Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Arbanoi]

Check this out:

You are obviously that J2b2-L283 Albanian troll Bruzmi obsessed with making E-V13 elsewhere not present, or if present trying to explain by Middle Age expansion.

So, you are not even worth of paying attention too. I don't even know how Riverman has nerves with you, or how he doesn't see the scam on you guys.

I'm E-V13, not J-L283; nor am I Bruzmi

Basically anyone who does not agree with this nutcase and some others here is a sock of someone or not E-V13. According to this dude, Proto-Albanians were E-V13 , possibly from Central/Eastern Balkans / Daco-Thracians, anyone who suggests anything else is a sock. Mindblowing what a nut case this guy actually is.

And you are asking me what is my problem here ?

How many people I have seen this guy accuse of being a sock is mind blowing. His buddy spams the same theories about Matzinger over and over again. They could almost be the same person, of course I am not a lowlife to accuse people of such. His other buddy 'ihype' is another E-V13 that has no compelling arguments or facts.

 

[Jovialis]

I am Albanian first and foremost. And that's exactly my problem. They are accusing me of being sock of enter_tain because I don't agree that proto-Albanians = E-V13 . Does it really look like I am a sock of this person dude ?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-Imperial-Admixture/page2?p=660082#post660082 ,

This same dude that is accusing people of being socks (Hawk and some others) is a person that has pushed E-V13 is some kind of proto-Albanian marker , anyone who doesn't agree with him or them is a sock of someone or they are not E-V13 but apparently some other Y-DNA. Bruzmi, the guy who is E-V13, they claim is apparently J2b2-L283. This Hawk guy is literally nuts. Some E-V13 supremacist dude like the OP that argues for theories that have no compelling evidence.

And what exactly is your problem that you can't see my point of view here ? Nowhere did I single out Albanians , mainly talking about some Albanians on this forum.

You can ban whatever you want, I don't care much about your forum dude, I go to Anthrogenica or other forums. Your forum doesn't allow much free speech, filled with admins who ban anyone that opposes their view.

Blah, blah, blah, muh freedom of speech!

I don't give a crap what you believe. But don't come here and make blanket statements about swaths of our membership. DUDE.

 

[Arbanoi]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page28?p=638513&viewfull=1#post638513

Here he accuses the same guy of being a sock from some time ago. this enter_tain guy is clearly a guy I don't agree with yet apparently I am his sock

The reality is most Kosovars (not all) are descendants of Gegs who moved there in the last few hundred years. Their dialect is an offshoot of Geg. Geg/Tosk on the other hand split 1500 years ago. My point is that 50% in Kosovars is a recent genetic bottleneck that happened in the last few hundred years. Proto-Albanians were not 50% EV-13.

In reality ancient Albanians/southern Illyrians were probably like 10-20% EV-13, and northern Illyrians probably like 0-10%. EV-13 is just a common marker in the Balkans that ALL southern Balkan populations (Greeks, southern Illyrians, Thracians, Paioenians) would have had.

Any evidence to back it up that most people moved in ? Towns and areas in Kosovo that have been Albanian since like the 1500's . According to you these Albanians did not have children ? Most families did not live in the same are for more than 200 years and came from somewhere else, so your point is invalid anyway since Y-DNA or tribal names don't really prove much, older inhabitants could of been replaced by new inhabitants, be it Serb or Albanian. This is what happened during wars, massacres or mass expulsion such as expulsion of Albanians from Toplica region etc when they settled Kosovo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians,_1877–1878

Mostly North-Eastern Albania that was historically connected to Kosovo and where some people came from like Gashi, Krasniqi, Morina before Albania's borders were created they were more or less the same area with Kosovo.

E-V13 isn't just common in Kosovars, it's quite common marker in Albania too. I don't know why you keep quoting old out dated Y-DNA studies. You seem to have quite some complexes for this Y-DNA.

 

[Arbanoi]

By the way, I made a thread a few months ago, predicting ancient Greek/Albanian autosomal DNA. I said they would be identical to Myceneans. Guess what? The Greeks 100% were.



Just a matter of time before these clownish statements get brought to light.

The modern Albos/Greeks circled in pink are literally just partly Slavicized Myceneans.

And you pretty much got debunked when it comes to that theory dude, nowhere do Southern Illyrians cluster like Myceaneans

These are samples from Croatia from Roman period

These are Southern Illyrians:

Where do you see these samples cluster like Myceaneans ? Iron Ag Thracians are more like Myceaneans.






Albanian national awakening occurred in Kosovo and not Albania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Prizren ,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912 , there are even Y-DNA shared with Albanian and Romanian speakers


From Malcolm:

''Schramm's theory fails, therefore; and in so doing it performs a signal service. Thanks to Schramm, the Thracians can now be eliminated from these enquiries. His research into Nicetas's activities does indeed show that the Bessi received their Christianity, so to speak, in translation; this must force us to conclude that the Albanians, who received theirs in the original Latin, cannot be identified with the Bessi. The language of the Bessi must eventually have perished. Since the Bessi were the only Thracian tribe known to have kept their language as late as the sixth century (and Byzantine sources are naturally more detailed on the Thracian areas, which for them were closer to home, than on the Illyrian ones), it is impossible to find any other Thracian candidates. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro.''



Kosova was held by Bushati family during Ottoman period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashalik_of_Scutari


Towns and regions in Kosova that have been Albanian since like 1500's. Any evidence these were all immigrants from Albania ? I am not talking about later tribal migrations.

 

[Arbanoi]

Towns and regions in Kosova that have been Albanian since like 1500's. Any evidence these were all immigrants from Albania ? I am not talking about later tribal migrations.

Most of these were mainly immigrants around the mountains of Kosovo also such as Gashi, Krasniqi, Morina etc. We are talking about people here who moved 30km-50km , yes quite the immigration lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlands_of_Gjakova

 

[Arbanoi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Has_(region) , There are even regions that are both part of North-East Albania and Western Kosovo

 

[enter_tain]

And you pretty much got debunked when it comes to that theory dude, nowhere do Southern Illyrians cluster like Myceaneans

These are samples from Croatia from Roman period

These are Southern Illyrians:

Where do you see these samples cluster like Myceaneans ? Iron Ag Thracians are more like Myceaneans.






Albanian national awakening occurred in Kosovo and not Albania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Prizren ,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912 , there are even Y-DNA shared with Albanian and Romanian speakers


From Malcolm:

''Schramm's theory fails, therefore; and in so doing it performs a signal service. Thanks to Schramm, the Thracians can now be eliminated from these enquiries. His research into Nicetas's activities does indeed show that the Bessi received their Christianity, so to speak, in translation; this must force us to conclude that the Albanians, who received theirs in the original Latin, cannot be identified with the Bessi. The language of the Bessi must eventually have perished. Since the Bessi were the only Thracian tribe known to have kept their language as late as the sixth century (and Byzantine sources are naturally more detailed on the Thracian areas, which for them were closer to home, than on the Illyrian ones), it is impossible to find any other Thracian candidates. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro.''



Kosova was held by Bushati family during Ottoman period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashalik_of_Scutari


Towns and regions in Kosova that have been Albanian since like 1500's. Any evidence these were all immigrants from Albania ? I am not talking about later tribal migrations.

Go read the original post and read what I said. I said "Mycenean-like" as in high-EEF. I was saying southern Illyrians would plot more south of northern Illyrians because they'd have more EEF, and I was proven right.

I never said Illyrians are/descend from Myceneans. In fact I've made clear that I think Albanian and Greek are not closely related.

 

[enter_tain]

@Albanoi

You don't realize some clowns here kept saying Albanians aren't Illyrian, because Croatian Illyrians were plotting too north. It was exactly these "E-V13 people". Every year they have a new theory to discredit Illyrian -> Albanian.

And I made that thread to show that southern Illyrians would plot higher EEF/more south. That's why I said "Mycenean-like".

"If you look at Croatian IA and Helladic MBA they are very similar and more Eastern-European like. This is obviously less EEF-admixed populations. When they got to the Balkans, they mixed with EEF-heavy populations, and became more "Mycenean-like".

I used "Mycenean-like" to describe a more southern shifted Balkan population, not to say Illyrians come from Myceneans. I've made clear that I think Pre-Proto-Albanian is closely related to Germanic, not Greek.

 

[Jovialis]

Go read the original post and read what I said. I said "Mycenean-like" as in high-EEF. I was saying southern Illyrians would plot more south of northern Illyrians because they'd have more EEF, and I was proven right.

I never said Illyrians are/descend from Myceneans. In fact I've made clear that I think Albanian and Greek are not closely related.

I'd like to make a small correction to the statement Mycenean-like is high-EEF.

EEF is more indicative of Anatolia_N + a minority component of WHG

Mycenaeans were Minoan/Greece_N-like i.e. Anatolia_N + a minority component of CHG; which is in addition to about 10% Steppe.

 

[Angela]

I'd like to make a small correction to the statement Mycenean-like is high-EEF.

EEF is more indicative of Anatolia_N + a minority component of WHG

Mycenaeans were Minoan/Greece_N-like i.e. Anatolia_N + a minority component of CHG; which is in addition to about 10% Steppe.

Do you get the feeling some people who post on this site don't read the papers, or if they read them don't understand them?

 

[Arbanoi]

Yeah, keep polluting these threads with sock puppet accounts like Illyria and co. dear self-proclaimed "Aryan".

Congrats Hawk, you were right this guy is indeed behind puppet accounts like "Illyria" and many others.

Here in this quoted post above they are accusing ''Illyria'' of being a sock of enter_tain


Apparently George Bush is a sock on this forum too.

 

[enter_tain]

I'd like to make a small correction to the statement Mycenean-like is high-EEF.

EEF is more indicative of Anatolia_N + a minority component of WHG

Mycenaeans were Minoan/Greece_N-like i.e. Anatolia_N + a minority component of CHG; which is in addition to about 10% Steppe.

I am aware, but it's still mostly EEF.

 

[Arbanoi]

Yes I have seen Maciamo years ago and I know the percentages well.
E-V13 became a main line in Albania after or during the 10th century. Right when Arbanasi appears in historical documents. What a coincidence.
As for E-V13 in Southwest Slavs how do know that this line was not picked by pagans Slavs before comming to Illyria and later it got an increase with some assimilated Albanians in Montenegro?

Just to bump up your posts a bit here my lil G: So far there is no E-V13 in medieval or post medieval Albania. Nothing suggests this is a proto Thracian or proto Dacian marker or any marker related to the steppes for that matter , found also outside Thracia. In Thracia it's mainly an Iron Age phenomenon + R1a z93. How do you explain that Albanian could of never come from Thracian or Dacian ?

''Many of the village names in ancient Thracia were composite, with the words -para (-phara, -pera, -parn, etc.) ‘a village’, -bria ‘a town’ and -diza (-disza, -dizos) ‘a fortress’ as a second element



Such names are not to be found in Dacia proper (on the northern side of the Danube), in Dobrudzha and most of Northern Bulgaria except its southern eras, where there were seven such names: Mitzipara, Longinopara, Agatapara, Beripara, Kistidizos, Maskiobria, *Alaaibria. The Dacian linguistic area is characterized with composite names ending in -dava (-deva, -daua, -daba, etc.) ‘a town’. ''


https://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_8.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dacian_names
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...race_and_Dacia



'' Otherwise, the only evidence available consists of proper names: place-names, personal names and tribal names, preserved in Latin or Greek inscriptions and the works of ancient historians. There are several thousand such names altogether; but the difficulties of interpretation are immense. Trying to extract a language from such evidence is rather like some linguists of the distant future trying to work out the true nature of the English language on the basis of 'Edinburgh', 'Lancaster', 'Whitby', 'Grosvenor', 'Gladstone', 'Victoria' and 'Disraeli'. Place-names are often the remnants of an earlier language; personal names may reflect cultural influences (it has been observed that if future linguists knew only the names 'Carlo' and 'Lodovico', they would assume that the Italian language was a type of German); and in any case we have no reason to suppose that the ancient Balkans were any less of a linguistic hotchpotch than they have been for most of the rest of their history. [40] On balance, there are more examples of plausible links between Illyrian names and Albanian words than there are in the case of Thracian (though there are some of both, and some names were common to the two ancient languages). Most of these relate to place-names in the area of central and northern Albania, such as the river Mat (Alb.: mat, river-bank) or the town of Ulqin or Ulcinium (Alb.: ujk or ulk, wolf), or indeed the early name for the Kosovo area, 'Dardania' (Alb.: dardhe, pear). [41]

The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian. [42]

Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Iranian and Latin for 'a hundred'.) Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too - in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all.

And in any case, it is increasingly apparent that the whole satem/centum classification system does not correspond to the fundamental distinguishing features of the Indo-European languages: it may be the linguists' equivalent of one of those classifications of mammals by eighteenth-century biologists, which modern scientists have had to discard. [46] Another technical (and much more speculative) argument for identifying early Albanian with Thracian was put forward by the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev, who divided Thracian into two languages, one north-western, the other south-eastern, and argued on the basis of consonantal changes that Albanian must have come from the north-western one. But his arguments (at least in relation to the supposed Albanian connection) have been thoroughly dismantled by other scholars. [47]
''



Care to explain some of these parts and why they are totally absent toponyms in modern Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania etc ?



Bessi could of never possibly been ancestor of Albanian btw.

 

[Arbanoi]

Jesus Hawk, you really are paranoid - maybe even borderline schizophrenic. Talking about Haplogroup personality traits now. Just over a page ago you were insinuating, again, how some of us associated with the Albo projects have biases toward V13.

Leave that sh*t at home man and stop ruining every freaking thread.

I'm just bumping some of these posts up so the Admin here knows what's up. This 'Hawk' dude and some others even accused the Albanian Y-DNA project of having bias towards E-V13. Apparently they tested the same families

 

[Arbanoi]

I'll post this here as well;

"While these major population movements can be traced in recorded sources, the much more common internal migrations of smaller groups (extended families) were barely noted in Ottoman sources. They are attested in reports of local Catholic clergymen to the Congregatio de propaganda fide (established in Rome in 1622), especially when people were moving towards the Adriatic coast where the Catholic Church had preserved parts of its organizational net-work. One has to distinguish between seasonal migration of herdsmen between summer and winter pastures, and permanent emigration. The latter was prompted by economic pressure (bad harvests) and often by blood feuds, which forced people to leave because they felt threatened by acts of revenge. Most of these minor movements originated in the mountains of central and northern Albania and were directed both to the West (Adriatic coast) and the east (Kosovo, western Macedonia). The multi-layered Albanian dialects in western Macedonia demonstrate that Albanians had immigrated in different stages into an area that was inhabited by Albanians since antiquity. In Kosovo, the Albanian population consisted equally of resident Albanians and newcomers from central and northern Albania."

- The Routledge Handbook of Balkan and Southeast Europe

Indeed, this is exactly what I'm saying too.


Anyway, enough bumping this thread and reading some funny old posts.

 

[Arbanoi]

This thread is a riot. I can understand Greeks and ex-Yugoslavians making up random nonsense about the Albanians. That's always happened.

But there's some weird Kosovars who want to claim a "Dardanian" legacy and get offended when you point out that their language and most of their DNA comes from Albania 300 years ago. This is what community projects like Rrenjet studies were created for and has pointed out

https://youtu.be/ng5DUbAZtPY?t=1627

They even mention in the video that people in Kosovo are not going to like this Sorry to break it to you all, but you're for the most part no different than any other northern Albanian. Any weird %Y-DNA ratios are a recent genetic bottleneck, not because of the "Dardanians" or "Thracians" or whatever.

300 years ago ? Western Kosovo was Albanian way before that. Actually always lived some Albanians and Vlachs there and in Macedonia + Montenegro. It was invaded like Albania. You think Albania has been some kind of pure Albanian territory ? It's borders were merely created in 1912, people survived there thanks to it's mountains. North-Eastern Albania / Western Kosovo were more or less the same areas. Eastern Kosovo merely gained Albanian majority after expulsion of Albanians from Toplica who were indeed from the Malsi. Since you mention Rrenjet, this is also from Rrenjet:

Dy shqiptarë dhe një rumun kanë një lidhje rreth 1000-1200 vjeçare nën J-Y191359. Përsëri shfaqet një lidhje e mundshme me pjesën qendrore dhe veri-lindore të Ballkanit, në këtë rast llogaritur nga periudha e Mesjetës.
Si për J-Y22894, ashtu edhe për J-Y191359, ka mundësi që lidhjet me Rumaninë të përfaqësojnë marrëdhëniet mesjetare mes paraardhësve të shqiptarve, dhe atyre të vllehëve dhe rumunëve. Me diversitetin dhe dendësinë verilindore mes shqiptarëve, me rezultate nga Rumania dhe vende të tjera ku ka gjurmë të ngulimeve vllehe por edhe arbërore, si dhe me vjetërsinë mesjetare të J-Y191359, të dhënat e para nga këto nëndegë përputhen me përfundimet e disa teorive gjuhësore mbi kontaktet mes shqiptarëve dhe vllehëve e rumunëve (Malcolm, 1998; Illyés, 1988). Sipas Malcolm, këto kontakte janë përqendruar pikërisht në trevën e Dardanisë (1998). Mundet që këto linja të jenë vërtetë pasardhëse të popujve të lashtë ballkanik, që mbijetuan, pjesërisht të latinizuar, deri në ditët e sotme. Zhvillimi i mëtejshëm filogjenetik i tyre përmes testeve të thelluara do të jetë me shumë interes për të vlerësuar me siguri më të lartë vazhdimësinë e tyre historike në Dardani dhe më gjerë.

https://rrenjet.com/j-z631/


Albanoi theory certainly doesn't contradict Dardanian theory or whatever theory. Just some name adopted by a bunch of Illyrian tribes.


What is exactly 'Albania' , what do you define as 'Albania' ? Just some state whose borders were created in 1912. During medieval period many areas did not even have Albanian speakers.

 

[Arbanoi]

Some dude who doesn't know a single thing about Kosovo's history is going to teach us about Albanians and what we don't like, yeah sure, Albanian national movement literally occured in Kosovo. Kosovo's identity is certainly not tied to Albania nor do many Kosovo Albanians look like people from Albania. Most of the history there is dominated by Albanians since like 1600's let alone 300 years. Albania's government like Zogu collaborated with Yugoslavs against Kosovo Albanians. Nevertheless, Couldn't give a rats ass where my ancestors came from 300 years ago, don't see how that is even relevant to modern politics or ancient origins. It is even claimed Romanians moved into modern Romanian territory.

Kosovo had a large Albanian population way before 300 years. And most of the ones who came from what is today Albania came mainly from North-Eastern parts 'Highlands of Gjakove' which funny enough includes the mountains of Western Kosovo like Morina, Gashi, Krasniqi etc. which was exactly part of the Dardani. One doesn't need to of inhabited the entire Dardani area to claim such an origin.

 

[Arbanoi]

One other way how to deduce is to check the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 levels at Serbs from Kosov and surroundings. And E-V13 is far more quite present among them than J2b2-L283.

Beside, Enchelei doesn't seem to have been related to Glasinac-Mat. Check their burial rite, cremation on a pyre, golden burial masks, xiphos swords with T shaped hilts.

When it comes to original inhabitants of Kosove lineages like Romanians, Vlachs, Aromanians etc should be studied and not just Serbs.


Also 300 years ago is like 18th century , who on earth believes there were no Albanians there before that ? All the demographics and history I have studied shows an Albanian majority in Western/Central Kosove in 17th century.

 

[Arbanoi]

Here is your 300 years ago theory:

''Kosovo Albanian Roman Catholic Bishop and philosopher Pjetër Bogdani returned to the Balkans in March 1686 and spent the next years promoting resistance to the armies of the Ottoman Empire, in particular in his native Kosovo. He and his vicar Toma Raspasani played a leading role in the pro-Austrian movement in Kosovo during the Great Turkish War.^[9] He contributed a force of 6,000 Albanian soldiers to the Austrian army which had arrived in Pristina and accompanied it to capture Prizren. There, however, he and much of his army were met by another equally formidable adversary, the plague. Bogdani returned to Pristina but succumbed to the disease there in 6 December 1689.^[10] His nephew, Gjergj Bogdani, reported in 1698 that his uncle's remains were later exhumed by Turkish and Tatar soldiers and fed to the dogs in the middle of the square in Pristina.Among the papers of Ludwig von Baden in Karlsruhe, there is a copy of an intercepted letter, in French, written by a secretary of the English embassy in Istanbul on 19 January 1690. It reported that the "Germans" in Kosovo had made contact with 20,000 Albanians who had turned their weapons against the Turks.<sup>[11]''




Antonio Bruni 1596:

''The Albanians live in part of Epirus,
Dardania, Macedonia and a corner of Illyria;
those who are on the Dalmatian side are Roman Catholics, while
the others, from Durres southwards, are all Orthodox. The language
of these people is very different from Slav and Greek. It may be Alan
or Gothic, brought there by Alaric, who stayed a long time
in Epirus when he was attacking the Roman Empire;
or indeed it may be the ancient language of the Macedonians-which seems
more likely, as it does not resemble the Slav language, which was perhaps the Goths
own language.''


https://academic.oup.com/book/37426/chapter-abstract/331513513?redirectedFrom=fulltext


''</sup>The Morinas were a tribe in the sense of a fis, i.e. a community that is aware of common blood ties and of common history reaching back to one male ancestor. According to oral tradition, they seem to trace a common origin with the Mirdita tribe.^[1] The Mirditans, Shala (tribe) and Shoshi (region) trace their origin to the Pashtrik mountain on the Kosovo-Albanian border, not far from Morina territory which leads to assume that while the Mirditans left their original home, the smaller Morinas stayed closer.<sup>[3][4]''


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morina_(tribe)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlands_of_Gjakova


Similar area where we got two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA around Cinamak</sup>

 

[enter_tain]

Don't even bother arguing with these people. For one reason or another Illyrian -> Albanian continuity hurts them.

First, Albanians weren't Illyrian because that J2B2-L283 Croatian Illyrian had a non-Z638 clade of J2B2. Then the Dalmatian sample came out with Z638.

Then, Albanians weren't Illyrian because Croatian Illyrians plotted too north in PCA. Then southern Illyrian samples came out.

Then, Albanians weren't Illyrian because no E-V13 was found. Then E-V13 was found.

Then, Albanians weren't Illyrian because no E-V13 was found in Iron Age Albania. But there was literally 0 E-V13 in either Medieval or Post-Medieval Albania, so Albanians must have come 100 years ago.

These people have outright descended into delusional conspiracy theories.