Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

No it doesnt mean that at it all. That is a logical non-sequitor. Regardless, here hamp doesn't even give an argument so not only can you not at all infer that he must therefore reject both, but you also don't have any argument as to why, so we are just supposed to take it on faith? Lets see his reasoning please?

I am 100% sure that if there was an Illyrian king called Burebista, and the Greek. Pistandros argument was made, it would be impossible for anyone to convince you guys it wasn't related to Albanian. Burrë. I have no doubt in my mind.

This one sided skepticism is totally cancerous.

Suddenly when something is thracian or dacian you all turn to rigorous and cautious scientists, but with any Illyrian name, even the most stretched possible parallel with Albanian is taken at face value.

Andros and Burrë have the exact same meaning, so this for me is interesting enough to merit mention. If i see argumentation why its wrong that makes sense, I will change my mind. It can be some coincidence, but to intentionally play dumb and ask to supress it is entirely disngenous.

Likewise the name of a Dacian king Diegis and the personal Dacian name Degis have been argued to be related with Albanian. Djeg

I think that a relation is possible here also. How distant this relation is I dont know, but some archaic calendar names (djegagur, digjepiq etc) and old toponyms like " kuji djegsinës, lugu djegsinës" . make me think this would have been used also in personal names also in antiquity.

I also find it odd that he points out supposed claims that Naissus is "Illyrian territory".

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Matzinger is E-V13 himself.

Wasn't Eslie as well? Fate has its own way. People claim lineages don't mean anything, but what are the odds, to me this is genetic instinct gravitating toward its own kind.

 

[enter_tain]

It does not mean anything

Hittites ( and most other ancient s) accepted every God of the conquered people as their own..............it just makes sense to calm the conquered ASAP

You didn't read what I wrote did you? This is pre-Christianization. These are pagan traditions. This is during the period where that area was still Illyrian.

This squarely puts Albanian speaking people deep into southern Albania in Illyrian times. This is also backed by the nearby Dimalum (Di/Dy + Male = Two Mountains) toponym nearby.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I have no problem about it, but Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was mostly focused on South Italy, Campania largely untouched by Daunians/Messapians and Greek/Italian archeologists disagree with Garasanin, they give the initial origin point somewhere in Greece spreading in Macedonia/Albania/Epirus. Better said, there is no clear connection.

And that doesn't clear the case whether Daunians or Messapians came from Albania or Dalmatia.

Daunians settled in northern Apulia, could be they are separate from Messapians and represent a Dalmatian offshoot vs the real Messapians coming from Albania and representing an older culture.

 

[torzio]

You didn't read what I wrote did you? This is pre-Christianization. These are pagan traditions. This is during the period where that area was still Illyrian.

This squarely puts Albanian speaking people deep into southern Albania in Illyrian times. This is also backed by the nearby Dimalum (Di/Dy + Male = Two Mountains) toponym nearby.

Hittites are pre christianization .........do you think people where Christianized as soon as christ was nailed on the cross !

It was not accepted in the Roman western Empire ................and only accepted very late in Roman AD eastern empire

 

[PaleoRevenge]

No it doesnt mean that at it all. That is a logical non-sequitor. Regardless, here hamp doesn't even give an argument so not only can you not at all infer that he must therefore reject both, but you also don't have any argument as to why, so we are just supposed to take it on faith? Lets see his reasoning please?
I am 100% sure that if there was an Illyrian king called Burebista, and the Greek. Pistandros argument was made, it would be impossible for anyone to convince you guys it wasn't related to Albanian. Burrë. I have no doubt in my mind.
This one sided skepticism is totally cancerous.
Suddenly when something is thracian or dacian you all turn to rigorous and cautious scientists, but with any Illyrian name, even the most stretched possible parallel with Albanian is taken at face value.
Andros and Burrë have the exact same meaning, so this for me is interesting enough to merit mention. If i see argumentation why its wrong that makes sense, I will change my mind. It can be some coincidence, but to intentionally play dumb and ask to supress it is entirely disngenous.
Likewise the name of a Dacian king Diegis and the personal Dacian name Degis have been argued to be related with Albanian. Djeg
I think that a relation is possible here also. How distant this relation is I dont know, but some archaic calendar names (djegagur, digjepiq etc) and old toponyms like " kuji djegsinës, lugu djegsinës" . make me think this would have been used also in personal names also in antiquity.

Johane and hawk, thanks for all your work. I'm sure it's gets annoying arguing with people that resort to incredible mental gymnastics to force a narrative and make absurd connections that clearly don't exists. Linguistic links do not need any forcing and duck taping, if the connection is real, it simply makes sense, it is straight forward and it feels liberating, as the truth always does.

I still believe we have to look at any medieval census data from the area east of Nish, all the way to Sofia. A small enclave of Albanian speakers likely remained and was eventually merged with the encroaching Slavs, but their names would have endured for a while. I would not be surprised if Albanian derived names appear among the locals all the way into the 1300s. I have seen videos of the people from those parts, and they remind me of us. Haplorgoup E is obviously high, even their home architecture departs from the Slavic type. They are to a great extend a pre-Slavic population. And if they are not of Vlach background, they would be a kindred people to Albanians.

 

[Hawk]

Wasn't Eslie as well? Fate has its own way. People claim lineages don't mean anything, but what are the odds, to me this is genetic instinct gravitating toward its own kind.

I have no idea, was just joking. Probably Matzinger itself has pure linguistic reasons. As i said before would be good to hear from other people how do they find Matzinger's conclusions. Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't want to deal with Balkanic issues due to political turmoils and it's implications, so they just ghost this issue.

 

[Johane Derite]

Google translated from Schramm on the Christian vocabulary of Tosk being the same as Gegë:

"The map on the right shows that from the Shkumbini onwards Greek served as the church language southwards, while Latin served northwards.

A similarly large number of bishoprics can be expected for both cultural zones.


Given the autochthony of both Albanian dialects, this must lead to different fiefdoms in the two main dialectics of Albanian.


A Greek base for the Christian vocabulary could be expected for Tosk and a Latin base for Geg.


In reality, a Latin foundation is common to both dialects. This finding also speaks against an autochthony south of the Shkumbini."

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There is no true professionalism in Albania, this has nothing to do with bad implications, just people who have no competence and can't handle a serious discussion. And the government which is the successor of the communists, never had any good intentions. They prefer people live in fantasy land as they rob the people dry, i ngopin njerzit me fjal te embla, dhe barkun ja lejn bosh.


The village of Lyalintsi in Bulgaria according to wikipedia:

Lyalintsi (Bulgarian: Лялинци) is a village in Tran Municipality, Pernik Province. It is located in western Bulgaria, 65 km from the capital city of Sofia. The village was first mentioned in 1446 as Lelintsi and in 1455 as Lyalintsi. It is derived from the personal name Lyalya, "aunt", the nickname lyalya or lala, itself from Proto-Slavic *l'al'a, "babbler, fool" or from the personal name Lyala, an affectionate form of Vlado (Vladimir, Vladislav).[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyalintsi



I have no idea how they linked lala to Balto-slavic or Vlado, if that was case it would be widespread among all Slavs. Lala is Albanian derived and an expression that still survives in modern Albanian, lala, lalush, etc.. and a common surname among all Albophone speakers.

Interesting the same settlement name is mirrored across the border in Serbia, but in Serbian pronunciation, through a Serbian throat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalince



Both of these are located inside or very near the Nish-Shkupi-Shtip triangle.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

On the Stara Planina mountain range there is a region called Arbinje Waterfalls. An interesting name, especially since it is in the form very similar to medieval Albania, Arbanon.
https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Строги_резерват_природе_Арбиње

A little further north in the same mountain chain, there is a waterfall called Krmoljski vodopad. The name does not appear to be Slavic, just slavized in pronunciation. I speculate it comes from kermill (snail). https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...a038ae42f3f2fb4!8m2!3d43.3688906!4d22.7406608

If we follow this mountain chain all the way up to Danube, it leads to Dobreta, which Johane posted speculation being related to Albanan drute (woodland).

 

[Johane Derite]

According to Paulinus, Nicetas of Remesiana preached Christianity to the Scythians, Getae, Dacians, and the Bessi.


Did Nicetas of Remesiana convert the Proto-Albanians to Christianity?


Schramm believed so.

 

[Johane Derite]

According to Paulinus, Nicetas of Remesiana preached Christianity to the Scythians, Getae, Dacians, and the Bessi.


Did Nicetas of Remesiana convert the Proto-Albanians to Christianity?


Schramm believed so.

Paulinus mentions the felt cap (Pileus) wearing people living on the river bank alongside these nations that called Nicetas of Remesiana their "Father".

 

[Johane Derite]

Bowden argues that from a culture-historic framework, the "rapid appearance of these objects and burial practices" from Komani culture suggests an "invading or migrating group",

making it more likely that the Komani culture represented a Romanised Illyrian group that moved into Albania from further north, displaced by Slavs.

 

[Frosty_Chateux]

Albanian sounds pretty cool, better than Slavic languages I'd argue.

 

[Oroku Saki]

We are witnessing the genetic confirmation of the inevitable Bessian origin of the proto-Albanians, much to the horror of some Albanian J2b2 carriers.. All your lies and effort for nothing..

Recently a BigY of a North Macedonian was done, and he is positive for all SNP's at the E-Y140828 level, except for the Y146090.

So Y140828 is now divided into:
-North Macedonian from Shtip
-Albanians

Shtip being one of few early toponyms of Albanian origin means this Macedonian is a proto-Albanian who stayed home, whereas most others migrated to the West. Their TMRCA is just around 1000 ybp.

Additionally, Bulgarian BigY profiled E-BY147386, a new clade under Z5018 with a German. Here belongs the Albanian Nivica cluster.

Very close to this Bulgarian is 849049 on the Albanian project, I guess this is some Westerner without origin idea, as he is so close to the Bulgarian. Multiple other Bulgarians belong to E-BY147386, but importantly, there is a subcluster under E-BY147386 defined by dys391=11, Nivica cluster has this value, Bulgarian with BigY doesnt, all other Bulgarians do. So this would imply that Nivica migrated to Albania around 1000+ years ago..

 

[torzio]

We are witnessing the genetic confirmation of the inevitable Bessian origin of the proto-Albanians, much to the horror of some Albanian J2b2 carriers.. All your lies and effort for nothing..

Recently a BigY of a North Macedonian was done, and he is positive for all SNP's at the E-Y140828 level, except for the Y146090.

So Y140828 is now divided into:
-North Macedonian from Shtip
-Albanians

Shtip being one of few early toponyms of Albanian origin means this Macedonian is a proto-Albanian who stayed home, whereas most others migrated to the West. Their TMRCA is just around 1000 ybp.

Additionally, Bulgarian BigY profiled E-BY147386, a new clade under Z5018 with a German. Here belongs the Albanian Nivica cluster.

Very close to this Bulgarian is 849049 on the Albanian project, I guess this is some Westerner without origin idea, as he is so close to the Bulgarian. Multiple other Bulgarians belong to E-BY147386, but importantly, there is a subcluster under E-BY147386 defined by dys391=11, Nivica cluster has this value, Bulgarian with BigY doesnt, all other Bulgarians do. So this would imply that Nivica migrated to Albania around 1000+ years ago..

IIRC the Bessi are a thracian tribe living in the modern greek province called Thrace .............basically East of ancient Macedonia .............they are part of the odrysian thracian
group.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

 

[Oroku Saki]

IIRC the Bessi are a thracian tribe living in the modern greek province called Thrace .............basically East of ancient Macedonia .............they are part of the odrysian thracian
group.

Check the post no. 1078.

That was in the era of Herodotus. In Late Antiquity, 3rd-4th century AD, the Bessi were located in NE Macedonia, SE Serbia and W.Bulgaria. Exactly in the same area where the two early Albanian originated toponyms are located: Nish and Shtip. No such thing can be claimed for anything in Albania.

 

[Excine]

Someone ban Huban's stupid sock. This is getting out of hand.

 

[Excine]

We are witnessing the genetic confirmation of the inevitable Bessian origin of the proto-Albanians, much to the horror of some Albanian J2b2 carriers.. All your lies and effort for nothing..

Recently a BigY of a North Macedonian was done, and he is positive for all SNP's at the E-Y140828 level, except for the Y146090.

So Y140828 is now divided into:
-North Macedonian from Shtip
-Albanians

Shtip being one of few early toponyms of Albanian origin means this Macedonian is a proto-Albanian who stayed home, whereas most others migrated to the West. Their TMRCA is just around 1000 ybp.

Additionally, Bulgarian BigY profiled E-BY147386, a new clade under Z5018 with a German. Here belongs the Albanian Nivica cluster.

Very close to this Bulgarian is 849049 on the Albanian project, I guess this is some Westerner without origin idea, as he is so close to the Bulgarian. Multiple other Bulgarians belong to E-BY147386, but importantly, there is a subcluster under E-BY147386 defined by dys391=11, Nivica cluster has this value, Bulgarian with BigY doesnt, all other Bulgarians do. So this would imply that Nivica migrated to Albania around 1000+ years ago..

In Proto-Albanian, there are numerous toponyms; one of them is Shtip. This demonstrates that Proto-Albanians also lived in Shtip, not that they did not live elsewhere or even that the Shtip sample is not simply a medieval Albanian who relocated there from elsewhere. We have many more samples and diversity within Dardania and northern Albania areas than the opposite. Shtip had Dardanians. All scholars agree that the Bessi nonsense is beyond credibility as a theory. Only one individual banned from all anthro-forums became obsessed with it.

One example among the countless (first found in anthrogenica):

E-V13>Z19851* from Albania. The other subclades under E-A18833 are downstream in a 4000-year-distance from E-Z19851*. After searching, I found that there is a sample from the Bosniak DNA Project near Prizren who is E-Z19851* (not shown in the anthrogenica visual). 4000 years of diversity packed into one small area in the northern Albanian mountains.

PS "Oroku Saki" is obviously not a new user. Mods should check it.

 

[Oroku Saki]

In Proto-Albanian, there are numerous toponyms; one of them is Shtip.

Derite explained to you earlier how all those toponyms connecting Albanian language with the area of Albania proper are without linguistic foundation or with the dubious one at best. The only certain ones are from Dardania.

This demonstrates that Proto-Albanians also lived in Shtip, not that they did not live elsewhere

Indeed, I fully agree. Other than in Shtip the Proto-Albanians also lived in Nish. And for anything else there is no firm evidence.

or even that the Shtip sample is not simply a medieval Albanian who relocated there from elsewhere. We have many more samples and diversity within Dardania and northern Albania areas than the opposite. Shtip had Dardanians. All scholars agree that the Bessi nonsense is beyond credibility as a theory.

Maybe he is but the fact that he is not close to any Albanians raises strong doubts. If he was just an Albanian, he would have clustered with some Albanian subclusters. Instead, he split the clade..

Only one individual banned from all anthro-forums became obsessed with it.

I am not most "obsessed" with it. Poreklo admin is also big on it.:bigsmile: I think he speaks some Albanian too. Rrenjet admin came there, and started talking about Albanian-Illyrian name parallels, and instantly he appeared with the linguistic rebuttal of most of those. Justifiably, Christian names are not Illyrian. And he is an archeologist, he brought these late Bessi archeological finds into the internet spotlight.

I agree with you proto-Albanians came from Dardanian areas. There is also some Illyrian related evidence pointing to Illyrians from Dardania.. But the Matzinger, along with other linguists has given the final verdict. Albanian language is not Illyrian. It is derived of some population which lived under the Illyrian dynasty.
And as clearly demonstrated, Bessi in Late Antiquity lived also in Dardania.. And they are the only late Paleo-balkan group with proved archeological existence.

Not the Latino-Avar Komani Kruja culture..

One example among the countless (first found in anthrogenica):

E-V13>Z19851* from Albania. The other subclades under E-A18833 are downstream in a 4000-year-distance from E-Z19851*. After searching, I found that there is a sample from the Bosniak DNA Project near Prizren who is E-Z19851* (not shown in the anthrogenica visual). 4000 years of diversity packed into one small area in the northern Albanian mountains.

There is also one Greek from Athens who tested as Z19851* at the FTDNA. Maybe some of these are related to him. Greek has Y111.

And?? aDNA trumps any modern day distribution. There was no meaningful V13 South of Danube river prior to LBA. Deal with it.. You and Bruzmi are promoting 15 year old debunked crackpot theory about the origin of V13..