Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

Its clear that the Messapi proper zones like that of the Kalabri, at the heel of Italy, were the densest with Messapic inscriptions and had the oldest Messapic cities like Oria, etc, and its precisely this region which has a parallel with the
Balkan hinterland Dardanian tribe of the Galabroi.

Conversely, the northern regions get sparser and sparser in Messapic inscriptions and there are even ancient accounts of Dauni warring with Messapians, etc.

Its clear there were two flows of people and trade into Apulia, one from the strait of otranto, and one via the gargano. The Gargano favours the flow of j2b-l283 and dalmatian onomastics like Iapodes-Iapyges, Peuketi, etc, while i think the strait of otranto is the way that the kalabri/messapi proper entered, and brought their language, which was a half satem one, as opposed to the people that lived in cetina, which had trade across the adriative via gargano since MBA.

I doubt that the messapics entered Italy via cetina. I suspect the south kalabri regions will have more z2103 lineages that would have carried the main messapic dialect.
 
Excine said:
In the E-V13, J-L283 and Albanian origins thread, this same crowd has claimed that 1. Albanian E-V13 also comes from Slavs 2. E-V13 in Albanians comes from Vlachs 3. J-L283 is Celtic (Trojet can confirm many cases where one of them will try to insinuate a Celtic connection) 3. J-L283 is not Illyrian, it's something else 4. Albanians have high Slavic admixture and hundreds of other weekly cases where someone will try again and again to attack Albanians, to make weird claims about their main haplogroups, to claim that Albanians have high Slavic admixture. All of these matters have been answered and clarified by just a few people against all constant anti-Albanian attacks. They defended Cetina as Illyrian (credits to Trojet who first said it years ago) when some other people here were siding with others who simply didn't want Cetina to be Illyrian because they didn't J-L283 to be present in a major archaeological culture. If somebody here thinks that such people didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 because they care about the ethnogenesis of Illyrians, you simply can't understand what is happening around you.

They are the same people who some other Albanians (?) are attacking here daily just because they don't call their haplogroup the greatest that has ever existed or because they don't subscribe to the more and more ludicrous idea that tries to disconnect Albanians from Illyrians. Some people here prefer to just attack other Albanians simply out of spite because they stand up to anti-Albanian propaganda, while they themselves have never done a single thing even when they were in anthrogenica and weren't banned there.

What exactly does the crowd here think that they're doing? They're mostly parroting fringe theories, anti-Albanian propaganda (many anti-Albanian nationalists are very happy when they read Johane Derite, Paleo-Revenge and the "neo-Illyrian" (lol) ) and attacking Albanians who stand up to BS about us.
Do you guys even understand what 99% of Albanians would have to say about your behavior?
Click to expand...

You forgot the theory where J2-L283 was Sardinian, a theory heavily supported by Riverman and his clique back in 2017.
 
Johane Derite said:
Its clear that the Messapi proper zones like that of the Kalabri, at the heel of Italy, were the densest with Messapic inscriptions and had the oldest Messapic cities like Oria, etc, and its precisely this region which has a parallel with the
Balkan hinterland Dardanian tribe of the Galabroi.

Conversely, the northern regions get sparser and sparser in Messapic inscriptions and there are even ancient accounts of Dauni warring with Messapians, etc.

Its clear there were two flows of people and trade into Apulia, one from the strait of otranto, and one via the gargano. The Gargano favours the flow of j2b-l283 and dalmatian onomastics like Iapodes-Iapyges, Peuketi, etc, while i think the strait of otranto is the way that the kalabri/messapi proper entered, and brought their language, which was a half satem one, as opposed to the people that lived in cetina, which had trade across the adriative via gargano since MBA.

I doubt that the messapics entered Italy via cetina. I suspect the south kalabri regions will have more z2103 lineages that would have carried the main messapic dialect.
Click to expand...

You just abandoned Matzinger's idea so say it clearly. Of course, your "new" theory also makes no sense but say it properly as your own and admit that you disagree with Matzinger.

Matzinger says that Proto-Messapians went to Middle Dalmatia, fused with Cetina and then went to Italy. For him, there is just one migration and one language which was carried by this new population which was born out of the fusion of Proto-Messapians from Armenochori and local Dalmatian Cetina.

The migration didn't happen from south of Montenegro or north of Dalmatia so Messapic didn't move from Albania, but Matzinger's claim makes no sense because most of the Messapians and all Cetina so far are J-L283. I believe that R-Z2103 will be found but it's Illyrian, not something non-Illyrian as it is already found in northern Croatia before Cetina. So where are the Proto-Messapians that gave the language to Cetina? They're nowhere.

The Proto-Messapians are Cetina but because he doesn't want to directly link Proto-Illyrian to Proto-Albanian he claims that a related group to Proto-Albanians went to Dalmatia and "fused" with Cetina around 1700 BCE.

It's pure sophistry and an invention so that he can say that Iapygians may be the same as Cetina (Illyrians) genetically but they carried another language.

It's a very interesting trend among these linguists:

1)Albanians "albanianized" Komani-Kruja in 700 AD

after this didn't work out:

2)Albanians "albanianized" Durrës after 400 AD.

after this didn't work out:

3) for Hackstein Proto-Albanians "superseded" the "prior Illyrian culture" after 900 BCE.

and last Matzinger

4)Proto-Messapians "messapianized" Illyrian Cetina in 1700 BCE.

Can anyone spot the common trend and the slow realization of all these people? It's like a slowly moving train wreck of people who a hundred years ago would support that Albanians came from the Caucasus in the Byzantine era.
 
Excine said:
You just abandoned Matzinger's idea so say it clearly. Of course, your "new" theory also makes no sense but say it properly as your own and admit that you disagree with Matzinger.

Matzinger says that Proto-Messapians went to Middle Dalmatia, fused with Cetina and then went to Italy. For him, there is just one migration and one language which was carried by this new population which was born out of the fusion of Proto-Messapians from Armenochori and local Dalmatian Cetina.

The migration didn't happen from south of Montenegro or north of Dalmatia so Messapic didn't move from Albania, but Matzinger's claim makes no sense because most of the Messapians and all Cetina so far are J-L283. I believe that R-Z2103 will be found but it's Illyrian, not something non-Illyrian as it is already found in northern Croatia before Cetina. So where are the Proto-Messapians that gave the language to Cetina? They're nowhere.

The Proto-Messapians are Cetina but because he doesn't want to directly link Proto-Illyrian to Proto-Albanian he claims that a related group to Proto-Albanians went to Dalmatia and "fused" with Cetina around 1700 BCE.

It's pure sophistry and an invention so that he can say that Iapygians may be the same as Cetina (Illyrians) genetically but they carried another language.

It's a very interesting trend among these linguists:

1)Albanians "albanianized" Komani-Kruja in 700 AD

after this didn't work out:

2)Albanians "albanianized" Durrës after 400 AD.

after this didn't work out:

3) for Hackstein Proto-Albanians "superseded" the "prior Illyrian culture" after 900 BCE.

and last Matzinger

4)Proto-Messapians "messapianized" Illyrian Cetina in 1700 BCE.

Can anyone spot the common trend and the slow realization of all these people? It's like a slowly moving train wreck of people who a hundred years ago would support that Albanians came from the Caucasus in the Byzantine era.
Click to expand...

where are the origins of these messapics that went to dalmatia in 1700.............clearly if they came from messapic italy at that time, then they are greek


of the three big Epirot tribes the Chaones were definitely non-Greek (their name appears again in the form Chones among the Iapygians of Apulia

there was 14 epirote tribes in total.

Pyrrhus spoke in the exact same language as the messapics when they sought his help

in the study of
F. D’Andria,‘Greci ed indigeni in Iapygia’,
it states the Iapygians are of Greek origin ................maybe Epirote


According to Dionysius of Halicarnassus (Dionysius: I, 11, 1-4), Calabria was inhabited by
Arcadian colonists, who first among the Greeks crossed the Ionian Gulf being led by Oenotrus,
begot by King Lycaon (grandson of a former Lycaon) 17 generations before the Trojan War.
Oenotrus left with his brother Peucetius and others of his people. Peucetius settled over the
Iapygian promontory, ...............talking about salento promontory
 
We know that the Daunian and Peuceti women tattooed their bodies like the Japodes of Croatia .................Messapic women did not

I am starting to doubt if the Daunians , Peuceti and Messapics even spoke the same language ................then again languages change every 200 years or so.........we see this with every language even todays
 
Excine said:
The Proto-Messapians are Cetina but because he doesn't want to directly link Proto-Illyrian to Proto-Albanian he claims that a related group to Proto-Albanians went to Dalmatia and "fused" with Cetina around 1700 BCE.

It's pure sophistry and an invention so that he can say that Iapygians may be the same as Cetina (Illyrians) genetically but they carried another language.

.
Click to expand...


There has never ever been found any term Iapygian in the balkans ...........check yourself, the net ................the term is clearly Greek, referring to the heel of Italy
 
Excine said:
3) for Hackstein Proto-Albanians "superseded" the "prior Illyrian culture" after 900 BCE.
Click to expand...

Ive just posted the explanation here. Hackstein literally has mixed up two separate things. Matzinger says on page 164 that albanian can only have absorbed the illyrian toponyms (like shkodra) after the 2nd century BC at the earliest (already this is post roman era).

On the other page cited 9th century BC is mentioned in regard to Glasinac-Mati and nothing about proto-albanians is mentioned.

Hackstein has fumbled big time here. There is no argument about any proto-Albanians coming after 9th century bc that appears in the pages he cited, its simply a fuk up by hackstein.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-VIDEO/page116?p=657213&viewfull=1#post657213
 
torzio said:
where are the origins of these messapics that went to dalmatia in 1700.............clearly if they came from messapic italy at that time, then they are greek


of the three big Epirot tribes the Chaones were definitely non-Greek (their name appears again in the form Chones among the Iapygians of Apulia

there was 14 epirote tribes in total.

Pyrrhus spoke in the exact same language as the messapics when they sought his help

in the study of
F. D’Andria,‘Greci ed indigeni in Iapygia’,
it states the Iapygians are of Greek origin ................maybe Epirote


According to Dionysius of Halicarnassus (Dionysius: I, 11, 1-4), Calabria was inhabited by
Arcadian colonists, who first among the Greeks crossed the Ionian Gulf being led by Oenotrus,
begot by King Lycaon (grandson of a former Lycaon) 17 generations before the Trojan War.
Oenotrus left with his brother Peucetius and others of his people. Peucetius settled over the
Iapygian promontory, ...............talking about salento promontory
Click to expand...
Well Pyrrhus was raised at the court of the Taulantis by their king Glaucias so he spoke illyrian. Even Matzinger accepts that there is a conection of albanian language with Taulanti(talantis->dallandyshe). Matzinger also accepts a relationship between messapic and albanian. So this is how Pyrruhs speaks three related languages messapic/illyrian/proto-albanian.
I'm not even dwealling into the area were epirots were barbarian illyrians who did not fully hellenise like the macedons.
 
Johane Derite said:
I doubt that the messapics entered Italy via cetina. I suspect the south kalabri regions will have more z2103 lineages that would have carried the main messapic dialect.
Click to expand...

What is Matzinger reason behind the Cetina claim? Does not seem logical the Messapians intruded into the the very center of Illyrian culture horizon and survived as an enclave, than to migrate to Apulia. Messapian was likely settled in Albania south of Drin and was driven out by the Illyrian expansion, it would have crossed the Adriatik like the Arberesh did in the 1400s under pressure from another group.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
What is Matzinger reason behind the Cetina claim? Does not seem logical the Messapians intruded into the the very center of Illyrian culture horizon and survived as an enclave, than to migrate to Apulia. Messapian was likely settled in Albania south of Drin and was driven out by the Illyrian expansion, it would have crossed the Adriatik like the Arberesh did in the 1400s under pressure from another group.
Click to expand...

I didnt record it, i listened on my phone and screenshotted what i could, but some parts i couldnt make out clearly.

When he mentioned the cetina thing, as far as i remember, it was in passing a speculation about signs of activity across the Gargano, but he quickly moved on to another subject, my impression was that it was not like some extremely seriously held position, just a possibility mentioned in passing, but again, i would like to see a recording if anyone has one to be sure because i was also at work listening to it on my phone and not fully present, so i could be mistaken.

Also important to state that this was a lecture by Matzinger, Ackermann, and Gavranovic. Gavranovic is an archaeologist specialising in urnfield, and Ackermann is a linguist. Gavranovic here is the one that contributed the most archaeological data to this discussion, Matzinger is the one who added the stuff related to linguistics of the paleobalkan languages. So the archaeological specificities fall on Gavranovic ultimately.


https://www.oeaw.ac.at/oeai/institut/team/person/mario-gavranovic
 
Johane Derite said:
I didnt record it, i listened on my phone and screenshotted what i could, but some parts i couldnt make out clearly.

When he mentioned the cetina thing, as far as i remember, it was in passing a speculation about signs of activity across the Gargano, but he quickly moved on to another subject, my impression was that it was not like some extremely seriously held position, just a possibility mentioned in passing, but again, i would like to see a recording if anyone has one to be sure because i was also at work listening to it on my phone and not fully present, so i could be mistaken.

Also important to state that this was a lecture by Matzinger, Ackermann, and Gavranovic. Gavranovic is an archaeologist specialising in urnfield, and Ackermann is a linguist. Gavranovic here is the one that contributed the most archaeological data to this discussion, Matzinger is the one who added the stuff related to linguistics of the paleobalkan languages. So the archaeological specificities fall on Gavranovic ultimately.


https://www.oeaw.ac.at/oeai/institut/team/person/mario-gavranovic
Click to expand...

Their presentation of their findings is disjointed, not properly synthesized with each others findings. They also claimed the Daco-thracians group moved in the southern Balkans around 2500 BC, if the slide is to be taken at face value. This is not in line with what we know, they are largely a IA people related to the BA collapse movements.

In the Serbian forum one user was trying to decode the meaning of Kalabria and Dardanian Galabri, he came to the conclusion it meant river fish(river abundant in fish). I don't agree with this viewpoint. It was based on other similar river names in the ancient Balkans like the Kupa river being called Colapis and a river in Dobruja that was called Collabus. He reduced api and abu to meaning water/river.
I agree with the interpretation of that upa and abu = water. But the interpretation of Kala = fish was based on one Baltic river example, and it seems wrong. In wiki the proposed proto-Albanian word for water is udrija.
 Also our current term for waters(plural) is ujra/ujera. I think kala meant across, over, and possibly even cross-able, similar to our current verb kaloj and kalim. It does seem a little forced. But we do have old words like kalaman, kaliboc, kalaqaf. Visually, kalaqaf means over the neck (piggyback), kaliboc visually means horse riding over someones back. Kalaman should mean a child over (the phase) of breast feeding. Even though Orel proposed kala meaning upside down, I think it means over/across.
I see kalabria the messapian version of kala-udrija meaning across/over the water/s, if the word kalabria comes from a Albanoid explanation. That also happens to be a good description for Apulia, across/over the water.

The other rivers, the ancient Colapis and Collabus likely meant calm, passable water, in the Illyrian and Dacian context.
For example see this combination using modern Lithuanian.
https://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT&sl=lt&tl=en&text=kelias upės &op=translate
 
Last edited:
Excine said:
In the E-V13, J-L283 and Albanian origins thread, this same crowd has claimed that 1. Albanian E-V13 also comes from Slavs 2. E-V13 in Albanians comes from Vlachs 3. J-L283 is Celtic (Trojet can confirm many cases where one of them will try to insinuate a Celtic connection) 3. J-L283 is not Illyrian, it's something else 4. Albanians have high Slavic admixture and hundreds of other weekly cases where someone will try again and again to attack Albanians, to make weird claims about their main haplogroups, to claim that Albanians have high Slavic admixture. All of these matters have been answered and clarified by just a few people against all constant anti-Albanian attacks. They defended Cetina as Illyrian (credits to Trojet who first said it years ago) when some other people here were siding with others who simply didn't want Cetina to be Illyrian because they didn't J-L283 to be present in a major archaeological culture. If somebody here thinks that such people didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 because they care about the ethnogenesis of Illyrians, you simply can't understand what is happening around you.

They are the same people who some other Albanians (?) are attacking here daily just because they don't call their haplogroup the greatest that has ever existed or because they don't subscribe to the more and more ludicrous idea that tries to disconnect Albanians from Illyrians. Some people here prefer to just attack other Albanians simply out of spite because they stand up to anti-Albanian propaganda, while they themselves have never done a single thing even when they were in anthrogenica and weren't banned there.

What exactly does the crowd here think that they're doing? They're mostly parroting fringe theories, anti-Albanian propaganda (many anti-Albanian nationalists are very happy when they read Johane Derite, Paleo-Revenge and the "neo-Illyrian" (lol) ) and attacking Albanians who stand up to BS about us.
Do you guys even understand what 99% of Albanians would have to say about your behavior?
Click to expand...

I almost shed some tears. Good inspiration for a script for a Turkish or Indian soap opera.
 
Olti27 said:
Well Pyrrhus was raised at the court of the Taulantis by their king Glaucias so he spoke illyrian. Even Matzinger accepts that there is a conection of albanian language with Taulanti(talantis->dallandyshe). Matzinger also accepts a relationship between messapic and albanian. So this is how Pyrruhs speaks three related languages messapic/illyrian/proto-albanian.
I'm not even dwealling into the area were epirots were barbarian illyrians who did not fully hellenise like the macedons.
Click to expand...

Glaucius gave Pyrrhus refuge from the Macedonian Cassander who took all of epirus ( albania ) as Macedonian land ...............Glaucias was in modern southern Montenegro at that time ....same as Teuta was.

Cassander took Butrint, Appollonia and Durres .

https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks14/1400791h.html#ch2
 
torzio said:
We know that the Daunian and Peuceti women tattooed their bodies like the Japodes of Croatia .................Messapic women did not
I am starting to doubt if the Daunians , Peuceti and Messapics even spoke the same language ................then again languages change every 200 years or so.........we see this with every language even todays
Click to expand...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapyg..._Calabria_et_Lucania_-_Shepherd-c-030-031.jpg

Messapii separated from the other 2 ...........
 
@Torzio … the Messapi buried their dead like the Italics, … you carry my Y chr… and I was born in Messapia, … I wouldn’t theorize too much since most of the stuff you are talking about is just conjecture.
 
As Illyrii-proprie-dicti would properly say, "kush naj ka inatin ju qift nona"...
 
Salento said:
@Torzio … the Messapi buried their dead like the Italics, … you carry my Y chr… and I was born in Messapia, … I wouldn’t theorize too much since most of the stuff you are talking about is just conjecture.
Click to expand...

yes we are the same..........and we have matches in germany, belgium, poland ,britain and other european areas.......we have no idea where our ancestors began, we can see where ftdna have placed us in austria, thats their guess..................you only know where you are based only via your BDM records

nobody is where they are today......where they where in the past.

as per my paternal line, it was in trentino val di non, pre 1600 as per BDM records .............my maternal line was in Carnia friuli circa 1700

the % of people being in the same area from roman times to today, is minuscule.
 
torzio said:
yes we are the same..........and we have matches in germany, belgium, poland ,britain and other european areas.......we have no idea where our ancestors began, we can see where ftdna have placed us in austria, thats their guess..................you only know where you are based only via your BDM records
nobody is where they are today......where they where in the past.
as per my paternal line, it was in trentino val di non, pre 1600 as per BDM records .............my maternal line was in Carnia friuli circa 1700
the % of people being in the same area from roman times to today, is minuscule.
Click to expand...

Maybe you didn't mean it, but you've been propping up Dauni and Peuceti and lowering power and importance of the Messapi (in a variety of threads).
 
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