Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Salento]

In relation to Antiquity, when you read the name Calabria, it might be referring to Salento instead.

 

[Dushman]

… not sure if it applies, … it can get confusing:

… the name Calabria was originally given to the Adriatic coast of the Salento peninsula in modern Apulia.

In the late first century BC this name came to extend to the entirety of the Salento, when the Roman emperor Augustus divided Italy into regions.

The whole region of Apulia received the name Regio II Apulia et Calabria.
By this time modern Calabria was still known as Bruttium …

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria#Etymology

Yep, I was talking about the Calabri of Apulia not the modern territory known as Calabria. Several Italian tribes seem to have had identical or very similar
names of tribes coming from the Eastern Adriatic like the Calabri/Galabri, Apuli, Siculotae, Sardi/Sardeates, Chonians/Chaonians, perhaps even Iagypians from Iapodes.

That?s why I?m against the theories of splitting hairs we?re all a product of several related migrating tribes who mixed with the local (many times related) tribes.

As a result, I see the ancient languages of certain regions as colour gradients rather than fixed differentiated languages. Pretty sure the Celtic spoken by the Iceni wasn?t the same as that of the Boi and Taurisci.

But linguists gotta eat too so they?re willing to fill up 300 pages with theories that despite the fact that out of the few surviving Illyrian words, many/most have Albanian cognates, as well as cognates with few Messapic, Epirotic, Macedonian, Daco-Thracian, and even Italic.

How can 1 say Albanian isn?t Illyrian? What?s Illyrian? Southern Illyrian? Illyrian of the ?proprie dicti?? Dalmatian? Pannonian? Liburnian/Venetic?

Why does a toponymy or sound shift (sk-) suffices to refute the theory that Albanian wasn?t spoken in Albania up to a certain century?

 

[Johane Derite]

"We have to reckon with a distinct, non-Albanian population occupying the lowland plains of the Albanian Adriatic coast."


Martin Huld

 

[Johane Derite]

Huld dates the loans from "Makedonian" Greek to the fifth century.


The loan "angari" [corvee: forced labour exacted in lieu of taxes, unpaid labour owed by a vassal to his feudal lord] is especially interesting.


Were Proto-Albanians at some point vassals of Macedonians?

 

[torzio]

Huld dates the loans from "Makedonian" Greek to the fifth century.


The loan "angari" [corvee: forced labour exacted in lieu of taxes, unpaid labour owed by a vassal to his feudal lord] is especially interesting.


Were Proto-Albanians at some point vassals of Macedonians?

One needs to clarify how much Greek was in the makedonian language at that present time ...................I remember that philip and his son Alexander army members knew no Greek and spoke pure makedonian, while the "royals" spoke both

 

[Dushman]

your map is at the time of the end of the The Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects
you see the Doric spartans coming out of Taranto ............losing battles to the messapics
Apulia was settled by Daunians, Peucetians and Messapics from 1000BC ...................see the recent paper ......................they had a closed society only starting to open up after commemcing their own pottery circa 400BC ..........they where even closed to their Samnite neighbours,

Excuse me, what?s your contribution to this topic? Who asked you about random historical facts on Messapians and Daunians?

You're not knowledgeable neither in Albanian nor languages/linguistics.

If we want to read random Wikipedia history pages we can do that ourselves.

 

[Johane Derite]

In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


-Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
-North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
-Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
-The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis


Albanian Y-DNA does suggest a late antiquity bottleneck within this 300-900AD period, interestingly enough.

 

[Dushman]

Proto-Albanians migrating from 300-600 AD is downright autistic. If by 600 the dialects were split, the Dardanian language could not have given birth to 2 such different dialects already. It?s so ridiculous to assume such things. We?ve seen how much regional dialects have changed in 300 years and it?s almost negligible except some new words and standardization. But this Matzinger ?knows? that Dardanian gave birth to North and South Albanian.

There?s a lack of Roman records doing that and the dialects were already split in Shkumbin (an (s)k -> k -> shk like Shkodra).

Albanopolis as a toponym predates this linguists autistic conclusion but at least 200 years. An entire ?migrating people? picked up some random city?s name and used it as their own? Super autistic.

These ?Albanian nomads? wiped out the Latinized locals entirely? Or did they assimilate them with their superior shepherd culture? You gotta be retarded to throw such theories with such confidence. Referring to the linguists not you Johane. You?re just a trusting reader.

Another problem is that the Albanians were so numerous that they were the majority in Dardania, Montenegro, Albania, Epirus, with presence even further South of Epirus, South Dalmatia, Bosnia. There must have been so many that they became the majority in so many Greek regions and remained so numerous even after massive assimilation by Slavs and massive migrations to Turkey where millions settled.

Yes, these Dardanians moved Southward just like every single Albanian, but they didn?t bring an alien language, they merely influenced Gheg and Northern Tosk few hundred years later from the proposed 300-900 period.

 

[Excine]

Ultimately, I assert that linguistic work will always be viewed as speculative and may never advance in the future. I believe that the only way to truly assist in paving the path to our origins is through ancient DNA samples, which are rather expensive, but imagine a day when we have several ancient profiles in Albania, Montenegro & Kosovo.

 

[Johane Derite]

Albanian Y-dna already told us years ago now that there was an expansion from this period. This is known.Check the tmrcas of Albanian Z2705. The tmrca is ~1700-1500 for the main branches that Albanians belong to. That is one man that lived 1700-1500 years ago that was speaking proto-Albanian. A Dardanian man.

Sc - Shk in Shkodra and Scampis -> Shkumbin is literally a late antiquity feature of Albanian, meaning Albanians learnt these toponyms in Late antiquity.

The difference from Tosk and Gheg is not as big as the difference between French and Spanish or French and Italian, which are both languages that evolved from Latin in late antiquity, the same time as argued break up of common proto-Albanian.

For all linguists, it is clear that both Gege and Tosk come from a relatively recent ancestor. This is simply the consensus of all linguists, you have no authority or knowledge about what you are talking about in this aspect.

The texts of Buzuku for example in Old Gege and those of Matrenga in Old Tosk, are way more similar than today Gege and Tosk are today. There has been a great difference in Gegë dialects since the time of Buzuku, so what you said is just a fiction yet again.

Sorry

 

[Dushman]

Albanian Y-DNA already told us that Ghegs and Tosks have their own specific subclades and that Tosks do not derive from Ghegs or Dardanians. There was an influx from North to South, just like Tosks gave birth to literally millions of Epirots, Aetolians, Thessalians, Arvanites, Arbereshe, Albanians in Turkey, in Thrace, Bulgaria, and even Ukraine. Numerous different subclades from those found in Kosovo.

Expansions, bottlenecks, and population booms happened literally in every single region of the world. Every single country (including countries much bigger than Albania) descend from a relatively small population 2000 years ago. Study the Y-DNA of other countries, then talk about 90 Albanians who lived in 200 AD. That?s not how it works, neighbour. Hundreds of male lineages died or migrated in the last 2000 years while others were lucky. It?s a human phenomenon not an Albanian ethnogenesis problem.

The Buzuku comment shows that you?re not fluent in Albanian and you think Buzuku?s dialect is the standard exclusive Old Gheg. You?re so uninformed that you don?t know that Buzuku?s dialect is still spoken in the area he originated with minor and a natural evolution in the past 500 years. That dialect is the lowland and Coastal North-West Albanian that to this day is different from the newcoming Malesor dialect of Montenegro and extreme North West Albania, which came from further North (North Montenegro, Bosnia, Southern Croatia area), so let?s call it possibly a Southern Dalmatian one.

Pretty sure you know that the Malsor tribes had a recent cultural connection with the area of Bosnia and Croatia, as well as I?m pretty sure you have read the mentioning of the Albanian language in Ragusa/Dubrovnik hinterland. Perhaps something you didn?t know is that Albanian surnames made up to 20-25% of Vlach surnames in Northern Croatia, a population which originated in nearby Bosnia. Your legendary Dardanians seem to have been 10 million already and filled up every empty Balkan region. So much logic behind your theories.

So, to conclude with Buzuku, his dialect was one of the many so-called medieval Gheg dialects, and that is why I told you that his ?Gheg? is a Western Albanoid dialect that existed all the way from Southern Dalmatia (Coastal Montenegro) down to Arta (in South Epirus), which different features from the Eastern dialects that penetrated Albania later on and shaped the modern Albanian dialects, ad well as dividing North-Western ?Gheg? from the speech of Durres region, Lab, and Cham, all related to each other.

Your sc- in Shkodra is pure speculation because you can?t know from Latin or Greek if it was Scodra or Shcodra/Shkodra as they didn?t have the ?sh? sound which the Italian developed later, where sk became sc (pronounced sh), so one wonders similarly to your assumptions why Italians don?t call it Sciodra (Shodra) but rather Scutari (a new name), whereas the locals called it Scudra/Shkudra or Scuodra in their so-called Dalmatian language, an o > uo feature that Dalmatian shares with North West Gheg among others.

Plus, Albanian is more connected to Western Vulgar Latin than Eastern, making the Dinaric Alps rather than the lowland Dardania/Moesia as a urheimat, the latter being highly Latinized as indicated by enough evidence including the Roman officials/emperors, the proximity to Vlachs in Dardania/Moesia, and it?s modern dialects lack of variations.

Other than that, one super autistic claim from those authors was the map/spreading area of the non-Albanian non-Illyrian ?Adriatic tribesmen?. This is already a Star Trek scenario pulled out of their bottoms.

 

[Johane Derite]

Plus, Albanian is more connected to Western Vulgar Latin than Eastern, making the Dinaric Alps rather than the lowland Dardania/Moesia as a urheimat, the latter being highly Latinized as indicated by enough evidence including the Roman officials/emperors, the proximity to Vlachs in Dardania/Moesia, and it�s modern dialects lack of variations.

Albanian is not more connected to Western Vulgar Latin than Eastern. It is almost entirely of the Eastern variety with a few strains of the western, this is one of the main reasons for this argument. How can you be so wrong and so moronically confident about it I don't understand.

Likewise you still don't even understand what you are arguing about Scodra. The only "autist" is you. You are chimping out like a child.

Buzuku's dialect is spoken nowhere today, this is just total idiotic nonsense. No Albanian even from north west regions, says "ëndiglonj" today. Seriously go spam some other thread.

 

[torzio]

Excuse me, what�s your contribution to this topic? Who asked you about random historical facts on Messapians and Daunians?

You're not knowledgeable neither in Albanian nor languages/linguistics.

If we want to read random Wikipedia history pages we can do that ourselves.

This is a reply from someone who has not read posts and is beaten in his theories of the albanian language

 

[Johane Derite]

In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


-Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
-North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
-Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
-The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis


Albanian Y-DNA does suggest a late antiquity bottleneck within this 300-900AD period, interestingly enough.

This is the link to the full paper for whoever is curious:

https://www.albanologie.uni-muenche...matzinger_nov_2016/muenchen_2_ethnogenese.pdf

 

[Dushman]

Albanian is not more connected to Western Vulgar Latin than Eastern. It is almost entirely of the Eastern variety with a few strains of the western, this is one of the main reasons for this argument. How can you be so wrong and so moronically confident about it I don't understand.

Likewise you still don't even understand what you are arguing about Scodra. The only "autist" is you. You are chimping out like a child.

Buzuku's dialect is spoken nowhere today, this is just total idiotic nonsense. No Albanian even from north west regions, says "ëndiglonj" today. Seriously go spam some other thread.

Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly fewer in number than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact with Western Romance regions than with Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.

There you go, non-Albanian speaking Ottoman.

Chams said ndiglo, and I personally (together with other North West Albanians) say ndig?jo, with the lj becoming j which is the natural evolution of Albanian.

North Westerners used ?isht? (and still use) together with Labs, Chams, Arvanites, and Arbereshe, while Kosovo never used it, having ??sht? and ???. Then North West highland dialects must have received the ?nsht and ? as opposed to the more archaic ?isht?, showing an East-West difference in both Gheg and Tosk, with the Westerners (both Gheg and Tosk speakers) having common archaic features shared between themselves.

Kosovo dialect lacks the variations of North Albania and Montenegro because it?s an Ottoman mediated expansion. Our clans? names became your dominant surnames with people carrying Kelmendi, Shala, Krasniqi, Hoti, Thaci, Berisha, Gashi.

Thus your autistic theory suggests that Proto-Albanians completely abandoned Dardania and returned during the Ottoman occupation again.

Excluding the area of Montenegro and around as a possible source of Proto-Albanian is another weakness of these autistic theories that people like you support in order to justify your war with Serbia and independence on the expense of other Proto-Albanians who were locals in Praevalitana, Epirus Nova, and Epirus Vetus. Albanians are mentioned in Epirus Vetus since the 11th century as allies of the Normans.

300-900 AD is the Albanian migration period he says. What about 2nd and 1st century BC Latin words? How can Dardanians have them when they were subdued 200 years later after the South Illyrians and Epirotes, then following with the Illyrii proprie dicti, and so on.

It?s the Illyrii proprie dicti (North Albania, Montenegro) and Epirotes (especially Chaonians) that received these early Latin as well as Doric Greek influences. But for some autistic conspiracy theory reason with 0 texts and 0 evidence they passed these words as a second hand market to the Proto-Albanians in Dardania.

Oh, and the Doric Greek was specifically the mostly unattested Makedonian but not Epirotic, Aetolian, or Phocis dialect. Very convenient theories from the guy (Matzinger) that changes his mind every couple of years.

 

[Dushman]

This is a reply from someone who has not read posts and is beaten in his theories of the albanian language

This is a reply from someone who?s always ridiculed and ignored in every single thread and avoided even by the Italians themselves because they?re embarrassed of your claims. You?re the Italian version of Yetos the Greek who spams threads with unrelated myths and stories like a parrot and nobody even bothers to discuss with you. Do us a favour and go to the Italian language topic, a language which you don?t even speak.

 

[Johane Derite]

Oh, and the Doric Greek was specifically the mostly unattested Makedonian but not Epirotic, Aetolian, or Phocis dialect. Very convenient theories from the guy (Matzinger) that changes his mind every couple of years.

That was the paper by Martin Huld. Yet again you demonstrate that you don't even have a basic reading comprehension. This is why you are so hyper emotional and triggered, and trying to make personal insults since the beginning.

 

[Johane Derite]

Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly fewer in number than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact with Western Romance regions than with Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.

There you go, non-Albanian speaking Ottoman.

Hilarious. Your source is the wikipedia page for Albanian-Romanian linguistic relationship. Literally every linguist knows that Albanian has almost all latin features from the eastern strain. It is just totally false to even attempt to claim that and it is laughable.

This theory by Mihaescu of a non-West non-East stratum of Latin was utterly demolished and rejected ages ago.

Matzinger has a paper on this so called "Via Egnatia" latin strain. Yet again you fail.

 

[Johane Derite]

300-900 AD is the Albanian migration period he says. What about 2nd and 1st century BC Latin words? How can Dardanians have them when they were subdued 200 years later after the South Illyrians and Epirotes, then following with the Illyrii proprie dicti, and so on.

It�s the Illyrii proprie dicti (North Albania, Montenegro) and Epirotes (especially Chaonians) that received these early Latin as well as Doric Greek influences. But for some autistic conspiracy theory reason with 0 texts and 0 evidence they passed these words as a second hand market to the Proto-Albanians in Dardania.

This was explained to your peanut brain twice already.

Firstly: Dardanians required Roman permission to import salt into their own territory in 167 BC. This means that Dardanians were in contact with Romans already since the earliest moment of latin presence in the Balkans.

Secondly: The earliest phase of Latin laons in Albanian is the sparsest, it is the later middle phase which has the most, so the contacts with proto-Albanian and latin in the early phase were not intense.

 

[Johane Derite]

Chams said ndiglo, and I personally (together with other North West Albanians) say ndig�jo, with the lj becoming j which is the natural evolution of Albanian.

Wow, the genius at work yet again.

So you are using the Cham ndiglo as being the closest to Buzuku's "ëndiglonj" to argue that Gegë and Tosk are so different that they cannot have come from the same single ancestor ~1700 years ago? Wow, they are soo different, this must be such an ancient separation...

Also you are using "ndigjo" to argue that Northwest Gegë is the same today as Buzuku's Gegë? The lost of the preceding ë- vowel in Gegë compared to Old Gegë, the palatilization of gl -> gj and kl -> q, and the loss of the -nj is also another change that has happened since then.

Yet again instead of being humble and trying to learn why all the linguists are coming to the same conclusion, you have a hissy fit like a little child. Like the pathetic barbarian you are.