Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

Sheesh, does it really matter to people the exact like square kilometer that their people's ethnogenesis supposedly took place? Jeez. That's like kinda strange in this day and age, with a globalized world. Most countries would rather point to actual achievements of their people and culture, and their contributions to humanity, while some are desperately clinging on to ideas of "we're the first people in this valley!", and "your people were from a few miles that way near the coast", or "you mixed with some of these people, you're not worthy of this land anymore!", lol. And these places are too obscure for the vast majority of the world to even know or care about, unfortunately.

I mean, I'm not saying it's not interesting in some general sense, but it's not like a bunch of people arguing on a forum are going to uncover the "real" truth about something, in absence of actual new evidence, which unfortunately is probably not going to come up anymore at this point. And I'd wager most of them aren't scholars who are going to write academic articles on their theories.

Depends on the topic............if the topic or the time zone older than nationalism, which is only 250 years old, ok ............unless you are a catalan and do not want to sit under castilian madrid
once , its older than nations, then your comments have zero value

 

[Excine]

Sheesh, does it really matter to people the exact like square kilometer that their people's ethnogenesis supposedly took place? Jeez. That's like kinda strange in this day and age, with a globalized world. Most countries would rather point to actual achievements of their people and culture, and their contributions to humanity, while some are desperately clinging on to ideas of "we're the first people in this valley!", and "your people were from a few miles that way near the coast", or "you mixed with some of these people, you're not worthy of this land anymore!", lol. And these places are too obscure for the vast majority of the world to even know or care about, unfortunately.

I mean, I'm not saying it's not interesting in some general sense, but it's not like a bunch of people arguing on a forum are going to uncover the "real" truth about something, in absence of actual new evidence, which unfortunately is probably not going to come up anymore at this point. And I'd wager most of them aren't scholars who are going to write academic articles on their theories.

The point is to discuss it on the forum....

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This exact region is where Georgiev argued that Albanian descended from a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, specifying Dardania, which he called "Daco-Mysian".


He believed Dardania had an Albanian etymology, and that despite low attestation many "Dacian" words had parallels in Albanian.

Since his time there have been some developments, the main one being that linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, etc, who have extensively studied old Albanian texts, no longer believe in a "Dacian" substratum in Romanian/Vlach languages.

The evidence is clear that they are simply loanwords from Proto-Albanian into Proto-Romanian.

And what was important for his scheme was that "Daco-Mysian" was not Thracian just as much as Phrygian was not Thracian.

I think that the term "Dacian" was wrong to use and the term "Dardano-Mysian" should be used, since Dardanoi and Mysi appear since the Homeric era as something separate, whereas the term "Dacian" is a very very late term.

Likewise, there are issues with a perfect overlapping of Dacian and Albanian places they fit, whereas others they just do not like with Thracian.

I think it is obvious that a "Dardanian" substrate or adstrate was present in these regions, that affected the proto-Messapics and some Illyrians in the west, and some Thracians in the East, such that you find Albanoid features in "Daco-Mysian" regions of Thrace like you do in Messapic regions.

The links of our past are in Dacia Meditarranea. Just west of the Bulgarian capital there is a valley called Burel, seems to be related to the Albanian word berryl(elbow), the valley has a 90 degree angle turn, thus shaped like an elbow. At the heart of medieval Albania, in the Mat valley is the village/town of Burrel.
There many toponyms in this area of Bulgaria and on the Serbian side of the border that seem to stem from Albanian, and borrowed by the Slavs as shown by Slavic pronouncation. This is my finding by simply scanning the areas west of Sofia: Kambelevtsi (from Alb. kumbulla, plum), two villages named Dreatin (related to Albanian Drite(light), there are settlements in Albania named Drite),Bukorovtsi (from Albanian bukur), Arzan (same as Albanian villages named arrez, from the word arre (farm land)), Buzovitsa from Albanain buze(many such toponym derivates in Albania), Lyalintsi from Albanian lala(this toponym existed even in Peloponnese where Albanians settled near Patras), on the Serbian-Bulgarian border there is the Ruy mountain which can be related to the Albanian word for safety/protection ruj. Village of Giginitsi (gheg). Village of Oresha (similar to Orosh in Mirdite). Village of Bilintsi, could derive from blini. Village of Gintsi (probably from Gjin, which would equate to Ivan).

On the Serbian side of the border is the village Grapa (Gropa in Albania from the word for hole/depression in the land), village of Postalica from Albanian posht(lower), there are also two settlement with similar name Petrilje and Petrlas which reminds me of the Albanian fort and settlement of Petrela near Tirana where the first Albanian principality appears. Village of Dumbija(from the word tooth dhemb? like dhembel mountain), village of Lalinice again from lala just has a Serbian pronounciation. The village of Gaginice (gheg). Village of Resen (same as Reshen in Mirdita).

I am sure there can be more toponyms. But I more interested to look into any census data from the Middle Ages from these villages and nearby area. A proto-Albanian people clearly stayed behind and got assimilated over time but the Albanian heritage and names would have lingered for some time and would be easy to detect if we can get our hands such documents. I don't know if the Bulgarian empire(s) took any population census, if there isn't any, we should try to look into Byzantine records of the area and early Ottoman, because the Ottomans took over in the late 1300s and took defters right away.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

While I agree there is something to the Dardanian connection, I believe this is to the Bronze Age Dardanians not Iron Age which appear to have been subjugated and settled by Illyrians. Also to me the dardhe connection never made any sense. The word dardhe itself stems from derdh, which means to pour, which describes the physical attribute of the pear. Dardania therefore is related to derdh not dardh. And if you look at a map of Dardania it is a land where all rivers pour out of, at least it would have seemed to the people living there. Vardar river to the Aegean, Drin river to Adriatic, Morava river to the Danube. The land where rivers pour out. This explanation makes more sense than pear. Naming a country pearland is like naming a country watermelonia.

 

[Johane Derite]

From the new Austrian Archaeological & Linguistic book dedicated to the Illyrians:

Matzinger argues that Illyrian descended from the Indo-European "East Alpine Block", which extended from the Eastern Alps of Italy into the Western Balkans,


He argues that the Albanian language is NOT from this group.

'"With regard to the linguistic position of Illyrian, the cautious assumption can therefore be made that it evolved from Indo-European in a prehistoric process that extended from the Eastern Alps to the Western Balkans and which is developmentally different from the Indo-European that became the basis of Greek, on the one hand, and the basis of Thracian and related idioms in the Eastern Balkans, on the other.

Especially the development of the Indo-European Syllabic resonants (*R) to illyr. /ul, ur, um, un/ is quite a crucial indication that Albanian is not a modern continuation of ancient Illyrian, which is discussed in detail in Chapter 17."

 

[Johane Derite]

From the new Austrian Archaeological & Linguistic book dedicated to the Illyrians:

Matzinger argues that Illyrian descended from the Indo-European "East Alpine Block", which extended from the Eastern Alps of Italy into the Western Balkans,


He argues that the Albanian language is NOT from this group.

'"With regard to the linguistic position of Illyrian, the cautious assumption can therefore be made that it evolved from Indo-European in a prehistoric process that extended from the Eastern Alps to the Western Balkans and which is developmentally different from the Indo-European that became the basis of Greek, on the one hand, and the basis of Thracian and related idioms in the Eastern Balkans, on the other.

Especially the development of the Indo-European Syllabic resonants (*R) to illyr. /ul, ur, um, un/ is quite a crucial indication that Albanian is not a modern continuation of ancient Illyrian, which is discussed in detail in Chapter 17."

Of great importance here is that not only does he argue that there is clear evidence to reject descendance of Albanian from Illyrian, but also to reject Messapic as an Illyrian language, but rather as an idiom descending from another balkan language group:

"there is also a specific feature of the historical Illyrian phonetic history, which was presented in Chapter 16.


This is the development of the idg. Syllable resonants (*R), which resulted in Illyrian. ul, ur, um, un (cf. the etymological derivation of ON Diluntum and Petuntium).


In Albanian, on the other hand, there was a completely different change in sound, since Indo-European. *r and *l resulted in Alban. ri and li [not ur and ul like in Illyrian] and *n and *m both have Albanian. a (see in detail Schumacher / Matzinger 2013, 229-230).


These developments are a clear indication that two different languages are present here.


As already shown in chapter 16, the ancient Messapic also shows at least the development from Indo-European *n to to Messapic. an, so that in this case too there is no agreement with ancient Illyrian. "

 

[Johane Derite]

From the new Austrian Archaeological & Linguistic book dedicated to the Illyrians:

Matzinger argues that Illyrian descended from the Indo-European "East Alpine Block", which extended from the Eastern Alps of Italy into the Western Balkans,


He argues that the Albanian language is NOT from this group.

'"With regard to the linguistic position of Illyrian, the cautious assumption can therefore be made that it evolved from Indo-European in a prehistoric process that extended from the Eastern Alps to the Western Balkans and which is developmentally different from the Indo-European that became the basis of Greek, on the one hand, and the basis of Thracian and related idioms in the Eastern Balkans, on the other.

Especially the development of the Indo-European Syllabic resonants (*R) to illyr. /ul, ur, um, un/ is quite a crucial indication that Albanian is not a modern continuation of ancient Illyrian, which is discussed in detail in Chapter 17."

Could this "East Alpine Block" IE group have a partial input into why some middle bronze age dalmatians autosomally are north italian like?

Interestingly that he argues that Messapic should be rejected as an Illyrian language opens up some possibilities.

 

[Hawk]

Could this "East Alpine Block" IE group have a partial input into why some middle bronze age dalmatians autosomally are north italian like?

Interestingly that he argues that Messapic should be rejected as an Illyrian language opens up some possibilities.

There was one R1b-L51 in Middle Bronze Age Croatia, so if Matzinger is right then Proto-Illyrians were some R1b-L51 Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus Culture bearers who assimilated/met J2b2-L283 somewhere along the way?

But then again, does this mean Messapi were different from Dauni? Things don't look so simple.

On the other side material culture of Enchelei as first attested Illyrian tribe links them with the groups potentially carrying high rate E-V13.


We have yet to see the full story.

 

[Johane Derite]

But then again, does this mean Messapi were different from Dauni? Things don't look so simple.

On the other side material culture of Enchelei as first attested Illyrian tribe links them with the groups potentially carrying high rate E-V13.


We have yet to see the full story.

If this model is accurate then maybe some sort of difference existed between Dauni and Messapi proper.

Jupiter Menzana is interesting for example, a Messapic deity that they sacrificed foals to.

Old Albanian. Manz (foal)
Thracian. Mezenai (horseman)

 

[Hawk]

Derite, on the paragraph you highlighted, what does he says about Albanian language in detail?

If Matzinger is right then the ancestor of Albanian is very likely one of the language brought by South-East Urnfielders.

 

[Aspurg]

I don't think Mezenai is an indigenous Thracian word. The most common word for a horse Thracians used is clearly related to Indo-Iranian etc. I think this is a word of local pre-Thracian strata possibly of MBA Central Balkan extraction.

I could also tell from previous positions of Matzinger than proto-Albanian and proto-Illyrian are not related. Known Illyrian roots do not correspond well to Albanian. Some Illyrian names would have sounded differently in proto-Albanian. But there is some Illyrian lexical influence in Albanian, this influence may be of Dardanian kind, there seems to be some evidence for that. Combined with the fact that place names like Shkupi and Nish seem to have developed in a manner consistent with Albanian phonological rules.

 

[Hawk]

I don't think Mezenai is an indigenous Thracian word. The most common word for a horse Thracians used is clearly related to Indo-Iranian etc. I think this is a word of local pre-Thracian strata possibly of MBA Central Balkan extraction.

I could also tell from previous positions of Matzinger than proto-Albanian and proto-Illyrian are not related. Known Illyrian roots do not correspond well to Albanian. Some Illyrian names would have sounded differently in proto-Albanian. But there is some Illyrian lexical influence in Albanian, this influence may be of Dardanian kind, there seems to be some evidence for that. Combined with the fact that place names like Shkupi and Nish seem to have developed in a manner consistent with Albanian phonological rules.

Obviously the first choice and the most common used word for horse in Thracian was mezenai just like it was used in that inscription from Plovdiv which is not even on Central Balkans.

 

[Aspurg]

Obviously the first choice and the most common used word for horse in Thracian was mezenai just like it was used in that inscription from Plovdiv which is not even on Central Balkans.

It was used in one inscription. The other word related to my nick was used in various Thracian personal names. And mezenai is a "horseman". Never have I see this name in Thracian (also Getic) personal names which makes me suspect its some pre-Thracian word.

 

[enter_tain]

Matzinger is a next level hoaxer. You can't etymologize exonyms to that detail. Maybe try to find a root word or two, but you can't pretend that's the EXACT form of those words. This dude unironically thinks Illyrian names ended in "um". That's how Romans wrote it. Imagine trying to etymologize "Austria" by ignoring the fact that the locals call it "Osterreich".

The Albanoi were an Illyrian tribe. There's no need to overcomplicate it. The Gheg/Tosk split happens very close to where the Albanoi lived. And Illyrian tribe names like "Taulant", "Dardan", "Delmeat", "Ulqin" and Messapian "Brindisi" have all been linked to Albanian animal/plant names. The Greeks even translated a sister/adjacent tribe to the Taulantii as "Khelidones" (Men of the Swallow), after the Albanian "Dallandyshe". Note that in Albanian t -> d, l -> ll shifts happpened.

This J2B2-L283 is just showing this was a proto-Illyrian marker, with Z638 being from Dalmatia -> southwards. Albania is the most populous and diverse L283 area today.

 

[Hawk]

It was used in one inscription. The other word related to my nick was used in various Thracian personal names. And mezenai is a "horseman". Never have I see this name in Thracian (also Getic) personal names which makes me suspect its some pre-Thracian word.

Well, we have to hear that from linguists. The other name for Thracian horse looks suspiciously Proto-Iranic related, so it can also be the Cimmerians-Scythians influenced them.

 

[Aspurg]

Well, we have to hear that from linguists.

I am a linguist (among others).:bigsmile:

 

[Aspurg]

The Albanoi were an Illyrian tribe. There's no need to overcomplicate it. The Gheg/Tosk split happens very close to where the Albanoi lived.

They lived in what was Illyria in Antiquity. But of the two personal names of Albanoi i.e. of people who lived in the late 1st century/early 2nd century AD in Albanopolis, one was definitely Thracian derived, the other was of Phrygian extraction. Which is very unusual but that is the order of things. So they do not appear Illyrian going by the evidence from 1900 years ago.

There is no evidence there was any Albanoi tribe in pre-Roman time. So these Albanoi could have been some settlers from Central Balkans.

There was a location named "Arbon" mentioned in 2nd century BC. But that is not a tribe. And the 6th century Abroi being related to them is just a speculation.

 

[Hawk]

I am a linguist (among others).:bigsmile:

TaktikatEMalet/ShpataEMadhe is a linguist as well. You need to consult with him.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Matzinger is a guy that has already been debunked as have most of these so called historians like Jon VA Fine, Georgiev, Weigand, Schramm etc. Matzinger is the guy who first mainly copy pasted Schramms work on the Bessi theory. His claim that Illyrian placenames do not match Albanian is also false.

[FONT=&quot]the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [/FONT][FONT=&quot](One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms.[/FONT]

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I mean historians and linguists *


I don't know why people take this Matzinger guy serious at this point. He seems to be the master of creating tin foil hat theories that have no evidence. I suggest to read on Eric Hamp and Albanian.

His theory about ''Undocumented Paleo-Balkan language'' is also hilarious, given that if we for example read Strabo's Geography, he mentions all the people from
Croatia down to Epirus as Illyrian, including the Dardani. There is no mention of any other major Indo-European speakers nor on the Illyrian side or Thracian.

Matzinger, the TIN FOIL HAT MASTER.