Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Olti27]

is your icon stating that skandenberg is romanian ?................you have the romanian flag

Arm wrestling in romanian and hungarian is called skanderbeg / szkander. The icon is of the Romanian arm wrestling Federation. Skanderbeg must have had a really strong arm for his name to have entered the vocabulary of 2 big nations. In the albanian movie about him there is a scene were Skanderbeg arm wrestles others in order to choose his warriors.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

You took 2 irrelevant samples and grouped together in order to create something which fit your purpose, but you object using the samples from Albania and Montenegro. It's absurd to even argue that samples from the Roman/pre-Slavic Balkans from historical Albanian regions shouldn't be used in a model. Do you even read what other people write before replying to them?

What irrelevant samples? Because you don't like the results? The model is consistent with the IA model, both work for the same reason, the exact same way.

You can use the Alb samples, including the phony mdv IA profile that is snuck in there in there Mr. "Contemporaneous". You can't call it Montenegro as the samples are entirely from Albania, but you and your boy did, because you have no integrity. Than you proceed to include all of Roman Croatia. The Serb samples from the Croatian border, all based on fictional Communist historical fantasies. This is a incoherent model. On top of it, two (out of the three) of the Alb mdv profiles are Thracian and Greek based, or a mixture of both, the narrative is entirely incoherent, they are not local Illyrian survivors. Incoherent model with incoherent interpretations.

You're not "startling" anyone. I literally showed that your model performs the same way for many southern Europeans and the fake proxy you created works as a proxy for Anatolian Farmer ancestry. How hard can it be for you to understand that the proxy you created by merging two samples works as an ANF proxy?

Bullox, here stare at the map, you can find plenty of southern Croatian profiles, that plot further south, but all useless. That's loser talk to cope with a failing model that will simply not work and refuses to work.

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 1.1656% / 0.01165615
44.4 Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376
33.0 Rome_Imperial
12.4 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
4.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
4.4 Slav_MA
1.4 Sargat_IA

Target: Greek_Apulia
Distance: 1.2361% / 0.01236082
32.0 Rome_Imperial
31.0 Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376
19.4 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
9.2 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
6.8 Slav_MA
1.6 Sargat_IA

Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 1.0311% / 0.01031055
38.2 Hungary_I18185_&_Hungary_SZOD376
37.8 Rome_Imperial
14.0 Slav_MA
9.0 Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early
1.0 Sargat_IA

I love it, I've reduced you and your team to this. You did the same for the IA model, than I backed into a Greek IA average which took care of your Kos and Mani example. We don't have any early AD samples from Greece yet, when we do, the same will happen, all your excuses will be smashed like the previous ones.

But is 1.0311% the same as 0.66%? I achieved that type of fit with less samples than your model. How are you going to argue when you can't get past elementary math?

Now I'll turn the tables. This is your model applied to the rest of the Balkans:

Everyone is Illyrian, LOL. The best part is the fit, it works better than it does on the Albanian average, and the sample sizes are smaller, yet the fit is better. Is this comedy? This is what you call a "historical" model. This is what your god, Brumi can come up with, his masterpiece.

Your model isn't "outperforming" the model I posted. You think that reducing slightly the distance provides a better model. Well, it doesn't. A model with 1.0 compared to a model with 1.2 distance isn't better. When your model is ahistorical, performs in the same way for many populations, produces nonsensical results and can't be used to infer any information then the model with the slightly higher distance is much better. You insist on something which makes no sense by itself. You're trying to argue that that somehow Albanians don't have any autosomal ancestry from the area in/around Albania despite the fact Y-DNA research has shown that in the same single settlement 1/3 of total Albanian Y-DNA lineages have been found.

That's loser talk, my model VASTLY outperforms yours. We are not talking about 0.1 difference, but 0.6, a fit 50% of yours. You went from comparing Greeks, to contemporaneous, and now yielding to defeat but rationalizing it, you know defeat is not really a defeat, Paleo is just over-pointing his opponents. LMAO

 

[blevins13]

Why cannot we just cope with reality Albanians might be descended from more than 1 Paleo-Balkan people? What's wrong with Thracians?

The Thracians like Odrysians were far more richer and more powerful than any Illyrian. Imagine the rich and powerful Odrysians were struggling of putting under their command the highlander Thracians, their kings were being killed by them on their attempts. I am pretty sure a lot of Thracians were vanquished already by Justinian plague, the Illyrians as well, but it wasn't as prominent as in Thrace which was closer to Constantinople.

Linguistically is not possible, but let’s elaborate, a Thracian mountain Tribe , that survived where, and moved when into the Albanians Alps? Do he have a timeframe, do we have a place of Origin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Excine]

What irrelevant samples? Because you don't like the results? The model is consistent with the IA model, both work for the same reason, the exact same way.

You're combining samples from early medieval Hungary with samples from Naissus and you're getting the same result for most southern Europeans from Italy and the Balkans. If a model produces the same thing for everyone with nonsensical references then it's pointless.

You can use the Alb samples, including the phony mdv IA profile that is snuck in there in there Mr. "Contemporaneous".

If you don't like the fact that medieval Albanian samples which have been radiocarbon dated as part of multiyear scientific study by the Reich Harvard Lab don't fit in your narrative, then you've got the problem not the samples 'cause they're fine

But is 1.0311% the same as 0.66%? I achieved that type of fit with less samples than your model.

Your models with 0.8 and 1.0 fit are useless because they produce the same result for wildly different peoples

You can replace EST_BA in my model as I originally said with Byz3 and Early_Slav and you'll get the higher end of Slavic ancestry (for Albanians it's circa 15%)

Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.4538% / 0.01453833
48.6 Slavic
25.2 Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro
22.4 Pre-Slavic_Byzantine_Trogir_Croatia
3.8 Roman_Northern_Balkans_local

For Albanians the fit remains the same and for others from the Balkans it produces a perfectly reasonable result. All fits on G25 under a certain point are just overfitting and it's pointless to argue that a model is better than another model with such high fits. The question is does a model make sense historically, geographically and can the sources which are used provide some or any information? Your models are all over the place, provide weird results for everyone and don't fit what is already known about aDNA.

PS Yes, there is Albanian or Albanian-like admixture all over the Balkans to varying degrees. Get over it.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

You're combining samples from early medieval Hungary with samples from Naissus and you're getting the same result for most southern Europeans from Italy and the Balkans. If a model produces the same thing for everyone with nonsensical references then it's pointless.

I am combining Thracian profiles from Roman and early medieval, profiles that are the same, not assumed to be the same, I don't make nonsense assumptions. The results are not the same, you can't figure out basic math, and can't tell apart fit distances.

If you don't like the fact that medieval Albanian samples which have been radiocarbon dated as part of multiyear scientific study by the Reich Harvard Lab don't fit in your narrative, then you've got the problem not the samples 'cause they're fine

Keep quoting the alleged radiocarbon like a Bible verse. This is all you got, no real evidence, you have to rely on forgery and wild assumptions.

Your models with 0.8 and 1.0 fit are useless because they produce the same result for wildly different peoples

They do not, prove they perform with the same fit or better. This is actually what "your" model does with the Romanians and everyone else in the Balkans, it makes everyone Illyrian with a better fit. Junk model made from incompetent fools.

You can replace EST_BA in my model as I originally said with Byz3 and Early_Slav and you'll get the higher end of Slavic ancestry (for Albanians it's circa 15%)

Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.4538% / 0.01453833
48.6 Slavic
25.2 Pre-Slavic_Albania-Montenegro
22.4 Pre-Slavic_Byzantine_Trogir_Croatia
3.8 Roman_Northern_Balkans_local

Romanians are Illyrians, good point.

For Albanians the fit remains the same and for others from the Balkans it produces a perfectly reasonable result. All fits on G25 under a certain point are just overfitting and it's pointless to argue that a model is better than another model with such high fits. The question is does a model make sense historically, geographically and can the sources which are used provide some or any information? Your models are all over the place, provide weird results for everyone and don't fit what is already known about aDNA.

PS Yes, there is Albanian or Albanian-like admixture all over the Balkans to varying degrees. Get over it.

There is no overfit, you're coping with being a loser. Your teams(who knows how many of "yous" worked together to produce this model/disaster) model does not work, you got vastly outperformed by one individual.

This is a reasonable historical model, with coherent results.

What would happen if I introduce Brumi's Alb average to the source?

0.3603% fit, what do you think, is the calc malfunctioning? Recognizing an Alb average as Alb is over fitting? Let's be real here, you're a loser.

The question is does a model make sense historically, geographically and can the sources which are used provide some or any information?

Read the thread from the beginning, the linguistic evidence has been made and proven. Albanian was not on the coast. Toponyms do not show continuity with Albanian phonetic laws. The model is in line with historical evidence. It is at odds with communist propaganda and that's a good thing, it shows the model is the right track.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Exine pooped his pants and completely ignored my last model which I made using less Balkan AD sources than him.

SZOD376_(Commoner)_STR_300_&_SRB_Viminacium_R6756:Thracian_profile_avg,0.124067,0.166885333333333,0.00439966666666667,-0.050711,0.0286203333333333,-0.0167336666666667,0.00454333333333333,0.004769,0.007158,0.0368723333333333,0.00654966666666667,0.00319733333333333,-0.0109016666666667,-0.00275266666666667,-0.025651,-0.013701,0.00117333333333333,0.00122466666666667,0.00507,-0.0122976666666667,-0.009067,0.008697,0.00180766666666667,0.00690833333333333,-0.00215533333333333
Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):I16750,0.1161,0.159438,0.004148,-0.046835,0.022158,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.001846,0.004295,0.040639,-0.004222,0.009442,-0.015907,0.010597,-0.020901,0.004375,0.0339,0.007475,0.008045,-0.013632,-0.015847,0.000618,0.001849,0.005904,-0.011496
Croatia_Velic:R3685___AD_500___Coverage_56.14%_G2a2b-L497,0.117238,0.141159,-0.001508,-0.030039,0.015387,-0.016733,-0.00376,-0.006461,-0.00225,0.020228,-0.00065,0.003297,-0.017096,-0.001789,-0.010586,0.007558,0.012386,-0.003294,0.001634,-0.004002,-0.004367,-0.001484,-0.001849,0.002771,-0.000359
POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395
Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
Rome_Imperial:MENA,0.083887615,0.14438296,-0.05539909,-0.08351165,-0.014875675,-0.02808784,-0.00420361,-0.00699206,0.00473994,0.00753321,0.00485756,-0.0063994,0.01110501,-0.000839415,-0.00692851,0.007229525,0.00264355,0.00003644,0.00138889,0.00176961,0.0012493,0.00448696,-0.00141116,-0.000301325,-0.00209115

How are you my son, 0.665% my boy. Where is father Brumi to protect his boy.....his son?

 

[eupator]

I really don't understand this ruckus since the southern arc e-v13s.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I really don't understand this ruckus since the southern arc e-v13s.

Me neither mate. Especially considering the ones making the most ruckus here are not even e-v13. I suspect boredom and mental health problems might have something to do with it. Good thing I am not a mod though, else this thread might have been nuked 100 pages ago.

 

[mount123]

The Thracians were weak. They didn't manage to conserve neither their language nor their name. Albanian is not a mixed language so there is no point in claiming the legacy of different peoples groups (even though there might be some genetic influence) unless you want to argue that there is a linguistic continuum of thrack-illyrian. Illyrians were pretty awesome judging by how hard our neighbors are trying to diconect albanians from them.

Illyrians were very homogenous in their patrilineage (mainly J2b-L283) and auDNA and cannot be equated with Albanians. Albanians are very heterogenous in their paternal lines and cannot be compared to other modern groups let's say Germans (mainly R1b-U106, I-M253) or Italians (mainly R1b-U152) in this regard. No one is trying to disconnect their partial survival in Albanians on the contrary it is rather being attested via archaeogenetic records.

Linguistics and genetics are two different things in this case. I have no horse in this race but I think Albanian as a language is rather derived from MBA South Central Balkan groups (e.g. Dardanians, Paeonian Ulanci type). Illyrian in its lexical structure appears rather different from Albanian and most of its survival in place names etc. is centered in North Albania (and other enclaves) which matches the DNA picture in that region and also cannot be explained by albanophone sound changes.

 

[torzio]

Illyrians were very homogenous in their patrilineage (mainly J2b-L283) and auDNA and cannot be equated with Albanians. Albanians are very heterogenous in their paternal lines and cannot be compared to other modern groups let's say Germans (mainly R1b-U106, I-M253) or Italians (mainly R1b-U152) in this regard. No one is trying to disconnect their partial survival in Albanians on the contrary it is rather being attested via archaeogenetic records.

Linguistics and genetics are two different things in this case. I have no horse in this race but I think Albanian as a language is rather derived from MBA South Central Balkan groups (e.g. Dardanians, Paeonian Ulanci type). Illyrian in its lexical structure appears rather different from Albanian and most of its survival in place names etc. is centered in North Albania (and other enclaves) which matches the DNA picture in that region and also cannot be explained by albanophone sound changes.

the reason no Illyrian language has been found is because there is No Illyrian Language , all the "Illyrian" tribes spoke a different language ............we only have Illyrian personnel names ranging from Noricum Austria down to northern Albania

the only ancient language we have found is Liburnian , which looks a bit like ancient italian and Messapic which is stated a Illyrian , but linguists will not confirm it ...........it might be a local Italic language from Salento peninsula ( heel of Italy ) as it appears no where else

 

[mount123]

the reason no Illyrian language has been found is because there is No Illyrian Language , all the "Illyrian" tribes spoke a different language ............we only have Illyrian personnel names ranging from Noricum Austria down to northern Albania
the only ancient language we have found is Liburnian , which looks a bit like ancient italian and Messapic which is stated a Illyrian , but linguists will not confirm it ...........it might be a local Italic language from Salento peninsula ( heel of Italy ) as it appears no where else

There clearly is an Illyrian ethnos and language. The Illyrian toponyms which cannot be explained via albanophone sound changes I hinted at are located in Albanian inhabited areas not "Liburnia".

 

[Excine]

P-R's model is so pathetic that he picked single samples 3 different locations in wildly different contexts, added them together and thinks that he can use them as a "model". Models aren't a game where we just pick samples at random and try to find which ones work best to lower the distance of the model. It's a textbook definition of overfitting and meaningless use of samples and once more I didn't get a single reply to any points I raised.

@Archetype Yes, it's pointless to argue with the person whose only purpose around here is to cause disruption and further his nationalist agenda.

 

[Hawk]

Linguistically is not possible, but let’s elaborate, a Thracian mountain Tribe , that survived where, and moved when into the Albanians Alps? Do he have a timeframe, do we have a place of Origin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll answer your question if you can explain the widespread E-V13 presence among Albanians.

Then, we have the Pannonian-Illyrian issue. What was their true affinity knowing they differed on material culture from Southern Illyrians something aknowledged by Albanian archaeologists as well.

 

[Okoi]

Illyrians were very homogenous in their patrilineage (mainly J2b-L283) and auDNA and cannot be equated with Albanians. Albanians are very heterogenous in their paternal lines and cannot be compared to other modern groups let's say Germans (mainly R1b-U106, I-M253) or Italians (mainly R1b-U152) in this regard. No one is trying to disconnect their partial survival in Albanians on the contrary it is rather being attested via archaeogenetic records.

Linguistics and genetics are two different things in this case. I have no horse in this race but I think Albanian as a language is rather derived from MBA South Central Balkan groups (e.g. Dardanians, Paeonian Ulanci type). Illyrian in its lexical structure appears rather different from Albanian and most of its survival in place names etc. is centered in North Albania (and other enclaves) which matches the DNA picture in that region and also cannot be explained by albanophone sound changes.

These are some of your posts in another thread:

Also, J2b-L283 in antiquity does not have anything to do with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians but everything with Illyrians as we've seen.

They are Illyrian wether you like it or not and Proto-Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians. You have a vibrant imagination, I'll give you that.

I am not a Muslim. You surely are not a troll account

Thanks for the compliment tallava dancing fanatasy wannabe Illyrian descended person.

From this thread: eupedia.com/forum/threads/42499-Ancient-balkan-states-Y-DNA?p=646487&viewfull=1#post646487


I can dig up some more posts.

 

[Okoi]

............

 

[PaleoRevenge]

P-R's model is so pathetic that he picked single samples 3 different locations in wildly different contexts, added them together and thinks that he can use them as a "model". Models aren't a game where we just pick samples at random and try to find which ones work best to lower the distance of the model. It's a textbook definition of overfitting and meaningless use of samples and once more I didn't get a single reply to any points I raised.

@Archetype Yes, it's pointless to argue with the person whose only purpose around here is to cause disruption and further his nationalist agenda.

They are not 3 different locations, they are 3 Hungarian and one Serb(near Belgrade-same region as Hungary), and one Dalmatian, two locations, vs you four(Montenegro, Albania, Dalmatia, Slavonia) primary locations you used. The Hungarian and Serb sample are Thracian derived, if you disagree, bring it up with Michalidis at Anthrogenica, I'd love to see you and Brumi argue against it. I won't intervene, I'll just enjoy the entertainment.

There is no overfit, Your model lacks precision. Visually a child can see it. You want to lower the threshold so a 3rd world tier model gets accepted as legit.

You can also quote me proposing to Maciamo to reorganize the ancient DNA samples forum sections into sub categories: Paelo, Neolithic, BA, IA. Which is what he did and thanked me, in that aspect this forums template has a better design than Anthro. You can point out how a person who knows how to organize data, excel in models and is precise cannot be Albanian, because I have standards.

 

[Okoi]

I really don't understand this ruckus since the southern arc e-v13s.

The ruckus was made way before during the Viminacium Roman paper which was packed with E-V13, but we have one troll who wants to model Albanians with some Thracians from Bulgaria since the Southern Arc E-V13s as if supposedly the Albanian E-V13 came from there when we see R1a-Z93 there too. Now this troll is most likely not E-V13 himself. Then we got these Serbs on other foras. Then we got another troll by the name of mount123 who claims to be Albanian and J2b2-L283 , digging up this guys posting history and you will find some quite interesting content.

Then we got two other E-V13s, the OP and some other dude here, that have been trying to identify proto-Albanians with some kind of E-V13 since years ago but it is something that is not even substantial at this point. It is nothing but wishful thinking.

Linguistically is not possible, but let’s elaborate, a Thracian mountain Tribe , that survived where, and moved when into the Albanians Alps? Do he have a timeframe, do we have a place of Origin?


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There is nothing that links Albanian to Thracian neither linguistically nor archaeologically. It's a language that does not even match Thracian. Nothing suggests Albanians came from any kind of transition zone. These people seem to love to take things out of context. E-V13 in general is the most common pre-Slavic marker among Balkan Slavs including in Bosnia:

Human Y-chromosomal haplogroups are an important tool used in population genetics and forensic genetics. A conventional method used for Y haplogroup assignment is based on a set of Y-SNP markers deployed, which exploits the low mutation rate nature of these markers. Y chromosome haplogroups can be successfully predicted from Y-STR markers using different software packages, and this method gained much attention recently due to its labor-, time- and cost-effectiveness. The present study was based on the analysis of a total of 480 adult male buccal swab samples collected from different regions of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Y haplogroup prediction was performed using Whit Athey's Haplogroup Predictor, based on haplotype data on 23 Y-STR markers contained within the PowerPlex® Y23 kit. The results revealed the existence of 14 different haplogroups, with I2a, R1a and E1b1b being the most prevalent with frequencies of 43.13%, 14.79% and 14.58%, respectively. Compared to the previously published studies on Bosnian-Herzegovinian population based on Y-SNP and Y-STR data, this study represents an upgrade of molecular genetic data with a significantly larger number of samples, thus offering more accurate results and higher probability of detecting rare haplogroups.


frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2021.671467/full



None of these areas have any significant J2b2-L283 or R1b-Z2103 like Albanians .

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I really don't understand this ruckus since the southern arc e-v13s.

E-V13 ratios, and Alb Thracian component in the G25s model are the same. That's the ruckus essentially. It's similar to your beef with your fellow neanderthals who argue modern Greeks are exactly ancient Greeks.

Here is my model.

Thracian AD profiles (in my model they are averaged):

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]SRB_Viminacium:R6756___AD_180,0.121791,0.168578,0.007165,-0.042313,0.028005,-0.013945,-0.000235,0.002308,0.00634,0.036447,0.007957,0.003897,-0.006987,-0.003991,-0.029994,-0.012198,0.005998,0.00076,0.007039,-0.014007,-0.011729,0.012242,-0.003574,0.008314,-0.001317[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Hungary_Medieval_Conqueror_Period_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):SZOD376_(Commoner),0.125205,0.166547,0.00792,-0.05491,0.033852,-0.020917,0.0047,0.001615,0.011453,0.044283,0.008282,0.006294,-0.016055,0.002064,-0.017915,-0.023601,-0.005346,0.007728,0.010936,-0.006128,-0.008235,0.004204,0.000616,0.009881,-0.000958[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):I18185,0.1161,0.162485,0.00264,-0.04845,0.023081,-0.024542,0.00611,-0.003231,0.008795,0.038634,0.006658,0.006294,-0.021407,0.00289,-0.022801,0.004641,0.007302,0.009375,0.009302,-0.002001,-0.011355,0.004699,-0.000616,-0.00253,0.001676[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Thracian-Dardanii profile:

Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):I16750,0.1161,0.159438,0.004148,-0.046835,0.022158,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.001846,0.004295,0.040639,-0.004222,0.009442,-0.015907,0.010597,-0.020901,0.004375,0.0339,0.007475,0.008045,-0.013632,-0.015847,0.000618,0.001849,0.005904,-0.011496

Romanized(ME and Latin mix) Illyrian proxy:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Croatia_Velic:R3685___AD_500_G2a2b-L497(Kruja-Komani_proxy),0.117238,0.141159,-0.001508,-0.030039,0.015387,-0.016733,-0.00376,-0.006461,-0.00225,0.020228,-0.00065,0.003297,-0.017096,-0.001789,-0.010586,0.007558,0.012386,-0.003294,0.001634,-0.004002,-0.004367,-0.001484,-0.001849,0.002771,-0.000359[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Gothic average made of the following:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10618___AD_150,0.138864,0.137096,0.072784,0.06137,0.041546,0.0251,0.003525,0.008538,0.007772,-0.005103,-0.002273,-0.004046,-0.011298,-0.010597,0.018458,0.024264,0.017471,0.003421,0.005279,0.014007,0.000624,0.003462,-0.003328,0.01699,-0.003832[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10625___AD_85,0.129758,0.125926,0.079572,0.07429,0.048317,0.019522,0.00846,0.01823,0.015748,-0.009476,-0.008282,0.004646,-0.004162,-0.003991,0.008686,0.016839,0.022556,0.003421,0.004399,0.006628,0.017594,0.011623,-0.002095,-0.001205,0.001078[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10626___AD_85,0.134311,0.127957,0.07203,0.055879,0.041854,0.023148,0.013161,0.017076,-0.000818,-0.004009,-0.004384,0.012139,-0.00996,0.001239,0.025108,0.000928,-0.008345,0.002407,-0.001634,0.006628,0.004118,0.00136,-0.006902,0.018436,-0.003712[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10631___AD_85,0.129758,0.131003,0.080327,0.063308,0.0397,0.023985,0.00188,0.005077,0.006749,-0.011299,-0.008769,0.001199,-0.006541,-0.013074,0.020358,0.005171,-0.00678,0.000507,-0.006536,0.005378,0.009608,-0.000866,-0.006039,0.008555,-0.001557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10633___AD_85,0.136588,0.129988,0.07731,0.070737,0.050471,0.024821,0.00423,0.011769,0.01309,-0.00492,-0.005034,0.005995,-0.009663,-0.010872,0.019272,0.025192,0.010822,-0.004054,-0.001508,0.009755,0.019341,0.001113,0.002095,0.002289,0.002036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10634___AD_85,0.133173,0.136081,0.071276,0.067507,0.041546,0.023706,0.003995,0.015461,0.005931,-0.008018,-0.009906,0.004046,-0.008028,-0.006055,0.021851,0.002652,-0.00665,-0.00228,0.004777,0.001,0.004243,-0.003462,0.00419,0.013255,-0.005389[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POL_Weklice:R10636___AD_85,0.133173,0.118817,0.080704,0.068153,0.038161,0.029005,0.003525,0.006692,0.003681,-0.011481,-0.008607,0.003297,-0.001933,-0.002202,0.016015,0.008353,-0.002608,0.001394,0.008045,0.001751,0.000374,0.003957,0.001479,0.025064,0.001197[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Slav MA(I copied this from Anthrogenica, unknown how it was made, it appears to be a single individual, you can probably use some other mdv Slav proxy in your model):

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Sargat, steppe Uralic made of the following avg:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:BGD002,0.100164,-0.00914,0.059962,0.05814,-0.040623,0.011992,0.011751,0.003461,-0.015953,-0.028611,0.013965,0.01154,0.00773,-0.014313,0.016422,-0.009546,-0.034943,-0.00038,-0.000628,-0.007504,-0.010981,0.005564,-0.007272,0.00494,0.001916[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:BIY003,0.094473,-0.078196,0.078818,0.064277,-0.05201,0.008646,-0.003525,0.004154,-0.012271,-0.026971,0.023222,0.001499,0.011744,-0.036608,-0.000136,0.004906,-0.018384,0.010895,-0.006913,-0.003502,-0.009109,0.009398,0.006532,-0.006145,0.003473[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:BIY007,0.092197,-0.055854,0.056568,0.052649,-0.040931,-0.007809,0.00611,0.013615,-0.018612,-0.030798,0.016401,-0.006894,0.007582,-0.03069,-0.002579,0.00411,-0.012778,-0.008742,-0.000377,-0.008379,-0.013102,-0.003339,0.006162,0.010122,0.001676[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:BIY008,0.095611,-0.087336,0.073539,0.07752,-0.052625,-0.001116,-0.00329,0.002538,-0.016566,-0.028429,0.016726,-0.01109,0.011893,-0.045691,-0.000136,0.003315,-0.003912,0.009375,-0.002263,-0.00075,-0.014474,0.011623,0.003204,0.000602,-0.002634[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:BIY009,0.091058,-0.083273,0.062979,0.062985,-0.04924,-0.002789,0.002115,0,-0.016157,-0.030251,0.01494,-0.002847,0.011298,-0.038259,0.004614,-0.001591,-0.004824,0.00076,0.005154,0.008004,-0.010232,-0.00136,0.000123,0.005302,-0.002395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:SHD001,0.095611,-0.06804,0.070899,0.056525,-0.048317,-0.003347,0.006815,0.004615,-0.010022,-0.025513,0.011854,-0.006444,0.011596,-0.031103,0.003529,-0.00358,-0.01004,-0.003801,-0.005782,-0.000375,-0.011979,0.009645,-0.002588,-0.00494,0.011496[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:SMV001,0.085367,-0.102568,0.067127,0.055556,-0.057857,-0.008925,0.00094,-0.000462,-0.018407,-0.031345,0.015265,-0.004046,0.001784,-0.041287,-0.001221,0.000663,0.003781,-0.00152,-0.001885,-0.003126,-0.001373,0.010387,0.004314,0.010724,-0.005987[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Sargat_IA:SMV002,0.093335,-0.063978,0.056568,0.059432,-0.05201,0.002789,0.003525,0.007615,-0.013294,-0.02934,0.00682,-0.001948,0.004906,-0.027937,0.00095,0.009944,0.003781,0.003167,-0.002137,-0.011005,-0.003494,0.008037,0.003944,0.003856,0.001796[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Turkic steppe avg made of the following:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_rest:JAG001,0.020488,-0.44988,0.107857,-0.043282,-0.092017,-0.057451,0.019036,0.032768,0.016771,0.011663,-0.024196,-0.0003,-0.002676,0.00812,0.000679,-0.005967,0.001695,-0.000253,0.003897,0.019134,-0.01697,-0.016693,-0.033523,-0.001807,0.003952[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_rest:SKT002,0.048944,-0.299581,0.068259,0.004522,-0.066782,-0.023985,0.012926,0.014999,-0.0045,-0.005649,-0.024196,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.001789,0.010722,0.004243,-0.007171,0.004181,0.004399,0.00988,-0.021337,-0.00272,-0.008011,0.001807,0.002994[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_rest:SKT004,0.03187,-0.412305,0.089,-0.025194,-0.085554,-0.053826,0.017156,0.021922,0.011453,0.011845,-0.020136,0.000749,-0.003865,0.003441,0.00475,0.000398,0.001956,0.00266,0.009553,0.019384,-0.024706,-0.015086,-0.017871,-0.007712,0.005269[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_rest:SKT005,0.068294,-0.155376,0.028284,0.044897,-0.046778,0.012271,0.00611,0.000923,-0.021475,-0.019864,-0.025495,-0.003147,0.008622,-0.016515,0.015336,-0.003713,-0.029988,0.001394,0.000126,-0.003877,0,-0.003957,0.007272,-0.00253,0.005868[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_rest:SKT006,0.059188,-0.294504,0.059962,-0.002261,-0.071706,-0.029005,0.015511,0.024922,-0.005318,0.000911,-0.03264,-0.005245,-0.00446,0.003028,0.012079,0.01074,0.002217,0.004814,0.001508,0.012006,-0.024956,-0.00915,-0.000123,-0.004217,0.010897[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_rest:SKT012,0.061464,-0.269115,0.067127,0.011305,-0.06155,-0.019801,0.00987,0.009,-0.003681,-0.005649,-0.023709,-0.004646,0.003568,-0.00867,0.011401,0.000928,0.001825,0.000507,-0.005279,-0.001626,-0.01984,-0.001607,-0.017994,0.006266,0.003832[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_SKT007:SKT007,0.045529,-0.349342,0.081835,0.01615,-0.076937,-0.029841,0.00094,-0.002769,-0.004909,-0.012028,-0.009906,0.002398,0.001784,-0.017478,0.008686,-0.002387,0.001565,0.003294,-0.004902,0.015007,-0.038931,0.002844,-0.008874,-0.008314,0.002275[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_west:AST001,0.088782,-0.094444,0.039598,0.052649,-0.047086,0.017012,0.00658,0.001615,-0.019839,-0.029522,-0.012342,-0.007793,-0.007879,-0.020231,0.017779,-0.010872,-0.035464,-0.003547,0.008547,-0.001126,-0.021587,0.005935,-0.003328,0.006386,-0.002395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_west:SKT001,0.08992,-0.066009,0.027907,0.063308,-0.054472,0.01757,0.003525,-0.001154,-0.037632,-0.038634,-0.008769,-0.001049,-0.000297,-0.022845,0.020765,0.017104,0.004824,-0.00114,-0.008296,-0.003377,-0.010856,0.003339,0.003574,0.017352,-0.003952[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_west:SKT003,0.088782,-0.06804,0.039598,0.052003,-0.048932,0.017849,0.00423,-0.004846,-0.017385,-0.034807,-0.010555,-0.004646,-0.002676,-0.014038,0.020494,-0.013524,-0.030119,0.007728,0.003897,-0.004627,-0.009234,0.000247,0.002958,0.001084,-0.001557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_west:SKT008,0.085367,-0.09546,0.047517,0.053295,-0.04924,-0.001952,0.003995,0.000462,-0.016566,-0.03098,-0.006658,-0.002398,0.000297,-0.0278,0.016829,0.013126,0.002738,-0.004307,0.003645,0.01113,-0.013601,0.002349,-0.003328,0.010122,-0.006107[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_west:SKT009,0.080814,-0.091398,0.037712,0.059755,-0.040315,0.016455,-0.00047,-0.000923,-0.029451,-0.029704,-0.013316,-0.00045,-0.004906,-0.023121,0.021851,0.005569,-0.016559,0.005574,-0.000377,-0.003752,-0.019341,0.004081,-0.002218,0.000964,-0.001317[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]MNG_Early_Xiongnu_west:SKT010,0.100164,-0.048745,0.030547,0.047158,-0.041238,0.012829,-0.005405,-0.011307,-0.026179,-0.032074,-0.004384,-0.006145,0.000892,-0.024359,0.020765,-0.003713,-0.020861,0.000127,0.002514,-0.002751,-0.020963,0.004946,-0.000246,0.007109,0.006945[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Rome Imperial ME avg made of the following:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Isola_Sacra:R11111___AD_201,0.086506,0.133034,-0.063733,-0.076874,-0.01908,-0.026774,-0.00094,-0.003231,-0.005522,0.008201,0.001461,-0.005095,-0.003271,-0.008945,-0.000814,0.026651,0.009257,0.004561,0.00176,-0.001126,0.001497,-0.00136,-0.002095,-0.001687,-0.001557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-12,0.087644,0.147252,-0.050534,-0.089148,-0.007694,-0.026774,-0.010105,-0.008538,0.015748,0.016037,0.007795,-0.013788,0.017096,-0.000138,-0.007465,-0.008486,0.007041,0.00038,-0.003268,0.00963,-0.001872,0.006801,-0.008997,0.006507,-0.011017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-2,0.083091,0.145221,-0.050911,-0.085595,-0.003077,-0.029841,-0.00564,-0.003923,0.008795,0.005285,-0.001461,-0.013488,0.007582,-0.009083,-0.011808,0.014585,0.002738,0.002914,0.000377,-0.001876,0.002371,0.005564,-0.000863,-0.002289,-0.007544[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-4,0.092197,0.141159,-0.055437,-0.081073,-0.020927,-0.031236,-0.00752,-0.006231,0.006545,0.021868,0.002923,-0.01154,0.014866,-0.000688,-0.016015,0.022673,0.010822,-0.000887,0.005656,0,0.003244,0.008408,0.002218,0.006627,-0.003952[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-7,0.092197,0.145221,-0.064865,-0.086564,-0.014772,-0.0251,-0.00658,-0.011769,-0.000409,0.005467,0.003248,-0.006744,0.012785,0.002752,-0.007057,0.008618,-0.009909,-0.005068,0.00729,0.001251,-0.001123,0.002844,-0.006655,-0.010363,0.001317[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o:3DT26,0.05122,0.156392,-0.050911,-0.102068,-0.003077,-0.044065,-0.012926,-0.007154,0.031906,0.000364,0.004384,-0.015436,0.027354,0.003853,-0.003936,0.005304,-0.000782,-0.001014,-0.005908,0.010505,0.003494,-0.003833,-0.001109,0.006868,-0.010059[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-11,0.086506,0.132019,-0.058454,-0.093347,-0.022466,-0.037092,-0.003055,0.002077,0.013294,0.016037,0.005846,-0.014987,0.030475,-0.002615,-0.015744,0.01843,0.013038,-0.01989,-0.000503,-0.002751,0.012228,0.005317,0.003081,-0.001446,0.000479[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-15,0.079676,0.136081,-0.057322,-0.095285,-0.020311,-0.034861,-0.007285,-0.009692,0.007772,0.009476,0.005521,-0.005995,0.010704,0.00234,-0.009229,0.009281,-0.001695,-0.001394,0.005531,0.002001,0.007612,0.00507,-0.003328,0.000602,0.003113[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-24,0.0774,0.149283,-0.054305,-0.087856,-0.017849,-0.033467,-0.005405,-0.00923,0.009613,-0.000364,0.014128,-0.01169,0.025867,-0.00289,-0.002579,0.020419,0.013299,-0.000633,-0.003771,0.006378,0.001996,0.005441,-0.007148,0.008676,-0.007305[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-33,0.085367,0.144205,-0.051666,-0.089148,-0.010771,-0.027052,-0.00141,-0.007384,0.008795,0.011481,0.012342,-0.007493,0.002676,-0.001101,-0.012622,0.019358,0.020731,0.002787,0.002137,0.000125,-0.001747,0.00643,-0.009367,0.005904,-0.005269[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic:SFI-20,0.068294,0.146236,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.010771,-0.027889,-0.002115,-0.013384,0.00225,0.004009,0.006658,-0.005545,0.019326,-0.001101,-0.002714,0.001061,-0.014473,0.004054,0.006662,0.003627,0.002496,0.008037,-0.002588,-0.010604,0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SRB_Viminacium:R6750___AD_148,0.085367,0.146236,-0.046009,-0.073644,-0.016311,-0.02761,0.00235,-0.000231,-0.006136,0.01385,-0.001786,0.000749,0.00892,0.004129,-0.005157,-0.009546,-0.010952,-0.00228,0.01169,-0.008004,-0.004991,0.003462,-0.002095,0.000723,-0.000718[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547,0.080814,0.151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550,0.084229,0.140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551,0.100164,0.142174,-0.058454,-0.066861,-0.023081,-0.013387,0.00141,0.002308,-0.026793,0.000729,0.009094,0.003897,-0.015163,0.007432,0.000679,-0.02254,-0.009779,0.002154,0.002011,0.012131,0.007237,0.008408,-0.000739,-0.004699,0.00479[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Feel free to run it through your script and give us your verdict.

 

[Okoi]

I'll answer your question if you can explain the widespread E-V13 presence among Albanians.

Then, we have the Pannonian-Illyrian issue. What was their true affinity knowing they differed on material culture from Southern Illyrians something aknowledged by Albanian archaeologists as well.

Founder effect and assimilation. Plenty of foreigners that have been assimilated into Albanians including Vlachs. In Kosovo it comes especially from a few tribes Berisha-Sopi. Same thing that happened among Balkan Slavs where we see E-V13 as the highest pre-Slavic Y-DNA in Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc. and that have insigificant amount of J2b2-L283 or R1b-Z2103. Why don't you explain that part. Or explain genetic studies on Montenigrins, Serbs, Bosniaks, etc Why also don't you explain the high R1b and J2b2 in Albanians or the toponyms and place names en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi ,

Or how for example Albanian does not match Thracian ? We don't even have E-V13 from Medieval Albania or Post Medieval Albania. A lot of it is founder effect from the Ottoman period too. But one could argue that for any Y-DNA in general but we got R1b and J2b2-L283 since the Iron Age in Albania. It is enough evidence for me that Albanians originated there.

Eastern Serbia such as Viminacium and Timacum Minus was filled with E-V13 during Roman period too. Why on earth would someone specifically single out E-V13 as a proto-Albanian marker without explaining some of these things. Then this other guy claims non-EV13 are making the most ruckus, I'd say it's mixed, it has nothing to do with what Y-DNA people carry.

 

[Okoi]

Why would Albanian E-V13 of come from Bulgaria or Central Balkans supposedly without explaining the E-V13 in Balkan Slavs and their insigificant J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 , makes absolutely no sense. We don't even have E-V13 in Macedonia Iron Age but we do in Eastern Serbia from the Roman period. Why is it so hard to accept E-V13 is a lineage that got assimilated into Albanians/Illyrians ?