Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

Here you were claiming that the 1972 regime had "forced" the ë in Vëlla and you literally went so far as to claim that this isn't pronounced in "ANY ALBANIAN DIALECT" (your words).

Anybody who speaks Albanian knows that's not true and so should be able to recognise the dishonesty here.

All this despite the fact that the earliest Gegë and Tosk authors all use Vëlla.

This is an obvious case of motivated reasoning since you need to get rid of the /ë/ in vëlla so that you can force the "Bra" connection.

This is also why you ignore the great difference between Albanian. Motër and Albanian. vëlla since this is just one of the ten-fold reasons why your etymology is incorrect.

méh₂tēr gave Motër in Albanian and Mother in IE languages.


bʰréh₂tēr gave Brother in the IE languages, but is lost in Albanian.


Because of Motër and because of the sound laws of Albanian, we can reconstruct quite easily what bʰréh₂tēr would give in Albanian:

bʰréh₂tēr if it had survived in Albanian would give Brotër

This is just one of the countless countless reasons linguists have known for ages that Albanian. vëlla cannot come from bʰréh₂tēr

Then, the problem as was mentioned earlier of the plural, the sound laws not matching, and another massive issue:

Your argumentation likewise is built on a chronological fallacy, where you are cherry picking a contemporary dialectal innovation (for example shpi, which is older became "shpaj" in certain macedonian dialects, etc, someone arguing that shpaj is the older form and starting to cook up werid etymologies would be entirely wrong).

This is further compounded and made worse by using totally unrelated words, some loans (lumë is a loan from flumen), etc, to patch together some frankstein theory, and likewise misleadingly trying to brand a Peloponnesian gloss as Illyrian (and when caught out, calling it Epirotic of Thesprotia)

Honestly feel free to ask any linguist, there is no way Vëlla came from bʰréh₂tēr

 

[Dushman]

Literally every Albanian here knows that we all pronounce it ‘vlla’ and that ‘ë’ (schwa) is silent in vëlla and in hundreds of other words. Nobody other than Albanians visits this topic so who exactly are you trying to fool?

Similarly, ‘ë’ is a silent sound and in many cases it replaces Gheg a, e, and i, marrish vs marrësh, bân/bâj vs bëj, zân vs zënë, pregadit vs përgatit, and so on. The communists literally butchered Standard Albanian.

Furthermore, in the word vëlla the accent is on the a, pronounced vllá as in vllaaaa or in the case of the Ottomans in Kosovo who mistook the Gheg â for o and pronounce that and almost all the other words as vllooo.

You still don’t understand that it’s not Elis and Ilea. Hesychius wrote it with I and not E or H (he), that’s why the linguists couldn’t figure out and gave 2 versions, Hleiwn or Illyriwn, thinking that Hesychius couldn’t spell Elis. I didn’t invent this, it’s black on white.

I personally gave the possibility of Elea/Elaea of Thesprotia, Epirus because I have a brain and I don’t accept everything that some loser Albanologist feeds me. They’re known to be wrong and most linguistic theories have a short lifespan. Matzinger himself already corrected his old theories. Wait until he corrects himself again unless someone else does it before him and humiliates him.

Since it’s obvious you’re not that familiar with Albanian (besides your local dialect), shpaj/shpej is Southern Gheg not just Albanian from Macedonia. The Southern Ghegs say mostly shpaj, excluding the contact zone areas like Durres, Tirana, and Elbasan.

But obviously your knowledge on Albanian comes from Matzinger. You probably think Northwestern Gheg of Shkodra, Koplik, Dukagjin, Malesi e Madhe, etc. is the same.

 

[Johane Derite]

I personally gave the possibility of Elea/Elaea of Thesprotia, Epirus because I have a brain and I don’t accept everything that some loser Albanologist feeds me.

Now you finally admit that this is your personal forced reading, despite the authors clearly referring to Elis:

Elis or Ilia (Greek: Ηλεία, Ileia) is a historic region in the western part of the Peloponnese peninsula of Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elis?oldformat=true

 

[Illyria]

Eric Hamp argued that proto-Albanian descended from an earlier Proto-Albanoid Indo-European linguistic family that had its core in the Carpathian mountains, and once covered areas of East Czechia, Southern Poland, Western Ukraine, reached South to Northern Albania.

Are you trying to be sneaky? Lol. You're quoting Hamp saying that this area extended into Northern Albania, and you didn't even circle it lol, only Kosova. Hamp doesn't even mention Macedonia, but you circled it because of the Nish-Sharr-Shtip triangle and because the Bessi were there lol. Remember when we all learned that Channeled Ware extended into Northern Albania by 1200BC? Don't be shy, half of Albania should be circled! It's weird that you're doing the exact thing I quoted you on yesterday

Its like some people are ready to spit on the proto-Albanians if they are not from their own region..

I know you are not from Northern Albania proper but it's disingenuous to only include Kosova and not all of Northern Albania, especially when we know that Channeled Ware reached Northern Albania all the way down to the Ishem river, that's roughly half of Albania..

 

[Illyria]

Random fact interjection:
It seems to me that one a national level, Albania has the highest frequency of blood type AB with 11.63%:
https://rhesusnegative.net/themission/bloodtypefrequencies/

Interesting, what is the significance of this? I don't know anything about blood types, I did do a quick google search to see that the AB+ blood type is rare, only 2% of donors have it. Pretty cool that 10% of Albanians have it, 5 times the average amount!

 

[Illyria]

Around 600-700 AD is when the Tosk dialects experienced Rhotacism

Thanks

Did this 'n' -> 'r' change happen as a result of language contact with others, or was it caused by something else? Or do we not know yet

 

[Johane Derite]

Are you trying to be sneaky? Lol. You're quoting Hamp saying that this area extended into Northern Albania, and you didn't even circle it lol, only Kosova. Hamp doesn't even mention Macedonia, but you circled it because of the Nish-Sharr-Shtip triangle and because the Bessi were there lol. Remember when we all learned that Channeled Ware extended into Northern Albania by 1200BC? Don't be shy, half of Albania should be circled! It's weird that you're doing the exact thing I quoted you on yesterday


I know you are not from Northern Albania proper but it's disingenuous to only include Kosova and not all of Northern Albania, especially when we know that Channeled Ware reached Northern Albania all the way down to the Ishem river, that's roughly half of Albania..

The Proto-Albanoid group refers to a deep past period before the channeled ware expansion. Central Albania is not Northern Albania and North Albania is the edge of this group in this context. The core of this group was the Carpathians and near surrounding areas. I doubt there was even any Albanoid in Dardania or Kosova, only reason its inluded is because North Albania is the edge.

This map is a fully realistic depiction of this argument.

Expecting spekaers of the IE Albanoid group population tohave been in Ishëm before channeled ware makes no sense with his argument about this group. (namely relations between very early Albanoid dialects and and Balto-Slavic).

I dont care if proto-Albanians fall within borders of Kosova in the slightest.

 

[Illyria]

In the middle of the 6th century, during the reign of Byzantine emperorJustinian I (d. 565), a fortress of Arsa (Greek: Ἄρσα) in the province of Dardania was refortified, as attested by historian Procopius.^[3] At the beginning of the 7th century, Byzantine rule collapsed, and the region was settled by Serbs.^[4] Up to the middle of the 10th century, the fortress of Ras was a stronghold of the early medieval Principality of Serbia, as attested by the Byzantine emperor and historian Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (d. 959) in his work De Administrando Imperio.^[5] By that time, following the Christianization of the Serbs, the Eparchy of Ras was also created.^[6]

Here we see the fortress of Arsa undergo a change from 'Arsa'->'Ras' thru Slavs. I wonder if this was an Albanian toponym

Laberia underwent the same change, named from Albania, 'Alb'->'Lab', from Slavic liquid metathesis and pleophony

The toponym Labëri/-a and the name of the Albanian sub-group: Lab (also Labe, Labi), pl. Lebër, are endonyms formed from the root *arb/*alb (cf. the ancient ethonym Αλβανοί, Albanoi by Ptolemy, and Αλβανοί, Αρβανίται in Byzantine sources). The variant lab-, which goes back to *alb-, resulted from a metathesis characteristic of Common Slavic, and was reborrowed in that form into Albanian.^[1

There are also glosses of Slavic words in foreign-language sources. Earlier sources show no effect of liquid metathesis, such as when the late-8th-century Greek chronicler Theophanes the Confessor writes Slavic names as Ἀρδάγαστος (Ardágastos) and Δαργαμηρός (Dargamērós). Old Church Slavonic versions of the names, with the metathesis applied, would be Radogostъ and Dragoměrъ. Liquid metathesis is also seen in various borrowings preserved in toponymics; Latin Arba > Serbo-Croatian Rȃb, Latin Albōna > Serbo-Croatian Làbīn, Latin Scardōna > Serbo-Croatian Skràdīn etc.

Since the reflexes of acuted word-initial *ar- and *al- are the same in all Slavic dialects, they must have changed before the syllables ending with a liquid, which have different reflexes.^[1] One can thus distinguish the first and the second metathesis of liquids.

Could this be of significance to why we see the names Arber/Albani and also Alb/Lab? Could this also be of significance to the Gheg-Tosk split?


Something else I found interesting and relevant

The toponym Arbëri, now used as a variant of Labëri and only to refer to a small mountainous region extending within the triangle: Vlorë-Sarandë-Tepelenë, formerly had a broader usage referring in the old times generally to Albania and Albanians (arbëror, subst. arbëresh). The variants Arbëri/Labëri were used narrowly to designate a country inhabited by the Labs, i.e. Albanians proper.^[2]
The link to the older form of the toponym was preserved until the late Ottoman period as suggested in documents of the court of Ali Pasha of Tepelena and other publications.^[3] As reported by Hahn (1854), at his time the toponym Arbërí was used in the strict sense to denote the highland area at the back of Vlorë, i.e. Kurvelesh and Labëria; however, according to him, it was used in a wider sense including also Himarë up to Delvinë, that is the ancient Chaonia.^[4]

 

[Johane Derite]

Here we see the fortress of Arsa undergo a change from 'Arsa'->'Ras' thru Slavs. I wonder if this was an Albanian toponym

Laberia underwent the same change, named from Albania, 'Alb'->'Lab', from Slavic liquid metathesis and pleophony







Could this be of significance to why we see the names Arber/Albani and also Alb/Lab? Could this also be of significance to the Gheg-Tosk split?


Something else I found interesting and relevant

Slavic liquid metathesis happened around 800s a bit later than the period of Tosk rhotacism (600s-700s AD).

Old Serbian Rabьnь for Arbanon and Rabьnski for Albanian

There is also the Croatian island Rab which is typical example of metathesis via Slavic as the pre-slavic name was known as Arba (this is the Arbon that appears in Polybius and Stephanus of Byzantium, which some are misleadingly claiming is Albanopolis in Wikipedia)

 

[torzio]

Interesting, what is the significance of this? I don't know anything about blood types, I did do a quick google search to see that the AB+ blood type is rare, only 2% of donors have it. Pretty cool that 10% of Albanians have it, 5 times the average amount!

he is saying of the world..... 2% have AB

and of the albanian population 10% have this 2% of the world AB

how hard is that to understand !

 

[Hawk]

Eric Hamp argued that proto-Albanian descended from an earlier Proto-Albanoid Indo-European linguistic family that had its core in the Carpathian mountains, and once covered areas of East Czechia, Southern Poland, Western Ukraine, reached South to Northern Albania.

I was thinking of this too Derite, if Proto-Albanian was already from Early Bronze Age among Brnjica it should have quite a lot of cognates with Greco-Armenian since they should have been in extensive contacts. But, so far facts point to and mirror Gava/Channeled-Ware expansion.

 

[enter_tain]

Are you trying to be sneaky? Lol. You're quoting Hamp saying that this area extended into Northern Albania, and you didn't even circle it lol, only Kosova. Hamp doesn't even mention Macedonia, but you circled it because of the Nish-Sharr-Shtip triangle and because the Bessi were there lol. Remember when we all learned that Channeled Ware extended into Northern Albania by 1200BC? Don't be shy, half of Albania should be circled! It's weird that you're doing the exact thing I quoted you on yesterday


I know you are not from Northern Albania proper but it's disingenuous to only include Kosova and not all of Northern Albania, especially when we know that Channeled Ware reached Northern Albania all the way down to the Ishem river, that's roughly half of Albania..

This dude constantly lies. I've pointed out before that he doesn't even quote people properly and just changes his "sources" up.

 

[Johane Derite]

I was thinking of this too Derite, if Proto-Albanian was already from Early Bronze Age among Brnjica it should have quite a lot of cognates with Greco-Armenian since they should have been in extensive contacts. But, so far facts point to and mirror Gava/Channeled-Ware expansion.

I still don't have a strong opinion on this one, but because of the Gava-Carpathian connection I am leaning a bit more for channeled ware being related to EV13, but I still don't know if this was one of the major lineages of that proto-Albanoid IE group.

I saw this "interesting" hypothesis from some circles in twitter that EV13 in Albanians represents low status Pelasgians that R1b and J2b, the "primary bearers of Albanian culture" enslaved.

It doesn't seem to fit the data as the explosion of EV13 lineages in the LBA doesn't really fit any sort of enslavement scenario as slaves tend to be marginalized and die out, not become the most numerous haplogroup among a people.

If EV13 was one of the major lineages to spread with Channeled ware this also wouldn't really match any sort of scenario where EV13 comes from Pelasgian slaves. Interesting stuff.

 

[Dushman]

Now you finally admit that this is your personal forced reading, despite the authors clearly referring to Elis:

Elis or Ilia (Greek: Ηλεία, Ileia) is a historic region in the western part of the Peloponnese peninsula of Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elis?oldformat=true

Finally admit? I’ve been pointing out your lack of personal opinions and logic all this time. For the 10th time, he wrote about Ileiwn not Hleiwn, so it’s not Elis in Peloponnese. On top of it, Elis spoke proper Greek and it’s the 6th century AD where Greek Koine was strongly established for hundreds of years. No chance they went around saying ‘vra’.

By the way, did Matzinger reply to your email?

 

[mount123]

Mount is just retarded. Keep in mind a lot of Kosovars are kind of crazy thanks to the war, and I think you should be empathetic to that.

Just "retarded" because I am not in line with Albanian nationalistic ideas that don't have a factual scientific basis? And now also crazy because I lived through the Kosovo war as a baby?

You, Dushman, Excine and Entertain are repeatedly insulting users here because they condemn your nationalistic posts that don't even have anything to do with the thread's topic.

 

[Excine]

You, Dushman, Excine and Entertain are repeatedly insulting users here because they condemn your nationalistic posts that don't even have anything to do with the thread's topic.

I make a conscious effort to avoid personally attacking people. However, the same could be said for everybody who has offended someone on this forum lol.

Additionally, I am rarely active on this forum. I'm not sure where you got that notion.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Think he might be mistaking you for someone else. You seem one of the more sensible members.

 

[enter_tain]

Also, if anyone wants to see an Illyrian-Albanian connection in the south, look at Baba Tomor named after the mountain. He was a pagan god, and the "Zeus" equivalent, the ruler of all Gods, in Albanian mythology. The Illyrian name recorded was "Tomaros" by the Greek. (The -os ending probably a Hellenism).

The Geg/Tosk split happened post-Christianity and pre-Slavic migrations sometime between 4th and 6th century AD, meaning Albanians had a long distant root with Tomorri mountain in the south long before the Christianisation of Albania (2nd to 4th century). These Transylvanians or Dacians or whatever can keep making their idiotic theories though.

 

[torzio]

Also, if anyone wants to see an Illyrian-Albanian connection in the south, look at Baba Tomor named after the mountain. He was a pagan god, and the "Zeus" equivalent, the ruler of all Gods, in Albanian mythology. The Illyrian name recorded was "Tomaros" by the Greek. (The -os ending probably a Hellenism).

The Geg/Tosk split happened post-Christianity and pre-Slavic migrations sometime between 4th and 6th century AD, meaning Albanians had a long distant root with Tomorri mountain in the south long before the Christianisation of Albania (2nd to 4th century). These Transylvanians or Dacians or whatever can keep making their idiotic theories though.

It does not mean anything

Hittites ( and most other ancient s) accepted every God of the conquered people as their own..............it just makes sense to calm the conquered ASAP

 

[Hawk]

I still don't have a strong opinion on this one, but because of the Gava-Carpathian connection I am leaning a bit more for channeled ware being related to EV13, but I still don't know if this was one of the major lineages of that proto-Albanoid IE group.

Me neither, we are just discussing all possible options, so to summarize what options do we have:

1. Channeled-Ware ancestry of Albanoid
2. Illyrian/Glasinac-like ancestry of Albanoid (an option which Matzinger is not considering, thinking Albanian and Illyrian are two separate languages but had extensive contact)
2. Brnjica Culture ancestry of Albanoid

Outside these three scopes, i doubt we will have different possibilities.

I saw this "interesting" hypothesis from some circles in twitter that EV13 in Albanians represents low status Pelasgians that R1b and J2b, the "primary bearers of Albanian culture" enslaved.

It doesn't seem to fit the data as the explosion of EV13 lineages in the LBA doesn't really fit any sort of enslavement scenario as slaves tend to be marginalized and die out, not become the most numerous haplogroup among a people.

If EV13 was one of the major lineages to spread with Channeled ware this also wouldn't really match any sort of scenario where EV13 comes from Pelasgian slaves. Interesting stuff.

He just expressed in a way what Bruzmi was trying to propagate all the way. He is not trying to prove Illyrian ancestry for E-V13, he is desperately trying to disprove any connection of E-V13 with Thracians and propose Middle Age expansion of E-V13 so it better fits his narrative/imagination. I have seen several times from some circles pushing this.