Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

Of course you cherrypicked the samples , we got a bunch of other samples which you can also find here anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26174-Stable-population-structure-in-Europe-since-the-Iron-Age-despite-high-mobility&p=883200&viewfull=1#post883200

But let's just use these Albanian Davidski averages of yours and run them through the calculator to compare them to Iron Age/Late Bronze Age Illyrians (who are quite identical) and Iron Age Thracians




Distance to: Albanian:ALB202
0.03545706 HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.03742649 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.03920410 MKD_BA:I7231
0.04043987 MNE_LBA:I13777
0.04224343 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.04235882 HRV_EIA:I23904
0.04301663 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.04326490 MKD_Anc:I10385
0.04348781 MNE_LBA:I13775
0.04396457 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.04423626 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.04424307 HRV_EIA:I23995
0.04520423 MNE_LBA:I13167
0.04550504 MKD_Anc:I10384
0.04570788 MNE_LBA:I13168
0.04612120 MNE_LBA:I13172
0.04643901 MNE_LBA:I13169
0.04808454 MKD_Anc:I10388
0.04895470 MNE_LBA:I13171
0.04898351 MKD_Anc:I8112
0.04962902 HRV_IA:I3313
0.04964229 HRV_EIA:I26742
0.04979345 MNE_LBA:I14498
0.04985416 HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
0.05105129 MKD_Anc:I10381

Just setting aside that you obviously have some sort of mental illness, enter_tain, or how would one explain that even though you and your puppet accounts have been banned multiple times you just keep on opening the next ones right away?!

Albanians are not identical to BA and IA Illyrians. Neither in uniparental ratios nor auDNA you stupid moron. Get a life or something.

 

[mount123]

If Moderators are reading through this thread the above "Illyrioi" is enter_tain yet again trying to evade his ban.

Now enter_tain posts as "Riverboy". Considering he is mentally ill and has no social life, hence after each ban he opens new socks, perhaps an ID/device permanent ban would help out. This way he cannot open a new account and would not be intelligent enough to try to evade his ban.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

PaleoRevenge's latest "model" is so ridiculously misleading with overlapping figures that many samples which aren't at least as "northern" as the northernmost Italians will score very weird results. This includes even a Bronze Age J-L283 Illyrian from from Cetina who apparently scores:

Target: J-L283:HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
Distance: 1.6602% / 0.01660169
46.2 MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc
35.8 SRB_Naissus
6.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
5.6 HRV_Cetina_BA
4.4 Slav_MA
1.4 Sargat_IA
0.6 MNG_Early_Xiongnu

LOL, you are part of the Alb project right? This is exactly by what I have meant when I have called historical works from the country, incompetent, 3rd world amateurish . You are using the model backwards but it appears the "intellectuals" of Alb DNA team do not even understand how time works. What's next, use it on Chinese averages?

And you are picking atypical individuals. BA HRV samples are very diverse in profile, but you should not even run the calc that way to begin with.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Nope you cherry picked the samples, you did not add one Alb_MDV that clusters with the Iron Age or close.

All your averages are cherrypicked , same way you accused us of using fake coordinates because you did not like the results. Run these samples on any decent calculator or add them on any decent PCA Map and you will see these Thracian samples do not cluster anywhere close compared to some of these Illyrians, they are way too south, even when you zoom into the PCA Map it is pretty clear, once you fill enough Albanian samples especially. There are no Albanians that shift that south but there are quite some people that shift West. Davidski averages mean nothing, I got over 100 Albanian samples.

Make your own averages and disclose them. I filter outliers and make coherent averages. I am not Brumi who throws everything into soup bowel, blends it in and calls it Illyrian-Roman-Mdv, that's clownish and based entirely on assumptions.

In what planet does the Dardani average represent Iron Age Dardani ? They are obviously samples from the Roman period found in Eastern Serbia in Roman military station or they are from somewhere else such as samples from Macedonia which you prove exactly they cluster closer. Same thing for the Himera which are obviously not Thracian. The Sample from Naissus is not from the Iron Age.

I disclosed my Dardani average, they are all IA samples, but I am talking to moron who can't read.

Himera I14950 is clearly north-Thracian/Dacian, prove that it's not.

You just cherry picked the samples to make it look like they cluster closer yet funny how Roman Illyrians cluster closer to Albanians than actual Roman Thracians which exactly your PCA Map shows.

What did I cherry pick, what a moron.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Of course you cherrypicked the samples , we got a bunch of other samples which you can also find here anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26174-Stable-population-structure-in-Europe-since-the-Iron-Age-despite-high-mobility&p=883200&viewfull=1#post883200

But let's just use these Albanian Davidski averages of yours and run them through the calculator to compare them to Iron Age/Late Bronze Age Illyrians (who are quite identical) and Iron Age Thracians


Now there are a bunch of people who shift even more
West but the problem is all this guys Albanian averages are
shift more east, these are not results we got from Albanians of AG
but still your Thracian does not even show up mate.

Add them on to any decent PCA Map and you see who these samples cluster closer to.

Davidski updated his database, thanks for the heads up.

It has been explained a billion times, clustering and modeling are two different things. A German mixed with the right MENA ingredients can cluster Albanian, but cannot and will not be modeled as a Albanian derived by the calc. Otherwise North Italians and Italic Swiss are Illyrians, and central Italians are Roman Illyrians. None of these are true, but how do you explain that to a mental child?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Davidski has released new Alb samples, with regional IDs, some are actually duplicates, so you need to filter them out, the duplicates are mostly Alb-north and Alb-nortwest.

Since I had 8 additional to what he added, I created my own regional averages by adding on to his.

The Dardanii component peaks in regions with the highest R1b-Z2103 concentrations. Interesting correlation.

 

[Excine]

Paleo-Revenge reached the point where his model has become utterly nonsensical via overlapping, extreme use of non-contemporaneous sources and now he's even re-arranging Davidski's dataset because it obviously doesn't his fit what he wants to show.
I modified a model from anthrogenica. It includes just contemporaneous sources but I added EST_BA as a source for Slavs to include the entire range of the Balto-Slavic shift.

Slavic:Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.0158387,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro:MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481,0.113823,0.153345,0.013576,-0.032623,0.016618,-0.013945,0.00517,-0.004846,-0.000409,0.029158,-0.006171,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.000138,-0.011808,-0.015646,-0.004303,0.008488,0.007919,-0.011005,-0.000624,0.007048,-0.003821,-0.004458,-0.004191
Pre-Slavic_Byzantine_Trogir_Croatia,0.1158718,0.1460332,0.004827,-0.0272612,0.0216038,-0.0125498,4.7e-05,0.0020306,0.0011452,0.0170574,-0.0003572,0.0065642,-0.0104656,-0.003468,-0.0080618,0.0120922,0.0177322,-0.0011402,0.0013326,-0.0026762,-0.003344,0.0012118,-0.0008874,0.0005304,-0.0001198
Pre-Slavic_Bulgaria:BGR_RomByz,0.114961,0.180764,0.000754,-0.055556,0.023081,-0.02008,-0.00611,0.000462,0.017998,0.043737,-0.008607,0.001649,-0.024678,-0.017616,-0.021444,-0.00716,0.020079,-0.013302,-0.006913,-0.004752,-0.013227,0.016075,-0.006655,0.023377,-0.008981
Roman_Northern_Balkans_local:HRV_Scitarjevo_local:R3659___AD_313,0.122929,0.153345,0.026021,0,0.024928,-0.009203,-0.003055,-0.004615,0.011658,0.016401,0.006658,0.008692,-0.015015,-0.005092,-0.001357,-0.009944,-0.005085,0.0019,0.006285,-0.011631,-0.004866,0.000989,-0.008134,-0.004699,0.004311
Roman_Northern_Balkans_local:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6693___AD_284,0.119514,0.149283,0.011314,-0.015827,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00047,0.013384,0.011658,0.027518,-0.003735,0.016036,-0.019177,0.008257,-0.008415,-0.01127,-0.002086,0.001267,0.011061,-0.004502,-0.003369,-0.002473,-0.002342,0.005061,-0.005628
Roman_Northern_Balkans_local:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701___AD_284,0.126344,0.153345,0.028284,-0.028101,0.032621,-0.009482,0.005405,0.003,0.010431,0.031709,0.005521,0.001499,-0.006838,-0.001239,-0.011129,-0.014054,-0.011865,-0.004054,0.002137,-0.006503,-0.009733,-0.008779,0.002095,0.002289,-0.00467
Roman_Balkans_Germanic:HRV_Scitarjevo_Germanic:R3660___AD_497,0.136588,0.135065,0.065619,0.057817,0.047393,0.017291,0.015276,0.011538,-0.007158,-0.006014,-0.003735,0.002847,0.00669,-0.002202,0.025651,0.009812,-0.014733,-0.000507,0.006159,0.004877,0.008984,-0.002349,0.000246,0.021087,0.003592
Sarmatian:KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian,0.0387,-0.3879325,0.0771215,-0.0224485,-0.062781,-0.038766,0.017861,0.018922,0.003988,0.007472,-0.0261445,-7.5e-05,-0.0052035,-0.001789,-0.0012215,-0.000862,-0.004498,-0.0022805,-0.002074,0.0047525,-0.016533,0.005317,-0.0146665,-0.0028915,0.003892

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.2603% / 0.01260264
41.0 Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro
33.2 Pre-Slavic_Byzantine_Trogir_Croatia
10.8 Roman_Northern_Balkans_local
8.6 Slavic
5.6 Pre-Slavic_Bulgaria
0.8 Sarmatian
The fit is similar to P-R's "models" and the model for once makes historical sense. Depending on the sources which are used I've seen the Balto-Slavic shift rise up to 13-15% and the "Pre-Slavic" component up to 95%. I could get it to work with a distance even below 1% but at this point it's just overfitting.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Paleo-Revenge reached the point where his model has become utterly nonsensical via overlapping, extreme use of non-contemporaneous sources and now he's even re-arranging Davidski's dataset because it obviously doesn't his fit what he wants to show.
I modified a model from anthrogenica. It includes just contemporaneous sources but I added EST_BA as a source for Slavs to include the entire range of the Balto-Slavic shift.

Slavic:Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.0158387,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro:MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481,0.113823,0.153345,0.013576,-0.032623,0.016618,-0.013945,0.00517,-0.004846,-0.000409,0.029158,-0.006171,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.000138,-0.011808,-0.015646,-0.004303,0.008488,0.007919,-0.011005,-0.000624,0.007048,-0.003821,-0.004458,-0.004191
Pre-Slavic_Byzantine_Trogir_Croatia,0.1158718,0.1460332,0.004827,-0.0272612,0.0216038,-0.0125498,4.7e-05,0.0020306,0.0011452,0.0170574,-0.0003572,0.0065642,-0.0104656,-0.003468,-0.0080618,0.0120922,0.0177322,-0.0011402,0.0013326,-0.0026762,-0.003344,0.0012118,-0.0008874,0.0005304,-0.0001198
Pre-Slavic_Bulgaria:BGR_RomByz,0.114961,0.180764,0.000754,-0.055556,0.023081,-0.02008,-0.00611,0.000462,0.017998,0.043737,-0.008607,0.001649,-0.024678,-0.017616,-0.021444,-0.00716,0.020079,-0.013302,-0.006913,-0.004752,-0.013227,0.016075,-0.006655,0.023377,-0.008981
Roman_Northern_Balkans_local:HRV_Scitarjevo_local:R3659___AD_313,0.122929,0.153345,0.026021,0,0.024928,-0.009203,-0.003055,-0.004615,0.011658,0.016401,0.006658,0.008692,-0.015015,-0.005092,-0.001357,-0.009944,-0.005085,0.0019,0.006285,-0.011631,-0.004866,0.000989,-0.008134,-0.004699,0.004311
Roman_Northern_Balkans_local:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6693___AD_284,0.119514,0.149283,0.011314,-0.015827,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00047,0.013384,0.011658,0.027518,-0.003735,0.016036,-0.019177,0.008257,-0.008415,-0.01127,-0.002086,0.001267,0.011061,-0.004502,-0.003369,-0.002473,-0.002342,0.005061,-0.005628
Roman_Northern_Balkans_local:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701___AD_284,0.126344,0.153345,0.028284,-0.028101,0.032621,-0.009482,0.005405,0.003,0.010431,0.031709,0.005521,0.001499,-0.006838,-0.001239,-0.011129,-0.014054,-0.011865,-0.004054,0.002137,-0.006503,-0.009733,-0.008779,0.002095,0.002289,-0.00467
Roman_Balkans_Germanic:HRV_Scitarjevo_Germanic:R3660___AD_497,0.136588,0.135065,0.065619,0.057817,0.047393,0.017291,0.015276,0.011538,-0.007158,-0.006014,-0.003735,0.002847,0.00669,-0.002202,0.025651,0.009812,-0.014733,-0.000507,0.006159,0.004877,0.008984,-0.002349,0.000246,0.021087,0.003592
Sarmatian:KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian,0.0387,-0.3879325,0.0771215,-0.0224485,-0.062781,-0.038766,0.017861,0.018922,0.003988,0.007472,-0.0261445,-7.5e-05,-0.0052035,-0.001789,-0.0012215,-0.000862,-0.004498,-0.0022805,-0.002074,0.0047525,-0.016533,0.005317,-0.0146665,-0.0028915,0.003892

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.2603% / 0.01260264
41.0 Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro
33.2 Pre-Slavic_Byzantine_Trogir_Croatia
10.8 Roman_Northern_Balkans_local
8.6 Slavic
5.6 Pre-Slavic_Bulgaria
0.8 Sarmatian
The fit is similar to P-R's "models" and the model for once makes historical sense. Depending on the sources which are used I've seen the Balto-Slavic shift rise up to 13-15% and the "Pre-Slavic" component up to 95%. I could get it to work with a distance even below 1% but at this point it's just overfitting.

These Brumi models are comical, using creole populations, giving them the same geographic identity and making hysterical assumptions. Krusevlje and Scitarjevo are on the Slavonian plain, out of giant heap of samples you pick Slavonian, how is that even going to help you? And you should screen the samples for foreign admixter, the Krusevlje have Celtic mixture. The Alb mdv have Slavic built in them because I13839 and I14622 have noticable Slavic mixture.


These are the additional samples I added to Davidski's:

ZanatisCousin2

ZanatisCousin3

Alb_MNEscaled

Dibran_scaled

Hawk_scaled

Kastrati_scaled

Toplica_Albanian_son_scaled

Norman_scaled

5:S_Albanian-1.DG

They don't help with the South Thracian pull, only the last two do. You think the overall picture changes? It does not, because the ratio of central Albanian and south Albanian samples to northern Ghegs is the same as Davidski's new Alb samples.

I could get it to work with a distance even below 1% but at this point it's just overfitting.

That's a positive way of saying my model sucks.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

"contemporaneous sources" Let's put it to the test shall we?

  [TABLE]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early:I16750_&_SZK103,0.1161,0.157915,0.002451,-0.04845,0.023235,-0.020498,-0.0010575,-0.000231,0.006647,0.038452,-0.0009745,0.0076435,-0.015312,0.002202,-0.0205615,0.005701,0.030249,0.003674,0.0069135,-0.005065,-0.009421,0.0026585,0.0009245,0.0028315,-0.0084425[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376_&_ALB_Mdv_13840_&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756:Avg,0.121563,0.16086,0.0076178,-0.0430236,0.0302208,-0.0174028,0.001927,-0.0003692,0.0069538,0.0351716,0.0033128,0.0060246,-0.0148956,0.0011284,-0.0217424,-0.0093342,0.005059,0.0032432,0.0084972,-0.0096048,-0.0092334,0.0063558,-9.85999999999999E-05,0.0020004,0.0005508
[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Rome_Imperial:MENA,0.083887615,0.14438296,-0.05539909,-0.08351165,-0.014875675,-0.02808784,-0.00420361,-0.00699206,0.00473994,0.00753321,0.00485756,-0.0063994,0.01110501,-0.000839415,-0.00692851,0.007229525,0.00264355,0.00003644,0.00138889,0.00176961,0.0012493,0.00448696,-0.00141116,-0.000301325,-0.00209115[/TD]
  [/TR]
 [/TABLE]

 

[Excine]

Your model doesn't have contemporaneous sources and you can't just pick two random sources from very different areas and combine them into one average. This isn't how modelling works. You argue against other models which use the actual sources of specific geographical areas but this is what all proper models do.

Your newest model can't be used to infer any information because it doesn't represent real populations but a fictional one which you created from two samples you picked because you considered them to work fine for the purposes of what you wanted to show. For what it's worth, the average you create is a sort of proxy for ANF ancestry + some other minor admixture and it works in this exact manner for southern European populations.

Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.7653% / 0.00765256
44.4 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
34.4 Rome_Imperial
13.6 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
6.0 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
1.0 Sargat_IA
0.6 MNG_Early_Xiongnu

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.9109% / 0.00910865
53.6 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
32.0 Rome_Imperial
13.4 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
1.0 MNG_Early_Xiongnu

Target: Greek_Apulia
Distance: 1.1043% / 0.01104336
41.6 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
31.4 Rome_Imperial
12.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
10.0 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
2.8 Slav_MA
1.8 Sargat_IA

Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 0.8545% / 0.00854454
49.6 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
37.4 Rome_Imperial
10.4 Slav_MA
1.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
1.2 Sargat_IA

 

[torzio]

"contemporaneous sources" Let's put it to the test shall we?

  [TABLE]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early:I16750_&_SZK103,0.1161,0.157915,0.002451,-0.04845,0.023235,-0.020498,-0.0010575,-0.000231,0.006647,0.038452,-0.0009745,0.0076435,-0.015312,0.002202,-0.0205615,0.005701,0.030249,0.003674,0.0069135,-0.005065,-0.009421,0.0026585,0.0009245,0.0028315,-0.0084425[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376_&_ALB_Mdv_13840_&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756:Avg,0.121563,0.16086,0.0076178,-0.0430236,0.0302208,-0.0174028,0.001927,-0.0003692,0.0069538,0.0351716,0.0033128,0.0060246,-0.0148956,0.0011284,-0.0217424,-0.0093342,0.005059,0.0032432,0.0084972,-0.0096048,-0.0092334,0.0063558,-9.85999999999999E-05,0.0020004,0.0005508
[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]Rome_Imperial:MENA,0.083887615,0.14438296,-0.05539909,-0.08351165,-0.014875675,-0.02808784,-0.00420361,-0.00699206,0.00473994,0.00753321,0.00485756,-0.0063994,0.01110501,-0.000839415,-0.00692851,0.007229525,0.00264355,0.00003644,0.00138889,0.00176961,0.0012493,0.00448696,-0.00141116,-0.000301325,-0.00209115[/TD]
  [/TR]
 [/TABLE]

davidski has always thrown "hand grenades" at his modeling

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Your model doesn't have contemporaneous sources and you can't just pick two random sources from very different areas and combine them into one average. This isn't how modelling works. You argue against other models which use the actual sources of specific geographical areas but this is what all proper models do.

Your newest model can't be used to infer any information because it doesn't represent real populations but a fictional one which you created from two samples you picked because you considered them to work fine for the purposes of what you wanted to show. For what it's worth, the average you create is a sort of proxy for ANF ancestry + some other minor admixture and it works in this exact manner for southern European populations.

Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.7653% / 0.00765256
44.4 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
34.4 Rome_Imperial
13.6 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
6.0 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
1.0 Sargat_IA
0.6 MNG_Early_Xiongnu

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.9109% / 0.00910865
53.6 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
32.0 Rome_Imperial
13.4 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
1.0 MNG_Early_Xiongnu

Target: Greek_Apulia
Distance: 1.1043% / 0.01104336
41.6 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
31.4 Rome_Imperial
12.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
10.0 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
2.8 Slav_MA
1.8 Sargat_IA

Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 0.8545% / 0.00854454
49.6 HungaryI18185&_HungarySZOD376&_ALB_Mdv13840&SRB_Roman_R6730_R6756
37.4 Rome_Imperial
10.4 Slav_MA
1.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
1.2 Sargat_IA

I can do the same with your model, but I have integrity, and I am not incompetent (you seem startled why the model works). The Hungarian samples are Thracians and a few Dardani-Thracian in profile. In Anthrogenica that is the consensus. I can remove the Albs and Roman Serb profiles, and it still outperforms your model.

Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early:I16750_&_SZK103:Avg,0.1161,0.157915,0.002451,-0.04845,0.023235,-0.020498,-0.0010575,-0.000231,0.006647,0.038452,-0.0009745,0.0076435,-0.015312,0.002202,-0.0205615,0.005701,0.030249,0.003674,0.0069135,-0.005065,-0.009421,0.0026585,0.0009245,0.0028315,-0.0084425
Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376:Avg,0.1206525,0.164516,0.00528,-0.05168,0.0284665,-0.0227295,0.005405,-0.000808,0.010124,0.0414585,0.00747,0.006294,-0.018731,0.002477,-0.020358,-0.00948,0.000978,0.0085515,0.010119,-0.0040645,-0.009795,0.0044515,0,0.0036755,0.000359
POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395
Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
Rome_Imperial:MENA,0.083887615,0.14438296,-0.05539909,-0.08351165,-0.014875675,-0.02808784,-0.00420361,-0.00699206,0.00473994,0.00753321,0.00485756,-0.0063994,0.01110501,-0.000839415,-0.00692851,0.007229525,0.00264355,0.00003644,0.00138889,0.00176961,0.0012493,0.00448696,-0.00141116,-0.000301325,-0.00209115

 

[PaleoRevenge]

These are the four Hungarian samples I reduced my model to, vs your amalgamation of Balkan Roman sources. Your ingridients fail to a produce a better fit despite being right next door to the Albanian average.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

davidski has always thrown "hand grenades" at his modeling

Kind of have to when starting from scratch. With the hand grenade method, I came across one very relevant Croatian profile. He is alone among his kind, that is the Alb averages do not respond at all to Dalmatian Roman samples except this particular individual. It is crude, but it leads to results.

This individual has an interesting profile:

He has an equal of Illyrian and Dardanii component, and a equal Roman component, plus a good amount of ME mixture. This individual also has a pattern among Albanians (based on the known regional values). It's profile is picked up by northern Ghegs, but with central and south Albanians, it is abandoned. I am confident this is a really good proxy for the Kruja-Komani Latin speakers, the Romanized J2b-L283 natives.

With these five AD profiles I am making crazy good fits. The other 4 are Thracian based, with one being Dardanii heavy.

This is how they model:

A simplistic model using only three Roman profiles

In the end, whether using IA model or AD model, the answer is the same. E-V13 Thracian based profile is central, followed by a Dardani profile. And a battered Illyrian.

SZOD376_(Commoner)_STR_300_&_SRB_Viminacium_R6756:Thracian_profile_avg,0.124067,0.166885333333333,0.00439966666666667,-0.050711,0.0286203333333333,-0.0167336666666667,0.00454333333333333,0.004769,0.007158,0.0368723333333333,0.00654966666666667,0.00319733333333333,-0.0109016666666667,-0.00275266666666667,-0.025651,-0.013701,0.00117333333333333,0.00122466666666667,0.00507,-0.0122976666666667,-0.009067,0.008697,0.00180766666666667,0.00690833333333333,-0.00215533333333333
Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):I16750,0.1161,0.159438,0.004148,-0.046835,0.022158,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.001846,0.004295,0.040639,-0.004222,0.009442,-0.015907,0.010597,-0.020901,0.004375,0.0339,0.007475,0.008045,-0.013632,-0.015847,0.000618,0.001849,0.005904,-0.011496
Croatia_Velic:R3685___AD_500_G2a2b-L497(Kruja-Komani_proxy),0.117238,0.141159,-0.001508,-0.030039,0.015387,-0.016733,-0.00376,-0.006461,-0.00225,0.020228,-0.00065,0.003297,-0.017096,-0.001789,-0.010586,0.007558,0.012386,-0.003294,0.001634,-0.004002,-0.004367,-0.001484,-0.001849,0.002771,-0.000359
POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395
Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
Rome_Imperial:MENA,0.083887615,0.14438296,-0.05539909,-0.08351165,-0.014875675,-0.02808784,-0.00420361,-0.00699206,0.00473994,0.00753321,0.00485756,-0.0063994,0.01110501,-0.000839415,-0.00692851,0.007229525,0.00264355,0.00003644,0.00138889,0.00176961,0.0012493,0.00448696,-0.00141116,-0.000301325,-0.00209115

 

[Excine]

I can do the same with your model, but I have integrity, and I am not incompetent (you seem startled why the model works). The Hungarian samples are Thracians and a few Dardani-Thracian in profile. In Anthrogenica that is the consensus. I can remove the Albs and Roman Serb profiles, and it still outperforms your model.

You took 2 irrelevant samples and grouped together in order to create something which fit your purpose, but you object using the samples from Albania and Montenegro. It's absurd to even argue that samples from the Roman/pre-Slavic Balkans from historical Albanian regions shouldn't be used in a model. Do you even read what other people write before replying to them?

You're not "startling" anyone. I literally showed that your model performs the same way for many southern Europeans and the fake proxy you created works as a proxy for Anatolian Farmer ancestry. How hard can it be for you to understand that the proxy you created by merging two samples works as an ANF proxy?


Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 1.1656% / 0.01165615
44.4 Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376
33.0 Rome_Imperial
12.4 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
4.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
4.4 Slav_MA
1.4 Sargat_IA

Target: Greek_Apulia
Distance: 1.2361% / 0.01236082
32.0 Rome_Imperial
31.0 Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376
19.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
9.2 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
6.8 Slav_MA
1.6 Sargat_IA

Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 1.0311% / 0.01031055
38.2 Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376
37.8 Rome_Imperial
14.0 Slav_MA
9.0 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
1.0 Sargat_IA

Your model isn't "outperforming" the model I posted. You think that reducing slightly the distance provides a better model. Well, it doesn't. A model with 1.0 compared to a model with 1.2 distance isn't better. When your model is ahistorical, performs in the same way for many populations, produces nonsensical results and can't be used to infer any information then the model with the slightly higher distance is much better. You insist on something which makes no sense by itself. You're trying to argue that that somehow Albanians don't have any autosomal ancestry from the area in/around Albania despite the fact Y-DNA research has shown that in the same single settlement 1/3 of total Albanian Y-DNA lineages have been found.

 

[Hawk]

Why cannot we just cope with reality Albanians might be descended from more than 1 Paleo-Balkan people? What's wrong with Thracians?

The Thracians like Odrysians were far more richer and more powerful than any Illyrian. Imagine the rich and powerful Odrysians were struggling of putting under their command the highlander Thracians, their kings were being killed by them on their attempts. I am pretty sure a lot of Thracians were vanquished already by Justinian plague, the Illyrians as well, but it wasn't as prominent as in Thrace which was closer to Constantinople.

 

[mount123]

Why cannot we just cope with reality Albanians might be descended from more than 1 Paleo-Balkan people? What's wrong with Thracians?

The Thracians like Odrysians were far more richer and more powerful than any Illyrian. Imagine the rich and powerful Odrysians were struggling of putting under their command the highlander Thracians, their kings were being killed by them on their attempts. I am pretty sure a lot of Thracians were vanquished already by Justinian plague, the Illyrians as well, but it wasn't as prominent as in Thrace which was closer to Constantinople.

That is rather an objective perspective. I find everything in regards to continuity of EBA Cetina as a sea power of its time to its late phase, Dinaric, to Classical Illyrians to be rather fascinating. But obviously that is due to our heritage not that it isn't too far from the truth either, they surely were great in their own way.

True and absolutely weird to be offended of being a nation that consists of basically all the pre-Slavic South East European world and to the idea of perhaps seeing phenotypic characteristics of a Thracian Teres, Paeonian Pyraechmes, Illyrian Bato in men, likewise in women a Thracian Edona or a Illyrian Teuta etc.

 

[Olti27]

The Thracians were weak. They didn't manage to conserve neither their language nor their name. Albanian is not a mixed language so there is no point in claiming the legacy of different peoples groups (even though there might be some genetic influence) unless you want to argue that there is a linguistic continuum of thrack-illyrian. Illyrians were pretty awesome judging by how hard our neighbors are trying to diconect albanians from them.

 

[torzio]

The Thracians were weak. They didn't manage to conserve neither their language nor their name. Albanian is not a mixed language so there is no point in claiming the legacy of different peoples groups (even though there might be some genetic influence) unless you want to argue that there is a linguistic continuum of thrack-illyrian. Illyrians were pretty awesome judging by how hard our neighbors are trying to diconect albanians from them.

is your icon stating that skandenberg is romanian ?................you have the romanian flag

 

[torzio]

Why cannot we just cope with reality Albanians might be descended from more than 1 Paleo-Balkan people? What's wrong with Thracians?

The Thracians like Odrysians were far more richer and more powerful than any Illyrian. Imagine the rich and powerful Odrysians were struggling of putting under their command the highlander Thracians, their kings were being killed by them on their attempts. I am pretty sure a lot of Thracians were vanquished already by Justinian plague, the Illyrians as well, but it wasn't as prominent as in Thrace which was closer to Constantinople.

they ( Odrysians ) are the only true thracians that went with Alexander on his invasion of persia .............they are really the only thracians ...............some say Dacians are thracians, but for me, they are not