo Balkan group of people. Interesting to state is also that the distribution of J2b-L283 matches everything around the Ulpiana complex and Kalaja e Justinianit in Fush Kosove for instance. Or Dardha (Kamenica) with its iron age settlement that is attributed to the Dardano-Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

What about the fact that East Central Kosovo is quite high in J2b-L283 lines? This does not really prove that Dardania was only populated by a non Illyrian Paleo Balkan group of people. Interesting to state is also that the distribution of J2b-L283 matches everything around the Ulpiana complex and Kalaja e Justinianit in Fush Kosove for instance. Or Dardha (Kamenica) with its iron age settlement that is attributed to the Dardano-Illyrians.

He is literally quoting a journalist that has no formal training in linguistics or archeology.

 

[Johane Derite]

From a 4th century text, we see the mention of two Dardanian exports:


Dardanian cheese (caseum dardanicum) & pork fat (lardum).


In the words of Noel Malcolm:


"References to Dardanian cheese, a famous and widely exported product, also testify to a large shepherding population."

In Caesar's "Civil Wars" we see a reference to the use of Dardanian & Bessian mercenaries / volunteers by Pompeius during the civil war of the Roman Republic. (49–45 BC)


"There were likewise a great number of Dardanians and Bessians, partly volunteers, partly mercenaries"

I found this reference to Dardanians and Bessians by Caesar this early on quite interesting. Also that he doesn't mention Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

In Caesar's "Civil Wars" we see a reference to the use of Dardanian & Bessian mercenaries / volunteers by Pompeius during the civil war of the Roman Republic. (49–45 BC)


"There were likewise a great number of Dardanians and Bessians, partly volunteers, partly mercenaries"

I found this reference to Dardanians and Bessians by Caesar this early on quite interesting. Also that he doesn't mention Illyrians.

He also mentions Thessaly and Macedonia and doesn't mention Greeks. Keep it going with your disinformation campaign.

 

[mount123]

What about the fact that East Central Kosovo is quite high in J2b-L283 lines? This does not really prove that Dardania was only populated by a non Illyrian Paleo Balkan group of people. Interesting to state is also that the distribution of J2b-L283 matches everything around the Ulpiana complex and Kalaja e Justinianit in Fush Kosove for instance. Or Dardha (Kamenica) with its iron age settlement that is attributed to the Dardano-Illyrians.

I doubt that all East and Central Kosovan J2b-L283 is only Delmatae, Ardiae, Enchelii etc. derived or from latinized Komani-Kruja, Dalmatian culture. From what I have read the Autariatae were also quite influential in Dardania. A local Illyrian remnant factor is more than likely the source of J2b-L283 in East Central Kosovo which would mean that Bardylis also injected some genetic Illyrian component into Dardania, see Ulpiana etc.

 

[Hawk]

I doubt that all East and Central Kosovan J2b-L283 is only Delmatae, Ardiae, Enchelii etc. derived or from latinized Komani-Kruja, Dalmatian culture. From what I have read the Autariatae were also quite influential in Dardania. A local Illyrian remnant factor is more than likely the source of J2b-L283 in East Central Kosovo which would mean that Bardylis also injected some genetic Illyrian component into Dardania, see Ulpiana etc.

One other way how to deduce is to check the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 levels at Serbs from Kosov and surroundings. And E-V13 is far more quite present among them than J2b2-L283.

Beside, Enchelei doesn't seem to have been related to Glasinac-Mat. Check their burial rite, cremation on a pyre, golden burial masks, xiphos swords with T shaped hilts.

 

[Aspurg]

What are you going on about? Proto-Thracians existed like 4-5 thousand years ago. Stop making me waste my breath.

It's like some people here don't understand the basics of Indo-European migrations.

Proto-Thracians were per Russian archeologists late newcomers into Balkan/Thrace, LBA/EIA. And they were right. Some sort of Proto-Thracians likely existed back then but they were not important. Also V13 is of that age..

Anyway why don't you do something?? You, Bruzmi, Kelmendasi.. Some of these people write things that are known by anybody and receive "thanks" on these fora for debunking nonsensical postulations.. I've noticed that on anthrogenica, someone writes something laughable which everybody knows is not truth, and then somebody "debunks" this and receives "thanks".. 10 year old who read a little bit can debunk that.

Just as you are not hard to debunk. I have around 350 books and articles on Scythians and Sarmatians alone. And 1000 about Paleobalkans. What can you quote?

I've just noticed something interesting about real proto-Albanians, something that provides some exact information about them before even it seems before their first mention in 11st century. And ofc this just reaffirms what most authors were saying about proto-Albanians.

Any idea that proto-Albanians were not pastoral shepherds is a pure phantasy on steroids.. And because of that, for example they couldn't have descended of Komani-Kruja culture automatically. The other reason this culture being Latin/Roman ofc.

 

[mount123]

One other way how to deduce is to check the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 levels at Serbs from Kosov and surroundings. And E-V13 is far more quite present among them than J2b2-L283.

Beside, Enchelei doesn't seem to have been related to Glasinac-Mat. Check their burial rite, cremation on a pyre, golden burial masks, xiphos swords with T shaped hilts.

Serbs as all South Slavs have neglible amounts of J2b-L283 so they are not a good source in determining in what quantity Illyrians were present in Dardania. Also Serbs in Kosovo have mostly roots in Bosnia. Most of E1b-V13 in Serbs has generally been picked up in the Panonnian plain or Moesia rather than the southern Balkans.

Thought Enchelii were part of Illyrii Proprie Dicti​?

 

[mount123]

Proto-Thracians were per Russian archeologists late newcomers into Balkan/Thrace, LBA/EIA. And they were right. Some sort of Proto-Thracians likely existed back then but they were not important. Also V13 is of that age..

Anyway why don't you do something?? You, Bruzmi, Kelmendasi.. Some of these people write things that are known by anybody and receive "thanks" on these fora for debunking nonsensical postulations.. I've noticed that on anthrogenica, someone writes something laughable which everybody knows is not truth, and then somebody "debunks" this and receives "thanks".. 10 year old who read a little bit can debunk that.

Just as you are not hard to debunk. I have around 350 books and articles on Scythians and Sarmatians alone. And 1000 about Paleobalkans. What can you quote?

I've just noticed something interesting about real proto-Albanians, something that provides some exact information about them before even it seems before their first mention in 11st century. And ofc this just reaffirms what most authors were saying about proto-Albanians.

Any idea that proto-Albanians were not pastoral shepherds is a pure phantasy on steroids.. And because of that, for example they couldn't have descended of Komani-Kruja culture automatically. The other reason this culture being Latin/Roman ofc.

He is obviously posting non sense but still all of J2b-L283 can't be just Komani-Kruja or Dalmatia derived. How does Eastern and Central Kosovo get solid high J2b-L283 rates?

 

[torzio]

Serbs as all South Slavs have neglible amounts of J2b-L283 so they are not a good source in determining in what quantity Illyrians were present in Dardania. Also Serbs in Kosovo have mostly roots in Bosnia. Most of E1b-V13 in Serbs has generally been picked up in the Panonnian plain or Moesia rather than the southern Balkans.

Thought Enchelii were part of Illyrii Proprie Dicti​?

no,...... Enchelii where originally northern Montengro illyrian tribe that where forced to flee the southern Dalmatians ...................they fled to western Macedonia

Illyrii proprie dicti[122] were the Illyrians proper, so called by Pliny (23–79 AD) in his Natural History. They later formed the Docleatae. They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae.