Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[1337]

"Their proof" is I quoted 2 linguists saying the same thing

Istvan Schutz "The name of the Dalmatian/Delmata Illyrian tribe, Dalmatia/Delmatia area, the Illyrian city Delminium/Dalmion, and the name of the present-day Delvinë and Delvinaqi geographical units are related to the Albanian words dele (plural delme) 'sheep', delmer 'shepherd'. Strabo adds the epithet "...πεδιον μελωβοτον..." to the name of the Illyrian city Delmion, meaning "sheep-feeding plain"."

"Linguist Xhelal Ylli translates Delvinë as "white sheep"."

So now you admit a relation to other Illyrian tribes ? First you argued tribes outside Albania were supposedly not Illyrian despite there seems to be a connection even to Messapian, Dalmatian, Dardanian etc. We also have the ''Dardha'' tribe for example. Seems even a connection to the Hallstatt and Maykop.

'Arber', 'Arberia' etc comes from the name Albanoi, Arbanon etc. These names were used in the past, then Epirotarium came to be used or 'Epirote' , modern Albania was part of Roman Epirus and medieval Albanians referred to themselves as 'Epirote' , although it was never really inhabited by the actual Epirote tribe which was more South of the Shkumbin. It's kinda like how modern Northern Macedonia became named 'Macedonia' by the Romans. Interesting enough. I wonder if these names have historical connection which the Romans regarded ? Some say for example Roman Epirus in Albania had Greek influence at one point rather than Latin.

Origin of Albanians is in the Maykop culture. Barleti writes Albanians came from Colchis.

Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania. In a digression early in the work he elucidates his view upon the history of the nation based on the Roman historiographer Pompeius Trogus and his own contemporary, Pope Pius. Thus, the Albanians originally lived in Colchis on the Black Sea, from where they brought their language. They first emigrated to the Albanian hills near Rome. When Hercules as one of his twelve tasks had killed Geryones and was driving the latter’s cattle from Spain through Italy, he stayed for a time in the Albanian hills. From there the Albanians followed him, and they now live in Macedonia and the Peloponnese.

http://scanderbeg.dk/Barleti-Scanderbeg.htm

Colchis was where Maykop was located and where J2b2-L283 was found. We came from Caucasus. All humans in Europe came from Caucasus. Even Serboi tribe are Caucasus.

 

[1337]

[FONT=&quot]The evidence is in fact very mixed; some of the Albanian forms (of both urban and rural names) suggest transmission via Slav, but others -including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [/FONT][48][FONT=&quot] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [/FONT][49][FONT=&quot] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms. [/FONT][50]

Epirote were possibly a related tribe as were the Ancient Macedonians, Dardanians, Taulantii etc other tribes too within Albania and around Albania. During Roman period we receieved more Latin influence.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Matzingers position is that the proto-Albanians first moved to north albanian regions, and that some historical process resulted in them adopting the ethnonym Albanoi.
We see Albanians calling themselves and being called epirotes based on epirus nova in middle ages, so its not far fetched that if they lived in the region of arbanon they might adopt it as an ethnonym.

Absolutely not true! You and your Matziger are liars.
[h=3]1705-1715
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:
Correspondence on the Albanian Language[/h][FONT=&quot](Hanover, 28 December 1711)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]… The modern European alphabets are derived from Latin, with the exception of the two Slavic ones: Cyrillic and so-called Glagolitic. Some authors later attributed these to Saint Jerome who was of Illyrian origin, but falsely so, as if the ancient Illyrian language were some sort of Slavic. But the Slavs were late to arrive in Illyria, not before the age of Justinian. The ancient Illyrians were of Celtic origin. They used a language closely related to Germanic and Gaulish. It is evident that relics of this are preserved in the modern language, in particular in that of the Epirots, of which I have seen specimens published. Nowadays they generally call the Slavic language Illyrian because the Slavs settled in Illyria. …

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Vienna, 13 January 1714)

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]II. …One day in Berlin you gave me a book in the language of the Epirots, printed in Rome by the Propaganda Fide. I believe it had the Lord's Prayer in that language and I took it out. But I cannot easily find it in my letters. Would you be so kind, Sir, as to send it to me once more?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Hanover, 24 March 1715)
[Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Opera Philologica (Hildesheim: Georg Olms, 1989). Translated from the French by Robert Elsie.]
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1705_Leibniz/index.html

[/FONT]

 

[1337]

Dardanians were most likely an Albanoid-like tribe like many other Illyrians in the vicinity of the Albanoi. I do believe the Albanoi played a role in the origin of our people, or the name came from there, my point is they seem to of lived in other areas and mingled with other tribes and revolted against the Romans such as the inscription found in Skopje and mention of them in Southern Albania. There is mention of 'Albanos' in Macedonia. My point is other people contributed too and picked up the name.

Dardha = Dardania. An Albanian word. These were all related tribes. In the south they received more Greek influence. Epirote were probably Greek like Macedonians but mingled with Illyrians and Thracians.

Shkup, Shtip, Shkodra, Lezha, Durres, Vushtrri, Shar etc [FONT=&quot]follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin [/FONT], Albanian changes. It is hilarious how these Balkan Slavs supposedly claim we started coming to their land when our people have been living in the Balkans for thousands of years and quarreled with other tribes. It seems completely rubbish.

[FONT=&quot] Illyrian names and Albanian words than there are in the case of Thracian (though there are some of both, and some names were common to the two ancient languages). Most of these relate to place-names in the area of central and northern Albania, such as the river Mat (Alb.: mat, river-bank) or the town of Ulqin or Ulcinium (Alb.: ujk or ulk, wolf), or indeed the early name for the Kosovo area, 'Dardania' (Alb.: dardhe, pear)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [/FONT][8][FONT=&quot] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [/FONT][9]

[FONT=&quot]Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.[/FONT]

Not a single land these people didn't invade and occupy.

What about Romanian, Aromanian etc ?

 

[mount123]

Colchis was where Maykop was located and where J2b2-L283 was found. We came from Caucasus. All humans in Europe came from Caucasus. Even Serboi tribe are Caucasus.

Thanks for verifying that you are a troll account with a false bio info.

 

[1337]

Some of those I quoted is from Noel Malcolm, he never really said that Albanians 100% are from Dardanians. He seems to regard the Romanian/Vlach language from there. He said it's just a theory and that it does not matter. I actually agree but to these delusional Balkan Slavs all these things matter be it in Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosova, Nish, Sandzak, Epirus or any area where Illyrians lived, we supposedly have to prove some ''continuity'' In their minds they have constructed modern Balkan conflicts as ancient and project modern ethno-nationalism into the past. ''Oh we were here first, they started coming to our lands'' and trying to prove some Balkan pre-Slavic autochtonity When in reality all humans have migrated. That's why you see so many of them do DNA tests, extremely complexed and manipulative people.

 

[1337]

Some of those I quoted is from Noel Malcolm, he never really said that Albanians 100% are from Dardanians. He seems to regard the Romanian/Vlach language from there. He said it's just a theory and that it does not matter. I actually agree but to these delusional Balkan Slavs all these things matter be it in Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosova, Nish, Sandzak, Epirus or any area where Illyrians lived, we supposedly have to prove some ''continuity'' In their minds they have constructed modern Balkan conflicts as ancient and project modern ethno-nationalism into the past. ''Oh we were here first, they started coming to our lands'' and trying to prove some Balkan pre-Slavic autochtonity When in reality all humans have migrated. That's why you see so many of them do DNA tests, extremely complexed and manipulative people.

They claim all the Ancient Balkans as theirs when they literally speak a Slavic language , that says a lot, as if it matters how many people were assimilated or not. Completely irrelevant. But when people became Muslims during Ottoman rule they were turned later during their fairytale invention of nationalism in the 19th century into ''traitors'' , every Muslim was automatically a Turk. They construct their own fake history.

Slavs = Good, Ottomans and Turks = bad in their minds.

Just extremely butthurt people. That's why you seem them either claim we are Dacians or some Thracians or they claim we lived in some small area of ''Illyria'' , as if it supposedly matters. Or some recent immigrants from Sicily or Caucasus.
Their expansion into these areas was literally an invasion.

 

[1337]

Bulgarian text mentioning Albanian language in eartly 11th century apparently:

Little is known about the Albanian people prior to the 11th century, though a text compiled around the beginning of the 11th century in the Bulgarian language contains a possible reference to them.^[104] It is preserved in a manuscript written in the Serbo-Croatian Language traced back to the 17th century but published in the 20th century by Radoslav Grujic. It is a fragment of a once longer text that endeavours to explain the origins of peoples and languages in a question-and-answer form similar to a catechism.
The fragmented manuscript differentiated the world into 72 languages and three religious categories including Christians, half-believers and non-believers. Grujic dated it to the early 11th century and, if this and the identification of the Arbanasi as Albanians are correct, it would be the earliest written document referring to the Balkan Albanians as a people or language group.^[104]

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian (Georgian). There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi and Germans.
​

Interesting it does not mention Serbian language,, nor ''Macedonian'' (Because they are Bulgarians after all) ... No mention of Vlachs though Vlachs were around there for sure as they served under the Bulgarian Empire.

The Bulgarian Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Empire


It is interesting how the Serbs claim they supposedly dominated these lands since 600 AD. Not a single historical evidence. In one Serbian book I read, which was a response to Noel Malcolm's book, they ''argue'' the same thing and argue Albanians are an Asian race apparently arrived from Caucasus in the 11th century. Yet no compelling evidence.

They claim Lipjan in Kosovo is a Serbian word when it is actually from Lypenion mentioned before Serbs, same with Prizren . etc

 

[mount123]

It generally baffles me how a troll account is able to generate and make this much posts with off topic non sense in a set of two days.

This is a linguistic thread and does not have anything to do with your pseudo scientific Caucasus non sense fantasy or some silly Serbian propagandistic writings you like to quote so often.

You've made your non sense points, now move on.

 

[1337]

I'm actually starting to believe in this whole Dardanian theory tbh or that they played a role together with the Albanoi. I can't bother to explain right now. Dardanians must of had EV-13.

 

[Dinaric Superman]

The user "1337 '


''Interesting it does not mention Serbian language,, nor ''Macedonian'' (Because they are Bulgarians after all) ... No mention of Vlachs though Vlachs were around there for sure as they served under the Bulgarian Empire.''


Best to learn some basics on the region instead of speaking falsehoods. Bulgaria was inhabited by Vlachs & Turkic groups before it got re-culturated from Macedonia in the 11th century. It is modern Bulgarians who are very confused about their origins, not Macedonians.

 

[Dinaric Superman]

IMO, there's no point in speculating about 'Dardanians', or "Bessi'. If one wants to understand the genesis of proto-Albanians, then you need to decipher what was happening in the 7th-11th centuries AD

 

[1337]

IMO, there's no point in speculating about 'Dardanians', or "Bessi'. If one wants to understand the genesis of proto-Albanians, then you need to decipher what was happening in the 7th-11th centuries AD

Bessi were Greek influenced in their language and were taught Christianity in their own language but they are an interesting tribe but doubt they were ancestor of Albanians as they were mentioned in 900 AD in Bulgaria , we don't know much what happened in those times anyway,

I am not anti-Macedonia nor do I dream of any nationalist seccessions and Bulgaria has no claim to Macedonia

 

[1337]

It's also not correct to say you are ''Bulgarians'' but I was speaking more about the Macedonian-Bulgarian language.

[FONT=&quot]Kosovo was to remain under Bulgarian or Macedonian rulers until 1014-18, when the army of the Macedonian-based Tsar Samuel died, his empire broke up, and Byzantine power was fully re-established by a strong and decisive Emperor, Basil 'the Bulgar-killer'. For nearly two centuries after that, Kosovo would stay under Byzantine rule. [/FONT]

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Here some village names mentioned in the previous posts and their variation in some Ottoman documents:

Bukorovats aka Buhova
Bukurovce aka Dolna Bukorofcha
Bilishte aka Bihlishte
Dreatin is a new village, settled by inhabitants from Nedelishte
Businche;Bushindzhe;Boshentsi;Bisintsi (yep, these all four variants for the same place)
Arzan was some bey ciftlik, no mention of the origins of the landlord or the workforce
"Zabel" means also "branishte" , "little forest" (in an Ottoman document found оnce also as Zhabel /Жабел)
Gintsi , aka Gintcha in some docs.



Here is a list of Pirot area villages ,post y.1878. First column the Serbisized (per Milicevic, "Kralevina Srbija") version of the villages, and in the fourth column- the original ones.


http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/index.htm


http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t1.jpg
http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t2.jpg
http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t3.jpg
http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t4.jpg


Burel , versions of origin - "burya" (storm); "bure" (barrel)..or from the Bulgar "bur" - limestone (could not find any proof of this). List of all villages of the Burel Valley :


https://books.google.com/books/cont...sig=ACfU3U2aG1H5eiTZhZ65NSEbpQDeZJi3nA&w=1025


And some local lore that existed on both sides of the border and also in Sofia region:
"MuzhEte sto smo, Rusi smo, a zhenEte ni su latInke" (We, the men ,are from Rus' , and our women are Latin"...the stressed vowels in caps).
https://books.google.com/books/cont...sig=ACfU3U37eGfYHUE5hGDyNqMToFbm0rx5MA&w=1025

As for Ruy , some think it comes from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ῥοῦς#Ancient_Greek
...or Latin "Rhus".

I don't speak any Slavic languages. I'll pass on some of the explanations, because they seem forced. These toponyms don't appear elsewhere in the Slavic speaking world, forcing a Slavic explanation is not a reasonable approach.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Here is another, Mazarachevo.

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/45/Mazarachevo.html

Again not found elsewhere in Bulgaria, Macedonia or Bosnia. There is one settlement Mazaric in Presevo valley, but is probably an Ottoman period rather than an old toponym and another one in northern Montenegro. It is very likely related to Mazareku, a very common Albanian clan name. The region of Chameria, around the Kalamas river had settled the Mazaraki that resisted Thomas the Serbian successfully.
This toponym is associated with Albanian migrations during the middle ages in Greece.
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/GR/a/M/a/z/

 

[PaleoRevenge]

"Their proof" is I quoted 2 linguists saying the same thing

Istvan Schutz "The name of the Dalmatian/Delmata Illyrian tribe, Dalmatia/Delmatia area, the Illyrian city Delminium/Dalmion, and the name of the present-day Delvinë and Delvinaqi geographical units are related to the Albanian words dele (plural delme) 'sheep', delmer 'shepherd'. Strabo adds the epithet "...πεδιον μελωβοτον..." to the name of the Illyrian city Delmion, meaning "sheep-feeding plain"."
"

Googled Istvan Schutz, no English record, googled your quote, nothing. Your boy is not even quoted anywhere. Are you going to quote some random Indian pen author from the ghettos of Delphi next?

"Linguist Xhelal Ylli translates Delvinë as "white sheep"

Xhinxhile Ylli should have stuck to herding dele. This is comical. He could have said it translates to sheep came/come, still hilarious but at least it is genuinely an Albanian explanation "dele vine".

Let me try this Enver science on mount Olympus, first start by making random animal sounds, Ohhhhh mhhhhh poof.
Than you let your unconscious mind bring back ancient memories and knowledge, and from those animal sounds we can reconstruct Olympus as "O lum puth". Because such a high mountain creates joy and passion, you want to kiss. There, Pellasgian connection confirmed.

 

[td120]

I don't speak any Slavic languages. I'll pass on some of the explanations, because they seem forced. These toponyms don't appear elsewhere in the Slavic speaking world, forcing a Slavic explanation is not a reasonable approach.

Been drinking???

I don't force anything , I just quoted the variants of the earlier-mentioned villages the way they appear in the Ottoman registers. No dogs of mine in this fight ...

As for https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мазарачево

"There are two explanations for the name of the village. According to one, it originates from the Turkish words "mezar" (grave) and "agaç" (tree), i.e. "tree where there is a grave", according to the other - from the Romanian loanword "mazara" (pea, chickpea), i.e. a place where peas, chickpeas are grown."

"The village is mentioned in Ottoman-Turkish tax documents under the names Mazarach and Delvino (1570), Mazaraj and Mazarach (1576). In a Russian triverst map from 1878 it is marked as Mazarachevo."

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Been drinking???

I don't force anything , I just quoted the variants of the earlier-mentioned villages the way they appear in the Ottoman registers. No dogs of mine in this fight ...

As for https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мазарачево

"There are two explanations for the name of the village. According to one, it originates from the Turkish words "mezar" (grave) and "agaç" (tree), i.e. "tree where there is a grave", according to the other - from the Romanian loanword "mazara" (pea, chickpea), i.e. a place where peas, chickpeas are grown."

"The village is mentioned in Ottoman-Turkish tax documents under the names Mazarach and Delvino (1570), Mazaraj and Mazarach (1576). In a Russian triverst map from 1878 it is marked as Mazarachevo."

I am not Slavic, I don't drink or get drunk. Thanks for the concern.

I was not attacking you personally, just pointing out some of those explanations are fishy and forced. I hope you can dig up any census info on the region, preferably from Bulgarian empire times if any exists.

I have seen this type of explanation all my life, it is done by Albanians for all sorts of toponyms, even Slavic ones, forcing meaning with random word combinations such as grave-tree. On the face value alone such explanations are not satisfactory, nor is the fact that is being explained by an alien language(Turkish).

Slavic toponyms are very uniform, they match from Slavic country to Slavic country and the explanations are self evident. There is a anomaly in the Serbian-Bulgarian border region. It might not mean anything for us Albanians, but no one really looked into the matter from the perspective of a possible early Albanian homeland. Albanians for example used to claim Gjakova was a Albanian toponym from an Albanian named Jakov. However this toponym occurs in other Slavic lands. The moral of the story, Slavic toponyms are very recurring and you should be able to find parallel examples in other countries and within your own as well. When you have to do mental gymnastics to come up with a explanation, that's a sign you're going the wrong way.
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/UP/14/Dyakove.html

It is obvious from the word construct that Mazarachevo comes from Mazarach, because evo is just a Slavic suffix that's commonly used. You can go by the Romanian explanation, but the Albanian one is much more closer because of the K sound at the end. In Romania there's 3 settlements, none have the k sound, Mazararul, Mazaroi, Mazararu. I looked at various Turkish countries(Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, and Kazakhstan), all have nothing expect Kazakhstan that had one toponym called Mazarka. I'm chuckling because it was obvious as soon as I read grave tree, this was Albanian level clownery.

Here is the Albanian explanation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazreku

And this quote during Ottoman expansion into Epirus:
"In 1380, Thomas made an offensive with the help of Turks reaching up to the upper Kalamas River, where however, the Albanians, in particular the tribe of Mazaraki held their defensive position and defeated again Thomas."

Mazaraku the name itself is speculated to come from Albanian Maz for horse/pony and the clans or tribes with such name engaged in horse breeding and riding.

 

[mount123]

Here is another, Mazarachevo.

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/45/Mazarachevo.html

Again not found elsewhere in Bulgaria, Macedonia or Bosnia. There is one settlement Mazaric in Presevo valley, but is probably an Ottoman period rather than an old toponym and another one in northern Montenegro. It is very likely related to Mazareku, a very common Albanian clan name. The region of Chameria, around the Kalamas river had settled the Mazaraki that resisted Thomas the Serbian successfully.
This toponym is associated with Albanian migrations during the middle ages in Greece.
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/GR/a/M/a/z/

Interesting, Paleo. Eastwards of the region I'm from there are Mazreku people who have settled there after being expelled from their native soil in Eastern Serbia near the Bulgarian border in 1877/1878, something our Slavic neighbors might want to read about. Mazareku apo Mazreku have been historically attested in that region since long time ago, as we see with Mazarek who was an Albanian nobleman and general in the service of the Serbian Despotate, with the title of Vojvoda or the other example you've given.

The Mazreku similar to other Albanian tribes have been quite widespread geographically, though today they are mostly centered in Prizren and the surroundings, I think (some might want to correct me on this). Some have actually tested in the Albanian DNA/Rrenjet project, you might also want to look that up.