Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

These models don't prove anything
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Exine, you were never the brightest bulb in the shed. I worked on vahaduo for the first time. I was confident in the model and made it public. No one showed the models core function to be wrong. The Greek guy pointed out I should use imperial MENA profiles. I did and the fit got better. I was able to reduce the variables. There is a reason the cheese boy Archtype refused to criticize what was wrong with my variables, cause he knew it will only make it better and surpass his cheezy model even further.

Bruzmi only criticism was that you can use my model neighboring populations, yes because the foundations are good, but with a lousy fit, because for Greek islanders, you need the right starting point, and it's not Thracian. He claimed the fit does not have to be super tight to be viable, which is plain wrong, in theory Alb should get 100% match Alb and nothing else.

So I showed that with the calculator you guys keep throwing into people's faces using pseudo averages like mdv Dalmatia, ancient Alb, mdv Alb, phony mdv Albania, all in one giant umbrella, that there is a much better cleaner working model with Thracian. I am happy I was able to demonstrate the best working fit, no one denied the fit does not work extremely well. I also brought to people's attention that Bruzmi averages are sus. I have added additional profiles to Davidiski's set, my sample is now 20 and the fit remains the same, almost zero change(a tiny bit of improvement). I will add this, that even the Kukes mdv average prefer Thracian as top pick, for best fitting model. So there is a issue here, all public available G25 profiles agree with Davidski's original Alb average.

Some months ago Bruzmi said the Alb average sample is now 79, well those extra 59 people he has must a different profile from the 20 I have been able to gather(which also must be part of his 79 tally). Shady stuff.


You have completely misunderstood what I did there. I did not come there to make friends or convince ideological fanatics or engage bot personalities in linguistic debates, the point was to show my findings to the Greek and other members who take a interest in modeling Albanians, that there is a better way. So forging data and making up pseudo models will get more scrutiny going forward. I have no interest in debating anyone who I know is simply programmed and emotionally attached to a nonsense theory. I also did get some good helpful feedback, which I do appreciate. If Albanian modeling gets brought up in any thread, I will gladly log in, and flaunt my superior model. Other than that I won't be engaging bot like personalities and disrupt theme discussion in various threads, I'm a respectful person, as long as I am respected. Thats it.


And lastly, you have the urge to talk to me. I could care less if I never hear from you again. Keep that in mind every time you come here to tap my leg like a child.
Click to expand...

Its either the brightest candle, or the sharpest tool in the shed. But the brightest tool in the shed? Oh Lord, the irony :LOL:
Here is a guide you absolute moron: http://www.jmm.org.au/articles/14071.htm

I refuse to criticize your shit, cause I would have to lose IQ trying to re-read that stuff.

Here is what your models look like:

JpoBeE2.png


Judging by your 'bright tool in the shed', doubt you would get the pseudo satire of the above.
You did something mate, *slow clap*.
 
The E-V13 samples distance

Distance to:ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
0.02742545CZE_IA_La_Tene:I17139
0.03152487SRB_BA:I17912
0.03331283HUN_early_Avar:MM131
0.03356102MNE_LBA:I13172
0.03393812HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03445125HRV_MBA:I26726
0.03459529SRB_BA:I17913
0.03464924DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric:NW_54
0.03467261ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole:CSN006
0.03467688SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK31
0.03473453SVN_EIA:I22940
0.03505717HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.03516161HUN_early_Avar:MS43
0.03556158HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18834
0.03583980SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03586256MNE_LBA:I13778
0.03593545HRV_BA:I5074
0.03603379MNE_LBA:I13777
0.03606563HUN_early_Avar:MS45
0.03609815HUN_La_Tene:I18491
0.03615253HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.03651398HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
0.03663615MKD_Anc:I10385
0.03695543HRV_EIA:I24639
0.03714660HRV_BA:I18748

Distance to:ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
0.02582730HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.02644317MNE_LBA:I13777
0.02800750HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.02816046SRB_BA_Maros:I23209
0.02877046SRB_BA:I17912
0.02897195HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.02904827HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.03004671MNE_LBA:I13168
0.03053016SRB_BA:I16803
0.03093311HUN_late_Avar:SZKT265
0.03112798HRV_BA:I18748
0.03129665ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.03130431HRV_BA:I5080
0.03136522HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.03148549HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18529
0.03157443Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:pRU001.A0101
0.03205084HUN_late_Avar:ARK38
0.03286578HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18528
0.03298742HUN_BA:I7043
0.03313887CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3:I13794
0.03315753SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.03331552HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18834
0.03339874HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.03349799MNE_LBA:I13169
0.03355738HUN_La_Tene:I18491

To me it looks clearly they were somewhere from North-Western Balkans, the Urnfield-Hallstat sphere, mercenaries from there.
 
So, i played around with some models and i am convinced these samples are not core/Southern Illyrians, but neither Thracian or Dacian because all of these people score to a degree some West_Asian in them which the aforementioned samples totally lack it. So they must be some La Tene Pannonian/Celtic Iron Age descended mercenaries. Making an educated guess geography-wise, not their real ethnic affiliations. For me, the Veneti/Liburni fit the bill. Este Culture was more inland before migrating during transitional period in Northern East Adriatic hence the combo Central-European/Western Balkans affiliations without being drawn toward Myceneans and Eastern Balkans.

Anyone agrees or thinks otherwise?
 
Hawk said:
So, i played around with some models and i am convinced these samples are not core/Southern Illyrians, but neither Thracian or Dacian because all of these people score to a degree some West_Asian in them which the aforementioned samples totally lack it. So they must be some La Tene Pannonian/Celtic Iron Age descended mercenaries. Making an educated guess geography-wise, not their real ethnic affiliations. For me, the Veneti/Liburni fit the bill. Este Culture was more inland before migrating during transitional period in Northern East Adriatic hence the combo Central-European/Western Balkans affiliations without being drawn toward Myceneans and Eastern Balkans.
Click to expand...

Could very well be the case. But its a hard call to make, because I suspect the vector of this West Asian ancestry admixed with core Illyrians as well.

parasar said:
Fascinating:
"Two (I10944/W0461 and I10947/W1774; Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4) fall with individuals from IA nomadic contexts in the Eurasian Steppe and carry in the ADMIXTURE analysis genetic components maximized in Han and Karitiana (Native Americans) that characterize most IA Steppe nomads (light green and purple, respectively, in SI Appendix, Fig. S2B). In qpAdm, their ancestry is consistent, with around 85–89% deriving from IA Central steppe nomads and 11–15% from an Aegean-like source, an admixture that plausibly could have taken place among the genetically diverse populations of the Steppe (68, 69). Their mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups suggest east Eurasian genetic roots: A6a, found so far only in modern-day China (70, 71), and N1a1a1a, restricted to Russia, Kazakhstan, and Mongolia (72)."
Click to expand...

pegasus said:
He is right they are straight out of the Steppe


ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944


SampleFitSintashta MLBAGonur1 BAUlaanzuukh Slab GraveKAZ Botai
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I109441.3972.51296.5
Average (Urals Sarmatian)0.7166.5168.59
Click to expand...


I myself, but also other Balkaners, show 1-2% of something Han/Karitiana-like admixture.

Another interesting note is how widespread, the so called "Western Balkans" autosomal signature was, right now it looks like something from Albania to Croatia to Hungary and Serbia. Raises important questions whether autosomal signatures and ethnicity are interchangeable terms.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Could very well be the case. But its a hard call to make, because I suspect the vector of this West Asian ancestry admixed with core Illyrians as well.






I myself, but also other Balkaners, show 1-2% of something Han/Karitiana-like admixture.

Another interesting note is how widespread, the so called "Western Balkans" autosomal signature was, right now it looks like something from Albania to Croatia to Hungary and Serbia. Raises important questions whether autosomal signatures and ethnicity are interchangeable terms.
Click to expand...

Just made this model on the fly. Notice if you see Western vis a vis Eastern Balkans it doesn't mean to be taken literally, it can mean somewhere in between as well.

Code: 
East_Balkans:BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181,0.119514,0.157407,0.007165,-0.039083,0.028621,-0.023985,-0.003995,-0.003923,0.014726,0.04319,0.002923,0.008692,-0.0278,0.003165,-0.016422,0.003315,0.032074,0.008108,0.018603,-0.004252,-0.00836,-0.000742,-0.010106,0.002289,-0.016885
East_Balkans:BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183,0.120652,0.160454,0.010559,-0.041344,0.030775,-0.02259,0.00282,-0.003,0.017794,0.047017,0.003085,0.013488,-0.008771,-0.004954,-0.029587,0.005171,0.024903,0.003674,0.008673,-0.001,-0.004866,-0.00371,0.000739,0.005784,-0.011017
East_Balkans:Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
East_Balkans:BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186,0.122929,0.155376,0.007542,-0.059755,0.031698,-0.025937,0.0047,-0.005077,0.009408,0.049204,-0.001624,0.009292,-0.020069,0.007432,-0.028637,-0.016706,-0.001043,0.000633,0.01433,-0.010505,-0.009733,0.001855,-0.005669,0.003976,-0.002515
Western_Balkans:HRV_IA:I5723,0.124067,0.152329,0.039221,-0.006783,0.045239,-0.00251,0.00188,-0.003231,0.012271,0.030616,-0.004547,0.006444,-0.016501,-0.003441,-0.010043,0.003447,-0.000913,0.000887,0.004902,0.002376,-0.00836,0.001607,-0.004437,-0.001205,0.001557
Western_Balkans:HRV_IA:I5724,0.126344,0.152329,0.027907,0.006783,0.033237,-0.00753,0.006815,0.003923,0.01493,0.028976,-0.000162,0.008393,-0.009663,-0.00812,-0.007465,0.001458,-0.002086,0.007348,0.011816,-0.003377,-0.005989,0.011871,0.002095,-0.010724,0.000479
Western_Balkans:MNE_LBA:I13168,0.127482,0.150298,0.025644,0,0.031083,-0.001394,-0.000235,0.001846,0.006545,0.027518,0.005846,0.006894,-0.019177,-0.004817,-0.012758,0.00053,0.012386,0.002027,0.003394,-0.006253,-0.006988,0.008037,-0.004314,0.008194,-0.003233
Western_Balkans:MNE_LBA:I13169,0.129758,0.142174,0.027907,-0.01615,0.031083,-0.005857,0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.029158,0.00747,0.003897,-0.011298,-0.013625,-0.014115,-0.002784,0.004433,-0.007475,0.003771,-0.004877,-0.015098,0.013973,-0.001602,0.002048,-0.003113
Western_Balkans:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690,0.125205,0.149283,0.034318,-0.00646,0.029544,-0.005857,-0.001175,0.004846,-0.00225,0.019681,0.001461,0.002698,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.003122,0.002121,0.001825,0.003167,0.002011,-0.002501,-0.007861,0.003462,0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005269
Western_Balkans:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692,0.125205,0.152329,0.025644,-0.010336,0.019388,0.001116,-0.008695,0.003461,0.006136,0.025878,0.007145,0.010641,-0.018583,-0.00234,-0.011536,-0.006099,0.008605,0.00038,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.010981,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.012411,0.003113
Southern_Balkans:GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709,0.130897,0.177718,-0.004148,-0.060078,0.026466,-0.027889,0.01081,-0.004846,0.002659,0.036629,0.002598,0.020831,-0.018731,0.013625,-0.036237,-0.020817,-0.005867,0.002407,0.001885,-0.007629,-0.018093,0.011252,-0.002835,0.000723,0.000239
Southern_Balkans:GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577,0.129758,0.164516,0.008297,-0.052972,0.02739,-0.025937,-0.00517,-0.002538,0.005931,0.027882,0.008444,0.006894,-0.02215,-0.003853,-0.018594,-0.003315,0.022296,0.000507,0.013952,-0.003126,-0.014724,-0.00779,0.00949,0.000482,-0.007424
Central_Europe:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18528,0.12862,0.145221,0.038089,-0.000323,0.037853,-0.002789,0.002585,0.004846,0.011044,0.016948,0.001137,0.003747,-0.01115,0.004129,-0.003936,-0.003447,0.007693,-0.004941,0.000251,0.006503,-0.006988,0.004575,-0.007395,-0.006989,-0.00958
Central_Europe:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18529,0.127482,0.142174,0.034695,0.002907,0.039084,-0.009482,0.005875,0.005538,0.015135,0.02442,-0.003248,0.002847,-0.010704,-0.000963,-0.007736,0.003447,0.010822,-0.00266,-0.002388,-0.009004,-0.003993,0.008903,-0.001725,0.001205,-0.003473
Central_Europe:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18530,0.124067,0.146236,0.046763,0.013243,0.049548,0.008367,-0.004465,0.009,0.018612,0.025695,-0.003735,0.004646,-0.019029,-0.006055,0.002714,0.005038,0.01017,-0.001774,0.00264,-0.001626,0.010357,0.007048,-0.000616,-0.010483,0.004191
Central_Europe:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I15071,0.129758,0.146236,0.058077,0.024225,0.04647,0.006693,0.00893,0.003923,-0.004704,0.004374,-0.006008,0.015586,-0.014123,-0.007294,0.010179,0.005304,-0.005998,-0.005828,0.000754,0.003502,0.000374,-0.003957,0.002958,-0.015544,0.001078
Central_Europe:CZE_IA_Hallstatt:I16088,0.127482,0.13405,0.053928,0.040698,0.037853,0.001952,0.017156,0.009692,0.010022,0.01549,-0.001949,-0.001049,-0.006095,-0.004679,-0.000407,0.002121,0.003129,-0.004307,0.010307,-0.002001,-0.000499,-0.007666,0.005053,-0.003615,0.003113



Target: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
Distance: 2.5664% / 0.02566420
71.8Western_Balkans
25.4East_Balkans
2.8Southern_Balkans


Target: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
100.0Western_Balkans


Target: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
Distance: 0.0092% / 0.00009220
99.6Western_Balkans
0.2Central_Europe
0.2Southern_Balkans


Target: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688
Distance: 2.5452% / 0.02545162
48.0Western_Balkans
36.0Southern_Balkans
8.2East_Balkans
7.8Central_Europe



Target: Scythian_MDA:scy197
Distance: 0.0108% / 0.00010835
99.8East_Balkans
0.2Central_Europe


Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
Distance: 1.9292% / 0.01929180
51.8Central_Europe
30.8East_Balkans
11.4Western_Balkans
6.0Southern_Balkans


Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
Distance: 3.0034% / 0.03003371
51.0Western_Balkans
26.0Central_Europe
15.8Southern_Balkans
7.2East_Balkans

Notice how i can envision that I10946 geographically wise came from somewhere more South-Western than I10950 who lived somewhere more North-East than than I10946. But, Pannonia on general is the best bet.
 
I personally do not hold in high regard the east west discussions the last few months, cause I feel most people have got a chip on their shoulder when dealing with these topics. Furthermore, the problem with G25 as a model, is that it works too well, without a way to quality control for errors.

Now the real issue I find with the standards of nomenclature. One philosophy is to go Reich way, and name it concisely, location, date, maybe culture. But that is too dry. By not nuancing all the metadata in the name, when one sees a model they can be mislead. But the problem with adding more metadata as we do on fora, be you or me or anyone else, is that we embed our own assumptions into the title, with a high chance of error and certainty of arbitrariness. So how to deal with this I am not sure.

What I see however, is rather one axis, north-west to south-east, with the only discernible difference being a rise in steppe North (whether Moldova or Croatia vis a vis Greece and Bulgaria), and a rise in WHG West (Serbia, to Hungary, to Italy). All the samples BA onward fall somewhere in that axis. Whether this axis can be taken as a ruler for creating West - East distinction I am not so sure, but I think in reality things are much more complicated than we like to think.

As for the models I guess they are as good as any. But some places you have instances as below, where you forgot to remove the sample in your target from the source tab.

Target: ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
100.0Western_Balkans
 
I added the Baltic some sort of ancient proxy for North-East European one, not accounting for the various admixtures that Slavs acquired on their migrations further South.

Code: 
Baltic_EST_BA:s19_0LS11_1,0.138864,0.116786,0.103331,0.101422,0.062781,0.039881,0.014806,0.014076,-0.001636,-0.050297,0.003085,-0.020682,0.046531,0.036883,-0.02253,0.017237,0.019036,-0.006334,0.002263,0.027888,-0.008111,-0.007172,0.013188,-0.017352,0.010538




Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.2658% / 0.02265816

39.0Southern_Balkans
24.8Western_Balkans
23.8East_Balkans
12.4Baltic
Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.2657% / 0.02265734 | ADC: 0.25x RC

38.6Southern_Balkans
25.2Western_Balkans
24.0East_Balkans
12.2Baltic
 
Hawk said:
I added the Baltic some sort of ancient proxy for North-East European one, not accounting for the various admixtures that Slavs acquired on their migrations further South.

Code: 
Baltic_EST_BA:s19_0LS11_1,0.138864,0.116786,0.103331,0.101422,0.062781,0.039881,0.014806,0.014076,-0.001636,-0.050297,0.003085,-0.020682,0.046531,0.036883,-0.02253,0.017237,0.019036,-0.006334,0.002263,0.027888,-0.008111,-0.007172,0.013188,-0.017352,0.010538




Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.2658% / 0.02265816
39.0Southern_Balkans
24.8Western_Balkans
23.8East_Balkans
12.4Baltic
Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.2657% / 0.02265734 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.6Southern_Balkans
25.2Western_Balkans
24.0East_Balkans
12.2Baltic
Click to expand...

Model makes a lot of sense when shown this way, and knowing where you are from.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Model makes a lot of sense when shown this way, and knowing where you are from.
Click to expand...

Yeah, these tools are not 100% correct, not even approaching it, considering that there is not reliable source-of-truth.
 
Hawk said:
Yeah, these tools are not 100% correct, not even approaching it, considering that there is not reliable source-of-truth.
Click to expand...

Once I get some free time I will try to figure out how to get autosomal data into the geno file from Reich. Then see how that works with fstats. Fstats might not be the truth per se, but at least it can separate the wheat from the chaff 95% of the time. The output should be enough to build a lot of interesting models on G25.

It would be really cool to model our own autosomal profiles with the formal methods used in these papers.
 
Last edited:
Archetype0ne said:
Once I get some free time I will try to figure out how to get autosomal data into the geno file from Reich. Then see how that works with fstats. Fstats might not be the truth per se, but at least it can separate the wheat from the chaff 95% of the time. The other 5% should be enough to build a lot of interesting models on G25.

It would be really cool to model our own autosomal profiles with the formal methods used in these papers.
Click to expand...

Alright, try these samples as well.
 
Hawk said:
Alright, try these samples as well.
Click to expand...

Will let you know once I figure out how to merge raw files with the geno, and we can make a new thread.
 
To me it looks clear, i think easternmost they are Central-Balkanite with origin. This profile cannot be purely from Eastern Balkans.

aaYzZpC.png
 
Archetype0ne said:
Its either the brightest candle, or the sharpest tool in the shed. But the brightest tool in the shed? Oh Lord, the irony :LOL:
Here is a guide you absolute moron: http://www.jmm.org.au/articles/14071.htm

I refuse to criticize your shit, cause I would have to lose IQ trying to re-read that stuff.

Here is what your models look like:

JpoBeE2.png


Judging by your 'bright tool in the shed', doubt you would get the pseudo satire of the above.
You did something mate, *slow clap*.
Click to expand...


Archtype on one on one basis, Thracian wins, my model successfully identified the possible parent population, you're being sour loser. You speak of IQ as if you are the father of it and you gave it birth out of your own pompous ass. Nothing exemplary shines out of you, believe me mate, so humble down bit.

When you throw multiple overlapping IA populations into the model, yeah the fit gets super tight, especially if they are relevant.

Here is me, applying the same dishonest method you used.
0bhoMqj.png
 
Illyria said:
These models don't prove anything
Click to expand...


You, Exine and others are welcome to share your G25 and I will make it part of my ALB average and run the test again. Let the data do the talking. As of now, based on my sample of 20 individuals, Thracian wins, hands down.

6w3s71.jpg
 
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