Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

This forthcoming paper disproves PaleoRevenge's assertion that Balto-Slavic and Albanian share the greatest number of isoglosses. With regard to Joseph and Hyllested; However, the authors argue that Albanian and Greek are the Indo-European languages closest to each other, not Balto-Slavic, so there goes that.

Forthcoming. Like the forthcoming E-V13 among Illyrians at rates 10% or under.

I was very careful to say Baltic not Balto-Slavic. Proto-Albanoid was in contact with Balts, this hints north of the Carpathians were not any Slavs at least until 1,200 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words
Reconstructed Dacian has the most isoglosses with Baltic, followed by Albanian. These Albanian words have a clear linear connection, not like Illyrian sica to Albanian thika, or sibina to thuper, which are clearly imported words(from Illyrian contact), and have a acquired a foreign pronunciation in the Proto-Albanian tongue.

 

[Hawk]

There's 0 difference from Matzinger's work in 2018 and the book Die Illyrer. Matzinger's argument is that Proto-Albanian was already an existing language in the 8th century BC thus it can't be a "modern continuation of Illyrian of Illyrii Proprie Dicti" since for Matzinger Proto-Albanian was coterminous with the language of the Illyrii proprie dicti and Messapic. For Matzinger they are separate languages by that time "however, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words". (Matzinger 2018) which is a position held by Hamp:

That's not true, he clearly states and groups language families, he groups Illyrian in East Alpine Block OAB language group and Albanian, Greek and Thracian in Balkanic IE not hinting in any inter-relationship between Balkanic IE. We will see in future how things are sorted out.

I am not putting a stamp here, but Matzinger is a respected linguist and Albanologist, he for sure has seen some kind of pattern.

 

[Hawk]

Forthcoming. Like the forthcoming E-V13 among Illyrians at rates 10% or under.

I was very careful to say Baltic not Balto-Slavic. Proto-Albanoid was in contact with Balts, this hints north of the Carpathians were not any Slavs at least until 1,200 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words
Reconstructed Dacian has the most isoglosses with Baltic, followed by Albanian. These Albanian words have a clear linear connection, not like Illyrian sica to Albanian thika, or sibina to thuper, which are clearly imported words(from Illyrian contact), and have a acquired a foreign pronunciation in the Proto-Albanian tongue.

John Basset Trumper supports a Central European origin for Albanoid as well. It's likely that Pre/Proto-Albanoid came during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Central Balkans, probability is good, it's there. But, it's still open for debate. North Carpathian region, is the region where one very interesting word which has meaning only in Albanian still is used: Beskidy, which various linguists have hinted (including Cabej) that it comes from Albanoid Bjeshk meaning mountain.

Anyway sooner or latter we will have more and more systematic studies for Ancient Balkans like the one Matzinger and Lippert did on the Illyrians book. Things will get clearer.

 

[Androgenica]

And, you should wait until we get autosomal DNA from other parts of Iron Age Balkans, that would clear up geneflow and DNA component. One thing is clear, Illyrian autosomal DNA is lacking among Albanians, only some northern Ghegs have some north-western Italian pull, J2b heritage.

I'm sorry, but how exactly do you know the autosomal DNA of Illyrians when scientists themselves don't? Are there studies I'm unaware of?

Please link reliable sources. This entire thread is merely hypothetical, conjecture based off limited evidence by internet amateurs (no offence, including yourself) all arriving at wildly different conclusions- thinking they each have the "truth" that others are too illogical to see. I would not mind self delusion if sources were presented to make the conversation more objective.

Please provide sources. Also, while we're at it, I recall you saying that E-V13 is connected to the Gava culture(?). What evidence is there for this?

(I don't have the desire to read 65+ pages of pseudoscience and argumentation, so if I missed your evidence/sources, please link them, thank you)

 

[Excine]

Matzinger doesn't connect Albanian with Thracian into one group and Illyrian into another. Why are you linking a page where Matzinger says nothing about Albanian being related to Thracian?

Matzinger considers it impossible for Albanian to be related to Thracian.:

Als Fazit zur thrakisch-bessischen Hypothese ergibt sich aus einer linguistischer Sicht, dass diese abzulehnen ist, da nur sehr wenig Material zum Sprachvergleich zur Verfügung steht,(28) doch dieses zugleich eine sehr deutlich vom Albanischen unterschiedliche Lautentwicklung indiziert, die sich so nicht mit dem Albanischen vereinen lässt.

Hyllested and Joseph have written a new paper to be published in 2022 and say the same thing, Albanian and Messapic are under an Illyric branch.

@Paleo there are no reconstructed Dacian words which would enter Albanian and Romanian. Most of them are in fact just loanwords from Albanian to Romanian. See Matzinger 2018 Lexicon of Albanian, Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics:


Albanian shares a considerable number of words in common with Rumanian (see Solta 1980: 3 f., 125 f. and Vătăşescu 1997). Some of them are remnants of an old inherited vocabulary (e.g. Albanian thark ‘pen for young livestock’ ~ Rumanian ţarc ‘id.’), while others comprise a younger category of Latin words attested in some cases only in Albanian and Rumanian (e.g. Albanian mëngon ‘get up very early’ ~ Rumanian mâneca ‘id.’ ← Latin *mānicāre ‘id.’). Both classes emerged from old and intensive contacts between the Proto-Albanians and the ancestors of the Rumanians. A widespread opinion regards the older category of the Albano-Rumanian common lexicon as the reflex of an ancient substratum of Thracian, Dacian, or unknown origin (a collection of these words is Brâncuş 1983). Aside from a few single words of perhaps non-Indo-European origin (Albanian modhullë ‘yellow vetchling [Lathyrus aphaca]’ ~ Rumanian mazăre ‘pea’), the largest part of this alleged substratum common to both Albanian and Rumanian consists simply of loan-words in Rumanian from Proto-Albanian, e.g. Rumanian ţarc ‘pen for young livestock’ from Proto-Albanian */tsárka-/ (Modern Albanian thark). The derivational base of this noun is continued in the Old Albanian verb thurën ‘interweave’ (< IE */k̑erH-/ ‘weave’, cf. Latin crātis ‘pen’; see details in Schumacher 2009: 43−45).

 

[Hawk]

Why do you tongue-twist words?

That's not true, he clearly states and groups language families, he groups Illyrian in East Alpine Block OAB language group and Albanian, Greek and Thracian in Balkanic IE not hinting in any inter-relationship between Balkanic IE.

He also says it's impossible for Albanian to be Illyrian descended, we have a case of two different languages.

 

[Excine]

I'm sorry, but how exactly do you know the autosomal DNA of Illyrians when scientists themselves don't? Are there studies I'm unaware of?

Please link reliable sources. This entire thread is merely hypothetical, conjecture based off limited evidence by internet amateurs (no offence, including yourself) all arriving at wildly different conclusions- thinking they each have the "truth" that others are too illogical to see. I would not mind self delusion if sources were presented to make the conversation more objective.

Please provide sources. Also, while we're at it, I recall you saying that E-V13 is connected to the Gava culture(?). What evidence is there for this?

(I don't have the desire to read 65+ pages of pseudoscience and argumentation, so if I missed your evidence/sources, please link them, thank you)

Keep in mind that the majority of the statements made here are speculative and unsupported by solid evidence.

 

[Hawk]

I'm sorry, but how exactly do you know the autosomal DNA of Illyrians when scientists themselves don't? Are there studies I'm unaware of?

Please link reliable sources. This entire thread is merely hypothetical, conjecture based off limited evidence by internet amateurs (no offence, including yourself) all arriving at wildly different conclusions- thinking they each have the "truth" that others are too illogical to see. I would not mind self delusion if sources were presented to make the conversation more objective.

Please provide sources. Also, while we're at it, I recall you saying that E-V13 is connected to the Gava culture(?). What evidence is there for this?

(I don't have the desire to read 65+ pages of pseudoscience and argumentation, so if I missed your evidence/sources, please link them, thank you)

We have leaks from Early Iron Age South-East Bulgaria site called Kapitan-Andreevo full of E-V13, this site is classified by Bulgarian archaeologists as part of Psenicevo Culture which is related to Romanian Babadag Culture and Central Balkan Mediana, Paracin groups.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page20?p=646010&viewfull=1#post646010

these cultures are classified as Eastern Hallstatt, Eastern Urnfielder groups by all archaeologists. Psenicevo is directly derived from Belegis-Gava/Gava Culture. We also have the Channeled-Ware/Kanellure/Fluted Ware incursion into Early Iron Age Macedonia, Albania, Northern Greece as well. Subclade TMRCA, aDNA leaks, burial rite of cremation of these people, everything points to that direction that E-V13 is to be linked with Gava and broader Eastern Urnfielder or Carpathian Urnfielder complexes. These group of people were extremely important during Bronze to Iron Age transition, hence the importance mimicks the E-V13 wide-Balkan presence, and to a degree Central European presence.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Matzinger doesn't connect Albanian with Thracian into one group and Illyrian into another. Why are you linking a page where Matzinger says nothing about Albanian being related to Thracian?

Matzinger considers it impossible for Albanian to be related to Thracian.:

Als Fazit zur thrakisch-bessischen Hypothese ergibt sich aus einer linguistischer Sicht, dass diese abzulehnen ist, da nur sehr wenig Material zum Sprachvergleich zur Verfügung steht,(28) doch dieses zugleich eine sehr deutlich vom Albanischen unterschiedliche Lautentwicklung indiziert, die sich so nicht mit dem Albanischen vereinen lässt.

Hyllested and Joseph have written a new paper to be published in 2022 and say the same thing, Albanian and Messapic are under an Illyric branch.

@Paleo there are no reconstructed Dacian words which would enter Albanian and Romanian. Most of them are in fact just loanwords from Albanian to Romanian. See Matzinger 2018 Lexicon of Albanian, Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics:


Albanian shares a considerable number of words in common with Rumanian (see Solta 1980: 3 f., 125 f. and Vătăşescu 1997). Some of them are remnants of an old inherited vocabulary (e.g. Albanian thark ‘pen for young livestock’ ~ Rumanian ţarc ‘id.’), while others comprise a younger category of Latin words attested in some cases only in Albanian and Rumanian (e.g. Albanian mëngon ‘get up very early’ ~ Rumanian mâneca ‘id.’ ← Latin *mānicāre ‘id.’). Both classes emerged from old and intensive contacts between the Proto-Albanians and the ancestors of the Rumanians. A widespread opinion regards the older category of the Albano-Rumanian common lexicon as the reflex of an ancient substratum of Thracian, Dacian, or unknown origin (a collection of these words is Brâncuş 1983). Aside from a few single words of perhaps non-Indo-European origin (Albanian modhullë ‘yellow vetchling [Lathyrus aphaca]’ ~ Rumanian mazăre ‘pea’), the largest part of this alleged substratum common to both Albanian and Rumanian consists simply of loan-words in Rumanian from Proto-Albanian, e.g. Rumanian ţarc ‘pen for young livestock’ from Proto-Albanian */tsárka-/ (Modern Albanian thark). The derivational base of this noun is continued in the Old Albanian verb thurën ‘interweave’ (< IE */k̑erH-/ ‘weave’, cf. Latin crātis ‘pen’; see details in Schumacher 2009: 43−45).

It would be helpful to yourself to actually read it so you can make sense, your reply might as well be about transgender rights, what are you talking about? I did not say anything about Rumanian and Albanian common words but just Dacian and Albanian. Most of the reconstructed Dacian words do not have any modern Romanian isoglosses, but plenty with Albanian.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Keep in mind that the majority of the statements made here are speculative and unsupported by solid evidence.

You should keep that in mind when you read a history book from Albania.

 

[Excine]

Why do you tongue-twist words?



He also says it's impossible for Albanian to be Illyrian descended, we have a case of two different languages.

No, he doesn't say that Albanian is close to Thracian or grouped with Thracian. He says that Albanian is not related to Thracian and closely related to Illyrian from each it is an independent language. I literally posted the quotes, you posted a quote where he says nothing about Albanian>

 

[Excine]

@androgenica there are no such published samples. One of them should be E-V13 and two should be E-L618 (so probably E-V13), one is E-M96. Not exactly "ton of samples". They are supposed to be from the 6th century BC long after the Proto-Thracian era and because these samples have never been published, it's all speculation. If they were published, we would be able to see their autosomal ancestry and compare it with Illyrians and see where they came from etc.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I'm sorry, but how exactly do you know the autosomal DNA of Illyrians when scientists themselves don't? Are there studies I'm unaware of?

Please link reliable sources. This entire thread is merely hypothetical, conjecture based off limited evidence by internet amateurs (no offence, including yourself) all arriving at wildly different conclusions- thinking they each have the "truth" that others are too illogical to see. I would not mind self delusion if sources were presented to make the conversation more objective.

Please provide sources. Also, while we're at it, I recall you saying that E-V13 is connected to the Gava culture(?). What evidence is there for this?

(I don't have the desire to read 65+ pages of pseudoscience and argumentation, so if I missed your evidence/sources, please link them, thank you)

I read the entire thread before I started replying, why don't you?
Kind of contradictory of yourself, I don't want to read, please find sources for me.

This is a forum about genetics. Genetics is a new field, there is no authority, it's the wild west. Some people have some really good interpretations and are great to read, and some old Dinasaurs just parrot 5th grade history books from Hoxha times. I'm not going to shame you if you have bad taste.

 

[Excine]

It would be helpful to yourself to actually read it so you can make sense, your reply might as well be about transgender rights, what are you talking about? I did not say anything about Rumanian and Albanian common words but just Dacian and Albanian. Most of the reconstructed Dacian words do not have any modern Romanian isoglosses, but plenty with Albanian.

They don't because they don't exist. You've got this entirely backwards. The words which you think are "Dacian reconstructions" are just Albanian words with Proto-Albanian reconstructions. That's all there is to it. There are no "Dacian reconstructions".

 

[Hawk]

No, he doesn't say that Albanian is close to Thracian or grouped with Thracian. He says that Albanian is not related to Thracian and closely related to Illyrian from each it is an independent language. I literally posted the quotes, you posted a quote where he says nothing about Albanian>

I think that you intentionally play games, see the bolded part.

 

[Excine]

I think that you intentionally play games, see the bolded part.

What's so difficult to understand? For Matzinger, Albanian is a different language (not the same, not a linear descendant) from Illyrian AND closely related to it:


Matzinger (2018), Lexicon of Albanian, Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics

[....] Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom. However, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words (see Matzinger 2005): (Messapic-) Oenotrian ῥινός ‘clouds’ ~ Old Geg rẽ, Old Tosk rē ‘cloud’, the Messapic gloss βρένδο- ‘stag’ and the place-name Brundisium (Italian Bríndisi) ~ Old Geg brĩ, or the name of the Illyrian tribe of the Taulantioi ~ Albanian dallëndyshe ‘swallow’ (see Eichner 2004: 10 f.).

 

[Androgenica]

I read the entire thread before I started replying, why don't you?
Kind of contradictory of yourself, I don't want to read, please find sources for me.

This is a forum about genetics. Genetics is a new field, there is no authority, it's the wild west. Some people have some really good interpretations and are great to read, and some old Dinasaurs just parrot 5th grade history books from Hoxha times. I'm not going to shame you if you have bad taste.

That's not how this works. When someone asks you for scientific evidence to prove your claim on what Illyrian autosomal DNA looks like, you simply provide it, not defensively dance around the question. I was earlier told "no such studies exist". I then linked text of those two studies proving they do exist. Easy, right?

If genetics is the wild west, why bother espousing theories you're later unwilling to expand on?

That shows distrust in your own ideas. Once again: Provide evidence for your claims on Illyrian autosomal DNA or stop making such claims.

 

[Hawk]

I see trolls roaming around, infecting a good thread.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

They don't because they don't exist. You've got this entirely backwards. The words which you think are "Dacian reconstructions" are just Albanian words with Proto-Albanian reconstructions. That's all there is to it. There are no "Dacian reconstructions".

The words reconstructed strictly through Albanian-Romanian backward engineering are at the bottom of the article and clearly noted as being unreliable.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

That's not how this works. When someone asks you for scientific evidence to prove your claim on what Illyrian autosomal DNA looks like, you simply provide it, not defensively dance around the question. I was earlier told "no such studies exist". I then linked text of those two studies proving they do exist. Easy, right?

If genetics is the wild west, why bother espousing theories you're later unwilling to expand on?

That shows distrust in your own ideas. Once again: Provide evidence for your claims on Illyrian autosomal DNA or stop making such claims.

LMAO, get lost clown. I would offer you to clean my toilet how about that.