Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".

It all depends in the chronology. Its obvious these "Bard-" names in illyrian and messapian are related. There is also the messapic city "bardulos" which linguists belive means "grey". Obviously a cognate.

Since we have literal documented use of this word, the actual source should take primacy, and not the speculated transitional phoneme which is the opinion of a linguist or two.

Its just all against occams razor
 
Let me guess, they were Albanians?

The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.

Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians.

Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.
 
The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.

Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians.

Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.

I disagree, but I wasn't thinking about those Dardanians when I made that comment.

The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.
 
For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".

Thank you. I don't know a lot about etymology, but I see you are saying that PIE "g" became "dh".

For this to mean that the "Bardh" of today was "Barg" at 400 BC, two scenarios have to be excluded. First, assuming your "g">"dh" argument is true, it might be that the Dardanians had already been through that process. Keep in mind that Bardylis lived around 1500-1700 years before documented modern Albanian "dh" and around 3000 years after the possible PIE "g".

Second, it could be that some "dh" came from "g" but some other "dh" came from "d" or something else. So it has to be that all modern "dh" came from "g" and nothing else.

Do you have any argument to exclude these two possibilities?
 
Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree.

At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:

"Bardus"
"Skenobardus"
"Bardibalus"

We also have the messapic examples:

"Barzides"
"Barzidihi"

Bardhok was a common folk name before the Albanian state formed whereas it is more rare now. Bardh is still a very common name though
It is Skenobarbus i think so,but some linguists already suggested see Enlglish "beard",proto germanic bardaz.
ΙΕ *bhardheh = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)

I wouldn't be surprise if some of the other names with "bard" have similar root.
 
Could there be any connection between "bardhë" and "albus", the root of the exonym "Albania"? There is some kind of mythical obsession with the white colour in that region, as far as I can google it but I don't see it anywhere mentioned. Beside personal names, there are also these examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Drin

Even qeleshe, the typical hat, must be also white if I read it correctly. Pardon my ignorance, I just noticed these details.
 
It is Skenobarbus i think so,but linguist already suggested see Enlglish "beard",proto germanic bardaz.
ΙΕ *bhardh-eh2 = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)
I wouldn't be surprise if some of the other names with "bard" have similar root.
Doesnt make sense that a messapic city would be named bardulos if its beard related.
What does make sense is if albanian bardh etymology actually is related to the etymology of Beard *bhard-eh2 instead of the bʰrh₁ǵ- ,
* Or even possible that *bhard-eh2 comes from albanian/illyr bardh, as in beards associated with white and old age.
This type of semantic slippage happens all the time.
Especially since there is already an IE word for beard:
Mjekër
From Proto-Albanian *smekrā, from Proto-Indo-European *smoḱrus (compare Lithuanian smãkras (“chin”), Old Armenian մօրուք (mōrukʿ, “beard”), Sanskrit श्मश्रु (śmáśru, “beard”)).
 
Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree.

At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:

"Bardus"
"Skenobardus"
"Bardibalus"

We also have the messapic examples:

"Barzides"
"Barzidihi"

Bardhok was a common folk name before the Albanian state formed whereas it is more rare now. Bardh is still a very common name though

But if the PIE *g' indeed had become *d in Proto-Albanian then it would have merged with *d with other PIE origins and the subsequent sound changes pertaining to the /d/ phoneme would've become the same in all occurrences of ancient /d/. Did that happen, all the *d become *dh at least in the same relative positions in the syllable? Later speakers wouldn't consciously remind which *d came from *g' and which *d came from other older phonemes if they had indeed merged. Couldn't it have been just a different phoneme that was not represented truthfully by the Greek and Latin alphabets and a simple *d was used instead? Transliterations of foreign languages' words was rarely very faithful to the original phonology.
 
Doesnt make sense that a messapic city would be named bardulos if its beard related.
What does make sense is if albanian bardh etymology actually is related to the etymology of Beard *bhard-eh2 instead of the bʰrh₁ǵ- ,
* Or even possible that *bhard-eh2 comes from albanian/illyr bardh, as in beards associated with white and old age.
This type of semantic slippage happens all the time.
Especially since there is already an IE word for beard:
Mjekër
From Proto-Albanian *smekrā, from Proto-Indo-European *smoḱrus (compare Lithuanian smãkras (“chin”), Old Armenian մօրուք (mōrukʿ, “beard”), Sanskrit श्मश्रु (śmáśru, “beard”)).

That assumption can only be plausible if it is demonstrated that other words with an assumed *d in the PIE root also became *dh in Albanian in a similar position in the word. Phonemes change in a surprisingly consistent way that works for the vast majority of terms, that's why sound rules exist.

I will consider that after your * you're not seriously considering that an ancient PIE root found in many disparate IE subgroups, very far away from Illyrian territories, came from the much, much later Proto-Albanian/Illyrian term. That would be seeing the etymology totally upside down.
 
That assumption can only be plausible if it is demonstrated that other words with an assumed *d in the PIE root also became *dh in Albanian in a similar position in the word. Phonemes change in a surprisingly consistent way that works for the vast majority of terms, that's why sound rules exist.

I will consider that after your * you're not seriously considering that an ancient PIE root found in many disparate IE subgroups, very far away from Illyrian territories, came from the much, much later Proto-Albanian/Illyrian term. That would be seeing the etymology totally upside down.

He mentioned these:

ΙΕ *bhardh-eh2 = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)

The "Illyrian" idiom is a central european idiom that had germanic on its north-west, italic/celtic on its southwest, and the balto-slavic on its east. All those languages would have been in a zone where that word could have drifted semantically at some early stage, either the "illyrian" drifting to mean white, or the others to mean beard. That was one idea, not something i'm gonna bet my retirement on.
 
Thank you. I don't know a lot about etymology, but I see you are saying that PIE "g" became "dh".

For this to mean that the "Bardh" of today was "Barg" at 400 BC, two scenarios have to be excluded. First, assuming your "g">"dh" argument is true, it might be that the Dardanians had already been through that process. Keep in mind that Bardylis lived around 1500-1700 years before documented modern Albanian "dh" and around 3000 years after the possible PIE "g".

Second, it could be that some "dh" came from "g" but some other "dh" came from "d" or something else. So it has to be that all modern "dh" came from "g" and nothing else.

Do you have any argument to exclude these two possibilities?
I actually meant to be either "bardz" in proto-Albanian as linguist suggest but don't know which time frame is considered proto-Albanian to them, or already "bardh" by that period,as i said we can only guess at which period this change happened.

There is some evidence of satemization in Thracian,g>z and k>s,so sound change from g to dh in Albanian would be possible at earlier date but i don't know when,was just asking for clues.Maybe some more expertized in linguistics or familiar with the language here can explain you better,i hope you understood what i meant.
And i don't think that all dh is coming from g in Albanian.
 
But if the PIE *g' indeed had become *d in Proto-Albanian then it would have merged with *d with other PIE origins and the subsequent sound changes pertaining to the /d/ phoneme would've become the same in all occurrences of ancient /d/. Did that happen, all the *d become *dh at least in the same relative positions in the syllable? Later speakers wouldn't consciously remind which *d came from *g' and which *d came from other older phonemes if they had indeed merged. Couldn't it have been just a different phoneme that was not represented truthfully by the Greek and Latin alphabets and a simple *d was used instead? Transliterations of foreign languages' words was rarely very faithful to the original phonology.

Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.

Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.

Dv_l8ArXcAI42iM.jpg:large






I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (white) and not germanic "beard".

I agree that the gomb = dhemb etymology is sound, and also agree with g evolving to dh in words like this. I can't say that i'm sure there can't exist exceptions in special words,
but if the alb etymolgy comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- this is solid. The dz in between though is more speculative, but I still agree with it, but believe that dialectal variation is possible, and that chronology matters at which point the transition his supposed to have happened.


Ok, so:

Firstly, the Messapian city Bardulos (today Barletta), means "gray". Source:

BgC3UiE.png






Secondly, the Messapian name "Barzides, Barzidihi" according to Matzinger comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- (the same as Albanian's "bardh" (white) etymology). Source: Einfuhrung ins Messapich by Matzinger:

OaA6iI8.jpg




Thirdly, the discrepency in the Z and D could be, as you noted, due to the Bardylis being documented by greeks writing the phoneme wrong. The messapians having their own script would write it more correctly, or it could simply be a dialectal quirk, like Tosk and Gheg today, Shqipni vs Shqiperi (both mean Albania).


I think its unlikely that both Barzidihi, and Bardulos in Messapia relate to white, and that Bardylis in Dardania not connect to it.
 
Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.

Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.

Dv_l8ArXcAI42iM.jpg:large






I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (white) and not germanic "beard".

I agree that the gomb = dhemb etymology is sound, and also agree with g evolving to dh in words like this. I can't say that i'm sure there can't exist exceptions in special words,
but if the alb etymolgy comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- this is solid. The dz in between though is more speculative, but I still agree with it, but believe that dialectal variation is possible, and that chronology matters at which point the transition his supposed to have happened.


Ok, so:

Firstly, the Messapian city Bardulos (today Barletta), means "gray". Source:

BgC3UiE.png






Secondly, the Messapian name "Barzides, Barzidihi" according to Matzinger comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- (the same as Albanian's "bardh" (white) etymology). Source: Einfuhrung ins Messapich by Matzinger:

OaA6iI8.jpg




Thirdly, the discrepency in the Z and D could be, as you noted, due to the Bardylis being documented by greeks writing the phoneme wrong. The messapians having their own script would write it more correctly, or it could simply be a dialectal quirk, like Tosk and Gheg today, Shqipni vs Shqiperi (both mean Albania).


I think its unlikely that both Barzidihi, and Bardulos in Messapia relate to white, and that Bardylis in Dardania not connect to it.

I agree with you that it looks more plausible to me that Bardylis has something to do with similar bard-rooted words in the same broad region. It makes sense to me and the etymology is sound especially compared with other PIE roots and their correspondences in Albanian. In my opinion, the problem must be in imprecise transliteration to Greek, probably because there was dialectal variation. Hypothetically, just to give you an example, it could be that what in some regions was a fully fricative /dz/ was still more like a lightly palatalized /d/ (sort of how many French speakers pronounce their "di") opposed to the dental or fully alveolar /d/, and in the absence of similar phonemes in Ancient Greek that sound was rendered simply as /d/.
 
Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.
Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.
Dv_l8ArXcAI42iM.jpg:large

I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (white) and not germanic "beard".
If you think messapic is illyrian, then have you matched it with albanian words............
because I read Messapic has roots as an east balkan language instead of a west balkan language/script etc
 
The name 'Bardylis'

the name is after a king of Dardania which Greeks consider them as Illyrian

how it is written
ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ (Βάρδυλις)
Ι suggest notice the -is and the u

'Βάρδυλις δ' ο των Ιλλυριών βασιλεύς,'

so what does BΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ means, BARD-ULI-S
it is same with Latin ending- ULI compare Greco but Greculi
Bard is clear northern form of Italian Barba notice barber means beard

SO

ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ = BARDULI = SMALL BEARD, SHORT BEARD, or Barba+uli

it is obvious the meaning in IE as also possible true Illyrian word if Illyrians came from Celto-Germanic Noricum
offcourse has nothing to do with Albanian bard+yll = white star, shining star

ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ=BARDULIS=BARBA+ULI
compare Greaco and Greculi.



part considering the termination bard=grey gris
the Greek term is φαιος,
BUT
there is a word for colour Παρδαλος = mixed spoted
and a word for male cat Παρδος,
but to these must find out why Albanian has B and Greek has P.
if close enough at the begining,
or to find out if Messapian word Barbulo comes from grey hair/beard
Like Greek Κιτρινον comes from Kitron =citron



So for now I believe I will stay on ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ= BARD+ULIS = Barba+uli = BEARD+Uli

as for Barzidihi
in Greek is ΒΑΡΖΙΔΙΗι
it has clear υπογεγραμενη, the mark in koine put under the letter in some cases, like dative, the Last I

so the correct translation to Erasmian is BARZIDIE so possible in onomastic case, the simple form would be BARZIDIES.

VERY INTERESTING IS TO EXCLUDE S

in that case we have

(S) TABO+aos BARZ+IDIEι

Ι
think now we might have a clear view what the sign says(the TABO+aos of BARZ+ides)
It is obvious that sign is written in DATIVUS POSSESSIVUS OR(less) DATIVUS INSTRUMENTI

ΒΑΡΖ+ΙΔΙ-ΗΙ
 
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Edit: how to delete this post? Let the professionals continue the discussion
 
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so what does BΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ means, BARD-ULI-S
it is same with Latin ending- ULI compare Greco but Greculi
Bard is clear northern form of Italian Barba notice barber means beard

SO

ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ = BARDULI = SMALL BEARD, SHORT BEARD, or Barba+uli


This does not make much sense because barba seems to be a later Latin form, caused by phonetic assimilation (and maybe foreign influence of IE languages in which "beard" started with a /b/) - so it cannot be a North Italic form unless we assume, through utter conjecture, that the same sound change also happened in northern Italic languages. The PIE root *bhardheh2 would've given, according to Proto-Italic sound laws, *farba, not *barba and far less *barda. Therefore the only plausible Italic forms for "beard" are something like barba or farba, but not barda.
 
This does not make much sense because barba seems to be a later Latin form, caused by phonetic assimilation (and maybe foreign influence of IE languages in which "beard" started with a /b/) - so it cannot be a North Italic form unless we assume, through utter conjecture, that the same sound change also happened in northern Italic languages. The PIE root *bhardheh2 would've given, according to Proto-Italic sound laws, *farba, not *barba and far less *barda. Therefore the only plausible Italic forms for "beard" are something like barba or farba, but not barda.

oups

I did not wanted to say that Barduli comes from Barba,
I wanted to comapre it with modern speaking in Balkan,
were barba means ungle, and Beard carrier,
I mean Bard+uli+s
is like the name Barba-rossa (compare barda-rossa)
or modern times
BarbaGiannis (beard+John) etc etc
it is more possible that Bard- ment the same with Barba,
That is what I wanted to tell.

proto-Germanic *Bardaz, Deutsch bart, Russian boroda, Dutch baard
I think the possible meaning is clear,
 
The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.

Actually that is extremely improbable, since the phrygians which were east of the Dardanians of Troy are accepted as obviously being from the balkans. As were the Mysians who were east of them.

There is something strange about the Dardanian connection not even being mentioned by barely anyone and just swept aside. Meanwhile, here is what the actual evidence about trojans being luwians is:

"At the same time one must recognize that the discussion of the ethnicity of theTrojans rests on an even shakier foundation than the debate about the ethnic constitutionof the kingdom of Arzawa. In the latter case one can at least rely on a small but cohesivecorpus of local personal names and on a number of texts that presumably emanate fromthe area.

In the instance of northwestern Anatolia our resources are limited to threepersonal names, three theonyms, and two toponyms attested in Bronze Age cuneiformsources. Going somewhat ahead, one can observe that none of these eight elements is demonstrably Luvian or even Luvic, and most of them defy linguistic identification.

Therest of the information must be supplied from the Greek poetic account of the TrojanWar, whose final redaction probably postdates the historical events underlying thenarrative by about five centuries. Finally, the ongoing excavations of Bronze Age Troyhave failed to yield a single monumental inscription, and the epigraphic evidence at ourdisposal consists of a sole Hieroglyphic Luvian seal found in Troy, whose owner cannotbe identified with any known historical figure."

SOCIOLINGUISTICS OF THE LUVIAN LANGUAGEVOLUME 1 by ILYA S. YAKUBOVICH


This guy is a Luwian expert btw..


So the evidence significantly points to Trojans NOT being Luwian. 8 linguistic elements are not even in the Luvic group. Also a Luwian seal is not a Luwian inscription, these are two different things.
 
oups

I did not wanted to say that Barduli comes from Barba,
I wanted to comapre it with modern speaking in Balkan,
were barba means ungle, and Beard carrier,
I mean Bard+uli+s
is like the name Barba-rossa (compare barda-rossa)
or modern times
BarbaGiannis (beard+John) etc etc
it is more possible that Bard- ment the same with Barba,
That is what I wanted to tell.

proto-Germanic *Bardaz, Deutsch bart, Russian boroda, Dutch baard
I think the possible meaning is clear,
He was called "bradilo" by some dalmatian romanticist writers,which will mean something like "bearded man" but that could be more like rendering the name in their own language.
 
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