Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

Albanian should sit between Etruscan and Thracian in link below

 

[blevins13]

The crux of Matzinger's argument? That proto-Albanian wasn't in Albania in the pre-Roman period?




I share directly from primary sources with screenshots of page number and article. I provide literally all context.

So lets talk about context then. Albanian is related to Indian and Iranian. Albanian is related to Tocharian. Albanian is related to all the Indo-European languages since they all come from proto-Indo-European. But compared to Indian, Albanian is obviously more closely related to Illyrian, Messapic, Greek, Phrygian, etc. So the closer we get to the proto-Albanian group, while still not actually being the proto-Albanian group, the more we will find similar isoglosses and words that resemble Albanian. That is the context here. He is explaining why we can find some words that resemble Albanian in Illyrian and Messapic, while these languages are still not Albanian. Whereas you guys are precisely trying to find single words like Dimal, and use that as proof that they were speaking proto-Albanian, which is totally wrong. That is the context of this quote, which by the way I have posted first online in forums and similar spaces years ago. Matzinger makes clear to say in the quote you included:

"Although it is widely believed that Albanian goes back to Illyrian or even Thracian, this view cannot be seriously upheld from the linguistic point of view. Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom."

Further, you say this quote from 2018 is "complementary", then why are you supressing and wilfully ignoring the results and arguments of his latest study posted in 2022, where he definitely adds up on and brings "complementary" information about Illyrian and Messapic? Namely, that Illyrian conforms to an East Alpine Block, while Messapic does not. Why so silent on this?



Yes, this is totally right, Romanian has loans from proto-Albanian, this is one of the biggest reasons why proto-Albanian had to be further inland away from Albania during this time.




I'm not going to correct anything because I've done nothing wrong. I share Duridanov's opinion that this is a Daco-Mysian name. I shared Smerdaleos post on that post, anybody that wishes to go the route he goes is free to.

I'm totally unconvinced by the attempt to link it with Albanian. be, and it clearly is just a cognate of Greek. Φαῖδρος (phaidrós), Latin. Phaedrus. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Φαῖδρος

So even if it was Delmato-Pannonian, it is totally irrelevant to the post, since the point was the Albanian accent on top of the placename, not the etymology, which isn't proto-Albanian either way.

Neither Nish or Shtip have Albanian etymology, but they have an Albanian accent transformation that allows us to place proto-Albanian speakers there before Slavs, that is the point.

If you think there were Delmato-Pannonians living near Shtip in Bederiana than you can go ahead and do that, but this is a ridiculous belief.

You losers contribute nothing to anything. You create nothing. All you can do is whine about the work of others and try pull other people down, you are totally unable to build anything of your own.

The best hope is an autolarje / lavazh for your kind. Not too cognitively demanding.

“Namely, that Illyrian conforms to an East Alpine Block, while Messapic does not.” Does this makes sense, since Messapic tribes came from Dalmatia and share the same y-Dna? I thought the connection between Messapic and Illyrian was proven after the DNA study.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Hawk]

They’re not thick or stupid, they have an agenda. Hawk already admitted of being autosomally the Easternmost Albanian with Asian eyes (his own words in Eupedia).

They want to get the exclusivity of the Albanian language and drag all Albanians towards a North-Eastern homeland of E-V13 to justify their autosomal profiles.

So they need their 3 pillars of identity (yDNA, auDNA, and language) to overlap in 1 single region to feel good about themselves.

Notice how Derite is so good at picking up Turkish words. It’s the second time he does it with me with the last one being ‘dori’ (red-brown horse). I’ve read this word in an Arvanite dictionary and it was in Greek too as doris, but never knew about its etymology.

It’s not unreasonable to think he’s one of those Prizren Turks.

Listen up, you have a big mouth, in some posts without any provocations you insulted family members of whole Southern Albanians, but bear in mind that those are heavy insults and someone can come to your house and make you pay every single word. Don't be so stupid, it's internet but don't push yourself too much.

This is the context of my quote

I am the easternmost Albanian around, and i am one of the Alboz with least Anatolian/Levantine from all Albanians, technically i am a EEF/Yamnaya mix combo almost 60/40 ratio. I always thought i might have some Turkic admixture due to the pseudo-Mongoloid eyes i have, but i guess it's just the Yamnaya/EEF combo which makes me look like that.

I said i am the most Easternmost Albanian geographically with Pseudo-Mongoloid eyes (and that was more when i was a child, Northern Europeans do a lot), and autosomally i have 0% Asian, 0% recent Anatolian, and i am more European than you who scores Iran Ganji Dari 3-5 times more than me. So you just twisted my words, you attempted to lie about me.

I am not sure if you are really E-V13, i have the feeling you are lying, you give me vibes of Dema, that might make sense considering your connections and sympathies with some people who hate Derite, and you presenting yourself as E-V13 makes it easier to make propaganda.

 

[Fustan]

wow tough guy hawk.. so this is the power of neo-thracians... empty threats on an autistic anthro fora...

 

[Hawk]

wow tough guy hawk.. so this is the power of neo-thracians... empty threats on an autistic anthro fora...

You guys collectively just attempt to twist facts/words lol. I am not Southern Albanian, so it was just more like an observation. For a guy pretending to fight for Albanian cause, heavily insulting Southern Albanians like that, is a paradox and it's quite suspicious.

You are just intimidated by facts and arguments, and you must resort to petty discussions and ad-hominems.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

You guys collectively just attempt to twist facts/words lol. I am not Southern Albanian, so it was just more like an observation. For a guy pretending to fight for Albanian cause, heavily insulting Southern Albanians like that, is a paradox and it's quite suspicious.

You are just intimidated by facts and arguments, and you must resort to petty discussions and ad-hominems.

You are intentionally abusing with the names of respected archaeologists, Prendi and Korkutaj. It's not the first time that you are manipulating with their names. It's impossible that these respected scholars are in the same league with charlatans like Matzinger.

What Wilkes was writing and Derite interpreting is that, Albanians do have partial Illyrian ancestry, but the Illyrians are not their linguistic ancestors. And this is what Matzinger is saying as well. He is proposing that those Albanian-Illyrian words are nothing more than folk etymologies, and essentially they don't belong to the same language family. Something which needs to be evaluated by other linguists as well.

As for archeology part Matzinger/Lippert are basing/quoting their writing on Albanian archaeologists Frano Prendi, Muzafer Korkuti and Yugoslav ones Mario Gavranovic.

I don't know what is it that you are not grasping?

 

[Hawk]

You are intentionally abusing with the names of respected archaeologists, Prendi and Korkutaj. It's not the first time that you are manipulating with their names. It's impossible that these respected scholars are in the same league with charlatans like Matzinger.

Matzinger is not a charlatan, he is a respected linguist on his field. And for archaeological part he probably never even edited or took part, he relied on Andreas Lippert one of the most respected archaeology professors from Vienna University.

So, what am i abusing? And what did Andreas Lippert said?

Let me put straightforward, Andreas Lippert on 2018:

THE PROTOURBAN ILLYRIANS IN THE LATE IRON AGEAND THEIR CONTACTS TO THE GREEK WORLD


Already in the Early and so more in the Middle amd Late Bronze Aegean ceramics and weapons are imported and imitated. But there is also a strong influence from the Danubian Urnfield culture. Characteristic for the Late Bronze Age are large hilltop-settlements with wall fortifications. Since that age there is a continuity of the indigene material culture in the Southern Adriatic areas and the new cultural unity has been called Mat-Glasinac-Culture in reference to the North-Albanian river Mat and the tableland of Glasinac in the Herzegovina. In the Early Iron Age (11th - 8th cent. B.C.) the contacts to Greece increase steadily and reach a high level at the end of the Middle Iron Age in the 7th cent. with numerous imports of fine ware, ornaments and offensive as well as defensive arms, just as swords, helmets and greaves.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=628459&viewfull=1#post628459

And, in his 2021 book Die Illyrer(the archaeological part of the book was written by Andreas Lippert, the linguistic part by Joachim Matzinger), Andreas Lippert drops his opinion of strong influence from the Danubian Urnfield culture (after probably extensive look and not considering Veneti, Histri as proper Illyrian anymore) in support of Yugoslav archaeologists like Benac, Albanian archaeologists like Frano Prendi, and probably from the latest one to deal with the Proto-Illyrian issue like Mario Gavranovic that Proto-Illyrians had little Urnfield influence. This is 100% correct.

Frano Prendi was of that opinion, he said that Pannonian Urnfield or so called Danubian Urnfield influenced only Southern Albania during Bronze to Iron Age transition. Benac was the first to put this opinion forward though, which was supported by Frano Prendi.

Frano Prendi never even mentioned anything beyond Illyrian archaeological records, i didn't quote him saying that Illyrians and Albanians don't have continuity, Muzafer Korkutaj neither, Korkutaj mentioned the Kanellure influence on Late Bronze Age Albania, probably Kanellure was another name for Pannonian Urnfield which Frano Prendi already mentioned, but it had limited effect only on Southern Albania.

So, to summarize, Andreas Lippert/Joachim Matzinger in the book 2021 Die Illyrer agree with Frano Prendi/Benac/Gavranovic/Korkutaj that Proto-Illyrians had not strong Danubian Urnfield influence.But, how much Danubian Urnfield influence they had, that's still up to discussion. More extensive archaeological excavations will reveal more, just like Liburnian sites which quite recently revealed the cremation graves in urns.

 

[Johane Derite]

Listen up, you have a big mouth, in some posts without any provocations you insulted family members of whole Southern Albanians, but bear in mind that those are heavy insults and someone can come to your house and make you pay every single word. Don't be so stupid, it's internet but don't push yourself too much

Tbh I think it's too late for them, but I don't think they will get any backlash from south albanians but rather probably kosova albanians.

Some of the stuff this guy and fustan wrote about kosova albanians, even saying filthy things about war victims, I'm pretty sure they will face consequences. There are Kosova Albanians that will not tolerate offending them on certain subjects, especially if they have victims in their family from the war, and also tbh they are vengeful and not about forgive and forget. Kosova youth has thousands working in IT, this site is super easy to track IPs through, and there are some lines that cannot be crossed. Their obsession with hating on kosova albanians is recorded here on countless posts and will cost them imo.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Matzinger is not a charlatan, he is a respected linguist on his field. And for archaeological part he probably never even edited or took part, he relied on Andreas Lippert one of the most respected archaeology professors from Vienna University.

So, what am i abusing? And what did Andreas Lippert said?

Let me put straightforward, Andreas Lippert on 2018:



And, in his 2021 book Die Illyrer(the archaeological part of the book was written by Andreas Lippert, the linguistic part by Joachim Matzinger), Andreas Lippert drops his opinion of strong influence from the Danubian Urnfield culture (after probably extensive look and not considering Veneti, Histri as proper Illyrian anymore) in support of Yugoslav archaeologists like Benac, Albanian archaeologists like Frano Prendi that Proto-Illyrians had little Urnfield influence. This is 100% correct, Frano Prendi was of that opinion, he said that Pannonian Urnfield or so called Danubian Urnfield influenced only Southern Albania during Bronze to Iron Age transition. Benac was the first to put this opinion forward though, which was supported by Frano Prendi.

Frano Prendi never even mentioned anything beyond Illyrian archaeological records, i didn't quote him saying that Illyrians and Albanians don't have continuity, Muzafer Korkutaj neither, Korkutaj mentioned the Kanellure influence on Late Bronze Age Albania, probably Kanellure was another name for Pannonian Urnfield which Frano Prendi already mentioned, but it had limited effect only on Southern Albania.

Matziger mund të jetë gjithçka por jo një studiues serioz. Ai pa filluar nga studimi deklaroi se shqiptarët nuk kanë lidhje me ilirët. Lexoje më poshtë se çfarë ka thënë dhe në shoqërinë e kujt është:

Kështu Matzinger kundërshton tezën e Çabejt: “Natyrisht që Çabej kishte tjetër mendim, por sipas hulumtimeve të mia, argumentimi im themelor është se sistemi fonologjik i proto-shqipes dhe i sistemi i ilirishtes janë dy sisteme të ndryshme që nuk pajtohen njëri me tjetrin. Kemi një ndryshim, një diferencë, janë periudha gjuhësore, të cilat duhen interpretuar si dy gjuhë të ndryshme. Kjo është baza ime themelore.”

Çështja e politizimit të shkencave historike e studimeve në gjuhësi, etnografi, letërsi ishte një kryefjalë e takimit të së martës. Subjektivizmi dhe folklorizmi si tipare që e shmangin nga fokusi i kërkimit shkencor objektin e studimit, kanë krijuar një traditë e farkuar nën sistemin e kaluar. Këtë pohuan autorët e pranishëm, Nathalie Clayer, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Oliver Jens Schmitt dhe moderatori i takimit publicisti Fatos Lubonja. Shkas u bë prezantimi në Fakultetin e Historisë e Filologjisë i librit “Historia e Shqiptarëve. Gjendja dhe perspektiva e studimit” (Botimet Përpjekja, 2012). Në këtë botim janë përfshirë ligjërata e Joachim Matzinger “Shqiptarët si pasardhës të ilirëve nga këndvështrimi i gjuhësisë historike” dhe një tjetër nga kolegu i tij i Universitetit të Vjenës, Stefan Schumacher, me titull “Marrëdhëniet e huazimeve mes protoshqipes dhe latinishtes apo rumanishtes ballkanike”.

Prandaj mos i ngatërro këta emra të respektuar arkeologësh shqiptarë me pisllëqet tuaja. Kaq!

 

[Hawk]

Matziger mund të jetë gjithçka por jo një studiues serioz. Ai pa filluar nga studimi deklaroi se shqiptarët nuk kanë lidhje me ilirët. Lexoje më poshtë se çfarë ka thënë dhe në shoqërinë e kujt është:



Prandaj mos i ngatërro këta emra të respektuar arkeologësh shqiptarë me pisllëqet tuaja. Kaq!

Mos kerce tash tjeterkund, me akuzove se po i kerqperdori citimet, dhe citova ne perpikshmeri kontekstin me cka dole gabim.

Fatos Lubonja, edhe nje tjeter ja harrova emrin qe jane te fiksum me Otomanet dhe Serbet, Fahri Xharra me Pellazget gjithe boten, nje tjeter nga Kosova, njefar Gashi qe pretendon qe ka dekodu stemen e Lemnosit me gjuhen Shqipe-Pellazge, Elena Kocaqi me Pellazget gjithandej, disa pseudo-studjues Serb qe her dalin ne Molldavi here ne Kavkaz, kto jane sharlatane.

Cabej, Prendi, Korkutaj kto kane kriju teori ne baze te metodave shkencore. Dhe normal qe i citoj kurdo qe ka nevoj.

Matzinger e ka pohu nje teori linguistike, jo gjenetike, tash, pse e ka pohu ate, nuk e ka vulos ne deftere. As nuk e ben sharlatan ate, se eshte diqka qe nuk kam ndegju dhe has diku per te perveq disave kendej qe ja fusin si lopa bagles. Dhe ka shume persona qe pajtohen me Matzinger. Nese ka linguist qe nuk pajtohen, lirisht munden me kundershtu mendimin e tij, nuk ka kriju monopol me teorine e tij. Edhe une jam i mendimit se e verteta qendron diku ne mes.

 

[Johane Derite]

Ai pa filluar nga studimi deklaroi se shqiptarët nuk kanë lidhje me ilirë

Shume e qarte:

Matinzger: sipas hulumtimeve të mia, argumentimi im themelor është se sistemi fonologjik i proto-shqipes dhe i sistemi i ilirishtes janë dy sisteme të ndryshme që nuk pajtohen njëri me tjetrin. Kemi një ndryshim, një diferencë, janë periudha gjuhësore, të cilat duhen interpretuar si dy gjuhë të ndryshme. Kjo është baza ime themelore.”

 

[Dushman]

I am indeed Z5017>Z17107>BY4461, that same branch as Unikkatil (another coincidence) and Trojet knows this very well because my results were posted on their project as well as Rrenjet. I have no reason to lie about it. If I wanted to lie I'd choose J2b2 since it appears it was dominant among early Illyrians.

Yes, I confirm.

I don’t know who you’re trying to manipulate after already receiving an answer from Trojet that I am E-V13. I got my results and joined the Albanian group on Yseq. Of course, you knew that and you still wrote it. Shows your character.

Secondly, as your character is already obvious, you try to put me against South Albanians. Big fail! I, together with all the other Albanians here, disagreeing with 1 single Albanian member from Berat who claims that I2a-Din is Illyrian-Bastarnae superior first European haplogroup with blonde hair and blue eyes and how people from Berat are so tall compared to other Albanians. We all here agree that I2a is not Illyrian and we don’t deny a Migration Period expansion; we all agree that I2a doesn’t make you tall, blonde with blue eyes, and I also intervened on the misinformation that Berat, on the contrary, has one of the shortest people in Albania and that is a fact.

Did you really believe that you were again going to manipulate other members into believing I’m the bad guy when my opposition is delirious with Nordicist I2a tall blonde dreams? Again, shows your character.

Then it was me vs some of you Kosovar Trojans who said that there are Southern Albanians like Labs who are taller than even most Ghegs and you disagreed. So who’s hating on Southern Albanians?

Then you accuse me of being Dema.

You, Derite, and Dema have so much in common, starting from being anti-Illyrian, Kosovars, and Muslim. Dema openly insulted Illyrians as stupid barbarian pirates as opposed to his smart Phoenician adventurer ancestor who colonized the Mediterranean.

I’m not a Kosovar, I’m North Western Albanian, of fully Catholic heritage, and I stand with all my Albanian brothers from Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo (except you with Trojan identity crisis), North Macedonia, and Greece for my Albanian culture and I’m trying my best to contribute with as much as I can as an amateur, even collecting autosomal samples from all the Albanian regions for Bruzmi and other members to create PCAs and whatnot for everyone to see, read, and get entertained in the process.

What is your contribution? Dardanian separatism, exclusivity on Albanian language, gifting Central and Southern Albania to Greeks before you superior non Romanized Dardanians came down to colonize us and give us your language. Your dude Derite is the owner of Albanian History on Twitter constantly pushing his separatist ideas using MY COUNTRY’S name.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Mos kerce tash tjeterkund, me akuzove se po i kerqperdori citimet, dhe citova ne perpikshmeri kontekstin me cka dole gabim.

Fatos Lubonja, edhe nje tjeter ja harrova emrin qe jane te fiksum me Otomanet dhe Serbet, Fahri Xharra me Pellazget gjithe boten, nje tjeter nga Kosova, njefar Gashi qe pretendon qe ka dekodu stemen e Lemnosit me gjuhen Shqipe-Pellazge, Elena Kocaqi me Pellazget gjithandej, disa pseudo-studjues Serb qe her dalin ne Molldavi here ne Kavkaz, kto jane sharlatane.

Cabej, Prendi, Korkutaj kto kane kriju teori ne baze te metodave shkencore. Dhe normal qe i citoj kurdo qe ka nevoj.

Matzinger e ka pohu nje teori linguistike, jo gjenetike, tash, pse e ka pohu ate, nuk e ka vulos ne deftere. As nuk e ben sharlatan ate, se eshte diqka qe nuk kam ndegju dhe has diku per te perveq disave kendej qe ja fusin si lopa bagles. Dhe ka shume persona qe pajtohen me Matzinger. Nese ka linguist qe nuk pajtohen, lirisht munden me kundershtu mendimin e tij, nuk ka kriju monopol me teorine e tij. Edhe une jam i mendimit se e verteta qendron diku ne mes.

Je ti që po kërcen degë më degë dhe vazhdon të sjellësh emra sharlatanësh që nuk kanë asnjë lidhje me çfarë po flasim. Po ta përsëris. Mos përdor emra studiuesish të respektuar shqiptarë si mburojë për sharlatanë të kalibrit të Mazinger. Ai grup personash ku bën pjesë edhe Matziger janë të gjithë zogjtë e sorrës të Open Society dhe tani edhe Open Ballkan. Këta janë terroristë mediatikë që përgatisin terrenin për shfarrosjen e kombeve.

 

[Hawk]

The posts on that thread were deleted apparently, but i am 100% sure you insulted Southern Albanians and their family members, their daughters. There are other Albanians here who saw your posts.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Shume e qarte:
Matinzger: sipas hulumtimeve të mia, argumentimi im themelor është se sistemi fonologjik i proto-shqipes dhe i sistemi i ilirishtes janë dy sisteme të ndryshme që nuk pajtohen njëri me tjetrin. Kemi një ndryshim, një diferencë, janë periudha gjuhësore, të cilat duhen interpretuar si dy gjuhë të ndryshme. Kjo është baza ime themelore.”

Kur ke dëshirë ti bëhesh i dobishëm. Me ndihmën tënde po ja shpjegoj këtij Hawk se Korkuti dhe Matziger janë dy pole krejt të kundërta:

Professor Muzaffer Korkuti recalls his encounter with N.G.L Hammond where he discussed precisely how he had misunderstood Epirus Tumuli:

In 1970, during the II Congress of Southeast European Studies in Athens I presented a study on “Illyrian-Aegean cultural connections.” I was 34 years old then, but I had quite an abundant material from discoveries at tumuli at Pazhok, Vajze, Vodina and other Albanian locations which revealed that the tumuli burial at Pazhok and Vajze was practiced not only during the Bronze Age 2,000 years before, but the practice continued during the Iron Age, indicating a continuous practice of the ritual, by the same population. The same burial grounds would not be used by people of different culture or area. Thus, I indicated that based on this evidence, it would be reasonable to conclude, that the same population that inhabited the area during the Iron Age, had inhabited the area previously, that is during the Bronze Age. (wb-This population came to be identified as Illyrian) Use of this parameter identify the population associated with this ritual at this historical period would be most appropriate.


Professor N.Hammondi, a British scholar, had expressed the view that the buried people at Pazhok tumuli, belonging to the Middle Bronze period, 1,600 years before Christ, were Greek-speaking. He had been relying on insufficient data. I contradicted this speculative view, and at the Congress I indicated that the manner of the burial in these late Bronze Age tumuli had not changed and this ritual was practiced by people of the same cultural (or ethnicity), and the Illyrians during the Middle Bronze Age did not speak Greek. If there had been Greek writing in the weapons, these weapons had been bought through trade relations by tribal chieftains, while ceramic wares were of domestic production. The latter were their home wares, Illyrian products. Thus, I indicated that this population was not Greek-speaking, but an indigenous population who had its own language.

Për mua ti mbetesh një rast enigmatik. I vetmi sqarim logjik që mund të bëj për rastin tënd është se truri njerëzor ka ca zona të errëta dhe vetëm kështu mund të sqarohet se përse e humbet veten tënde me gjëra të tilla që janë thjeshtë pseudoshkencë.

 

[Hawk]

Kur ke dëshirë ti bëhesh i dobishëm. Me ndihmën tënde po ja shpjegoj këtij Hawk se Korkuti dhe Matziger janë dy pole krejt të kundërta:

Askund ne postin tim nuk kam perzier mendime ndermjet Korkutit dhe Matzingerit, kjo eshte nje tentative e ytja. Une kam thene qe Andreas Lippert ka citu si baze Prendin, Benac, Gavranovic dhe Korkutin se Proto-Iliret kane pas ndikim te vogel te Urnfieldit. Korkuti ka qene arkeolog e jo linguist.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Mendoj se u shpreha shumë qartë në atë që thashë.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

For the people show are interested about the opinion of Professor Korkuti, the link below has also a section in English language.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

The rule of 20 posts.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

https://mkorkuti.tripod.com/index.html