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Thread: Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

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    Could there be any connection between "bardhë" and "albus", the root of the exonym "Albania"? There is some kind of mythical obsession with the white colour in that region, as far as I can google it but I don't see it anywhere mentioned. Beside personal names, there are also these examples:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardha
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Drin

    Even qeleshe, the typical hat, must be also white if I read it correctly. Pardon my ignorance, I just noticed these details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    It is Skenobarbus i think so,but linguist already suggested see Enlglish "beard",proto germanic bardaz.
    ΙΕ *bhardh-eh2 = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)
    I wouldn't be surprise if some of the other names with "bard" have similar root.
    Doesnt make sense that a messapic city would be named bardulos if its beard related.
    What does make sense is if albanian bardh etymology actually is related to the etymology of Beard *bhard-eh2 instead of the bʰrh₁ǵ- ,
    * Or even possible that *bhard-eh2 comes from albanian/illyr bardh, as in beards associated with white and old age.
    This type of semantic slippage happens all the time.
    Especially since there is already an IE word for beard:
    Mjekër
    From Proto-Albanian *smekrā, from Proto-Indo-European *smoḱrus (compare Lithuanian smãkras (“chin”), Old Armenian մօրուք (mōrukʿ, “beard”), Sanskrit श्मश्रु (śmáśru, “beard”)).
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree.

    At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:

    "Bardus"
    "Skenobardus"
    "Bardibalus"

    We also have the messapic examples:

    "Barzides"
    "Barzidihi"

    Bardhok was a common folk name before the Albanian state formed whereas it is more rare now. Bardh is still a very common name though
    But if the PIE *g' indeed had become *d in Proto-Albanian then it would have merged with *d with other PIE origins and the subsequent sound changes pertaining to the /d/ phoneme would've become the same in all occurrences of ancient /d/. Did that happen, all the *d become *dh at least in the same relative positions in the syllable? Later speakers wouldn't consciously remind which *d came from *g' and which *d came from other older phonemes if they had indeed merged. Couldn't it have been just a different phoneme that was not represented truthfully by the Greek and Latin alphabets and a simple *d was used instead? Transliterations of foreign languages' words was rarely very faithful to the original phonology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Doesnt make sense that a messapic city would be named bardulos if its beard related.
    What does make sense is if albanian bardh etymology actually is related to the etymology of Beard *bhard-eh2 instead of the bʰrh₁ǵ- ,
    * Or even possible that *bhard-eh2 comes from albanian/illyr bardh, as in beards associated with white and old age.
    This type of semantic slippage happens all the time.
    Especially since there is already an IE word for beard:
    Mjekër
    From Proto-Albanian *smekrā, from Proto-Indo-European *smoḱrus (compare Lithuanian smãkras (“chin”), Old Armenian մօրուք (mōrukʿ, “beard”), Sanskrit श्मश्रु (śmáśru, “beard”)).
    That assumption can only be plausible if it is demonstrated that other words with an assumed *d in the PIE root also became *dh in Albanian in a similar position in the word. Phonemes change in a surprisingly consistent way that works for the vast majority of terms, that's why sound rules exist.

    I will consider that after your * you're not seriously considering that an ancient PIE root found in many disparate IE subgroups, very far away from Illyrian territories, came from the much, much later Proto-Albanian/Illyrian term. That would be seeing the etymology totally upside down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That assumption can only be plausible if it is demonstrated that other words with an assumed *d in the PIE root also became *dh in Albanian in a similar position in the word. Phonemes change in a surprisingly consistent way that works for the vast majority of terms, that's why sound rules exist.

    I will consider that after your * you're not seriously considering that an ancient PIE root found in many disparate IE subgroups, very far away from Illyrian territories, came from the much, much later Proto-Albanian/Illyrian term. That would be seeing the etymology totally upside down.
    He mentioned these:

    ΙΕ *bhardh-eh2 = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)

    The "Illyrian" idiom is a central european idiom that had germanic on its north-west, italic/celtic on its southwest, and the balto-slavic on its east. All those languages would have been in a zone where that word could have drifted semantically at some early stage, either the "illyrian" drifting to mean white, or the others to mean beard. That was one idea, not something i'm gonna bet my retirement on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you. I don't know a lot about etymology, but I see you are saying that PIE "g" became "dh".

    For this to mean that the "Bardh" of today was "Barg" at 400 BC, two scenarios have to be excluded. First, assuming your "g">"dh" argument is true, it might be that the Dardanians had already been through that process. Keep in mind that Bardylis lived around 1500-1700 years before documented modern Albanian "dh" and around 3000 years after the possible PIE "g".

    Second, it could be that some "dh" came from "g" but some other "dh" came from "d" or something else. So it has to be that all modern "dh" came from "g" and nothing else.

    Do you have any argument to exclude these two possibilities?
    I actually meant to be either "bardz" in proto-Albanian as linguist suggest but don't know which time frame is considered proto-Albanian to them, or already "bardh" by that period,as i said we can only guess at which period this change happened.

    There is some evidence of satemization in Thracian,g>z and k>s,so sound change from g to dh in Albanian would be possible at earlier date but i don't know when,was just asking for clues.Maybe some more expertized in linguistics or familiar with the language here can explain you better,i hope you understood what i meant.
    And i don't think that all dh is coming from g in Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    But if the PIE *g' indeed had become *d in Proto-Albanian then it would have merged with *d with other PIE origins and the subsequent sound changes pertaining to the /d/ phoneme would've become the same in all occurrences of ancient /d/. Did that happen, all the *d become *dh at least in the same relative positions in the syllable? Later speakers wouldn't consciously remind which *d came from *g' and which *d came from other older phonemes if they had indeed merged. Couldn't it have been just a different phoneme that was not represented truthfully by the Greek and Latin alphabets and a simple *d was used instead? Transliterations of foreign languages' words was rarely very faithful to the original phonology.
    Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.

    Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.







    I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (white) and not germanic "beard".

    I agree that the gomb = dhemb etymology is sound, and also agree with g evolving to dh in words like this. I can't say that i'm sure there can't exist exceptions in special words,
    but if the alb etymolgy comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- this is solid. The dz in between though is more speculative, but I still agree with it, but believe that dialectal variation is possible, and that chronology matters at which point the transition his supposed to have happened.


    Ok, so:

    Firstly, the Messapian city Bardulos (today Barletta), means "gray". Source:







    Secondly, the Messapian name "Barzides, Barzidihi" according to Matzinger comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- (the same as Albanian's "bardh" (white) etymology). Source: Einfuhrung ins Messapich by Matzinger:





    Thirdly, the discrepency in the Z and D could be, as you noted, due to the Bardylis being documented by greeks writing the phoneme wrong. The messapians having their own script would write it more correctly, or it could simply be a dialectal quirk, like Tosk and Gheg today, Shqipni vs Shqiperi (both mean Albania).


    I think its unlikely that both Barzidihi, and Bardulos in Messapia relate to white, and that Bardylis in Dardania not connect to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.

    Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.







    I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (white) and not germanic "beard".

    I agree that the gomb = dhemb etymology is sound, and also agree with g evolving to dh in words like this. I can't say that i'm sure there can't exist exceptions in special words,
    but if the alb etymolgy comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- this is solid. The dz in between though is more speculative, but I still agree with it, but believe that dialectal variation is possible, and that chronology matters at which point the transition his supposed to have happened.


    Ok, so:

    Firstly, the Messapian city Bardulos (today Barletta), means "gray". Source:







    Secondly, the Messapian name "Barzides, Barzidihi" according to Matzinger comes from bʰrh₁ǵ- (the same as Albanian's "bardh" (white) etymology). Source: Einfuhrung ins Messapich by Matzinger:





    Thirdly, the discrepency in the Z and D could be, as you noted, due to the Bardylis being documented by greeks writing the phoneme wrong. The messapians having their own script would write it more correctly, or it could simply be a dialectal quirk, like Tosk and Gheg today, Shqipni vs Shqiperi (both mean Albania).


    I think its unlikely that both Barzidihi, and Bardulos in Messapia relate to white, and that Bardylis in Dardania not connect to it.
    I agree with you that it looks more plausible to me that Bardylis has something to do with similar bard-rooted words in the same broad region. It makes sense to me and the etymology is sound especially compared with other PIE roots and their correspondences in Albanian. In my opinion, the problem must be in imprecise transliteration to Greek, probably because there was dialectal variation. Hypothetically, just to give you an example, it could be that what in some regions was a fully fricative /dz/ was still more like a lightly palatalized /d/ (sort of how many French speakers pronounce their "di") opposed to the dental or fully alveolar /d/, and in the absence of similar phonemes in Ancient Greek that sound was rendered simply as /d/.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.
    Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.

    I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (white) and not germanic "beard".
    If you think messapic is illyrian, then have you matched it with albanian words............
    because I read Messapic has roots as an east balkan language instead of a west balkan language/script etc
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The name 'Bardylis'

    the name is after a king of Dardania which Greeks consider them as Illyrian

    how it is written
    ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ (Βάρδυλις)
    Ι suggest notice the -is and the u

    'Βάρδυλις δ' ο των Ιλλυριών βασιλεύς,'

    so what does BΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ means, BARD-ULI-S
    it is same with Latin ending- ULI compare Greco but Greculi
    Bard is clear northern form of Italian Barba notice barber means beard

    SO

    ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ = BARDULI = SMALL BEARD, SHORT BEARD, or Barba+uli

    it is obvious the meaning in IE as also possible true Illyrian word if Illyrians came from Celto-Germanic Noricum
    offcourse has nothing to do with Albanian bard+yll = white star, shining star

    ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ=BARDULIS=BARBA+ULI
    compare Greaco and Greculi.



    part considering the termination bard=grey gris
    the Greek term is φαιος,
    BUT
    there is a word for colour Παρδαλος = mixed spoted
    and a word for male cat Παρδος,
    but to these must find out why Albanian has B and Greek has P.
    if close enough at the begining,
    or to find out if Messapian word Barbulo comes from grey hair/beard
    Like Greek Κιτρινον comes from Kitron =citron



    So for now I believe I will stay on ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ= BARD+ULIS = Barba+uli = BEARD+Uli

    as for Barzidihi
    in Greek is ΒΑΡΖΙΔΙΗι
    it has clear υπογεγραμενη, the mark in koine put under the letter in some cases, like dative, the Last I

    so the correct translation to Erasmian is BARZIDIE so possible in onomastic case, the simple form would be BARZIDIES.

    VERY INTERESTING IS TO EXCLUDE S

    in that case we have

    (S) TABO+aos BARZ+IDIEι

    Ι
    think now we might have a clear view what the sign says(the TABO+aos of BARZ+ides)
    It is obvious that sign is written in DATIVUS POSSESSIVUS OR(less) DATIVUS INSTRUMENTI

    ΒΑΡΖ+ΙΔΙ-ΗΙ
    Last edited by Yetos; 17-01-19 at 19:54.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Last edited by RealAlbanian; 18-01-19 at 03:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    so what does BΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ means, BARD-ULI-S
    it is same with Latin ending- ULI compare Greco but Greculi
    Bard is clear northern form of Italian Barba notice barber means beard

    SO

    ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ = BARDULI = SMALL BEARD, SHORT BEARD, or Barba+uli

    This does not make much sense because barba seems to be a later Latin form, caused by phonetic assimilation (and maybe foreign influence of IE languages in which "beard" started with a /b/) - so it cannot be a North Italic form unless we assume, through utter conjecture, that the same sound change also happened in northern Italic languages. The PIE root *bhardheh2 would've given, according to Proto-Italic sound laws, *farba, not *barba and far less *barda. Therefore the only plausible Italic forms for "beard" are something like barba or farba, but not barda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This does not make much sense because barba seems to be a later Latin form, caused by phonetic assimilation (and maybe foreign influence of IE languages in which "beard" started with a /b/) - so it cannot be a North Italic form unless we assume, through utter conjecture, that the same sound change also happened in northern Italic languages. The PIE root *bhardheh2 would've given, according to Proto-Italic sound laws, *farba, not *barba and far less *barda. Therefore the only plausible Italic forms for "beard" are something like barba or farba, but not barda.
    oups

    I did not wanted to say that Barduli comes from Barba,
    I wanted to comapre it with modern speaking in Balkan,
    were barba means ungle, and Beard carrier,
    I mean Bard+uli+s
    is like the name Barba-rossa (compare barda-rossa)
    or modern times
    BarbaGiannis (beard+John) etc etc
    it is more possible that Bard- ment the same with Barba,
    That is what I wanted to tell.

    proto-Germanic *Bardaz, Deutsch bart, Russian boroda, Dutch baard
    I think the possible meaning is clear,

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.
    Actually that is extremely improbable, since the phrygians which were east of the Dardanians of Troy are accepted as obviously being from the balkans. As were the Mysians who were east of them.

    There is something strange about the Dardanian connection not even being mentioned by barely anyone and just swept aside. Meanwhile, here is what the actual evidence about trojans being luwians is:

    "At the same time one must recognize that the discussion of the ethnicity of theTrojans rests on an even shakier foundation than the debate about the ethnic constitutionof the kingdom of Arzawa. In the latter case one can at least rely on a small but cohesivecorpus of local personal names and on a number of texts that presumably emanate fromthe area.

    In the instance of northwestern Anatolia our resources are limited to threepersonal names, three theonyms, and two toponyms attested in Bronze Age cuneiformsources. Going somewhat ahead, one can observe that none of these eight elements is demonstrably Luvian or even Luvic, and most of them defy linguistic identification.

    Therest of the information must be supplied from the Greek poetic account of the TrojanWar, whose final redaction probably postdates the historical events underlying thenarrative by about five centuries. Finally, the ongoing excavations of Bronze Age Troyhave failed to yield a single monumental inscription, and the epigraphic evidence at ourdisposal consists of a sole Hieroglyphic Luvian seal found in Troy, whose owner cannotbe identified with any known historical figure."

    SOCIOLINGUISTICS OF THE LUVIAN LANGUAGEVOLUME 1 by ILYA S. YAKUBOVICH


    This guy is a Luwian expert btw..


    So the evidence significantly points to Trojans NOT being Luwian. 8 linguistic elements are not even in the Luvic group. Also a Luwian seal is not a Luwian inscription, these are two different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    oups

    I did not wanted to say that Barduli comes from Barba,
    I wanted to comapre it with modern speaking in Balkan,
    were barba means ungle, and Beard carrier,
    I mean Bard+uli+s
    is like the name Barba-rossa (compare barda-rossa)
    or modern times
    BarbaGiannis (beard+John) etc etc
    it is more possible that Bard- ment the same with Barba,
    That is what I wanted to tell.

    proto-Germanic *Bardaz, Deutsch bart, Russian boroda, Dutch baard
    I think the possible meaning is clear,
    He was called "bradilo" by some dalmatian romanticist writers,which will mean something like "bearded man" but that could be more like rendering the name in their own language.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 18-01-19 at 01:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.

    Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians.

    Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.
    No Thracians were Serbs and Albanians came to Macedonia much later the only thing you have a connection to is Illyrians and that's being close to their ancient location if you want to call that a genetic match or close to a genetic match besides that's not every single Albanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I disagree, but I wasn't thinking about those Dardanians when I made that comment.

    The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.
    Yes this and at least the culture was similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Actually that is extremely improbable, since the phrygians which were east of the Dardanians of Troy are accepted as obviously being from the balkans. As were the Mysians who were east of them.
    There is something strange about the Dardanian connection not even being mentioned by barely anyone and just swept aside. Meanwhile, here is what the actual evidence about trojans being luwians is:
    "At the same time one must recognize that the discussion of the ethnicity of theTrojans rests on an even shakier foundation than the debate about the ethnic constitutionof the kingdom of Arzawa. In the latter case one can at least rely on a small but cohesivecorpus of local personal names and on a number of texts that presumably emanate fromthe area.
    In the instance of northwestern Anatolia our resources are limited to threepersonal names, three theonyms, and two toponyms attested in Bronze Age cuneiformsources. Going somewhat ahead, one can observe that none of these eight elements is demonstrably Luvian or even Luvic, and most of them defy linguistic identification.
    Therest of the information must be supplied from the Greek poetic account of the TrojanWar, whose final redaction probably postdates the historical events underlying thenarrative by about five centuries. Finally, the ongoing excavations of Bronze Age Troyhave failed to yield a single monumental inscription, and the epigraphic evidence at ourdisposal consists of a sole Hieroglyphic Luvian seal found in Troy, whose owner cannotbe identified with any known historical figure."
    SOCIOLINGUISTICS OF THE LUVIAN LANGUAGEVOLUME 1 by ILYA S. YAKUBOVICH
    This guy is a Luwian expert btw..
    So the evidence significantly points to Trojans NOT being Luwian. 8 linguistic elements are not even in the Luvic group. Also a Luwian seal is not a Luwian inscription, these are two different things.
    Phyrgians did not originate in anatolia, they went to anatolia from the balkans. they arrived there in the early iron age, I doubt that dardanians and Phygians where ever neighbours .
    Phygians where involved in wars against the Lidians circa 500BC
    i will check hittite paers to see if they noted the phygians in their time in Anatolia
    .
    i agree with you on the seal

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    We are dardanians maddaffakkas !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Phyrgians did not originate in anatolia, they went to anatolia from the balkans. they arrived there in the early iron age, I doubt that dardanians and Phygians where ever neighbours .
    Phygians where involved in wars against the Lidians circa 500BC
    i will check hittite paers to see if they noted the phygians in their time in Anatolia
    .
    i agree with you on the seal

    Thats what I said, phrygians went to anatolia from the balkans. Phrygians are mentioned as being right there alongisde the rest of them during the Trojan war, the same time as Dardanians and Mysians.

    It seems weird to argue that Phrygians went to Anatolia but Dardanians didn't, despite all having their correlates in the Balkans.




    And Phorcys and godlike Ascanius led the Phrygians from afar, from Ascania, and were eager to fight in the press of battle (Homer, the Iliad, 2.856 - ca. 700 BCE )


    Ere now have I journeyed to the land of Phrygia, rich in vines, and there I saw in multitudes the Phrygian warriors, masters of glancing steeds, even the people of Otreus and godlike Mygdon, that were then encamped along the banks of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 3.181 - ca. 700 BCE )


    Verily thou wilt lead me yet further on to one of the well-peopled cities of Phrygia or lovely Maeonia, if there too there be some one of mortal men who is dear to thee, seeing that now Menelaus hath conquered goodly Alexander, and is minded to lead hateful me to his home (Homer, the Iliad, 3.381 - ca. 700 BCE )

    And towards Thymbre fell the lot of the Lycians and the lordly Mysians, and the Phrygians that fight from chariots and the Maeonians, lords of chariots (Homer, the Iliad, 10.412 - ca. 700 BCE )

    And while he pondered thus there drew nigh to him Phoebus Apollo in the likeness of a young man and a strong, even of Asius, that was uncle to horse-taming Hector, and own brother to Hecabe, but son of Dymas, that dwelt in Phrygia by the streams of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 16.698 - ca. 700 BCE )

    Of old all mortal men were wont to tell of Priam's city, for its wealth of gold, its wealth of bronze; but now are its goodly treasures perished from its homes, and lo, possessions full many have been sold away to Phrygia and lovely Maeonia, since great Zeus waxed wroth (Homer, the Iliad, 18.270 - ca. 700 BCE )

    'And of thee, old sire, we hear that of old thou wast blest; how of all that toward the sea Lesbos, the seat of Macar, encloseth, and Phrygia in the upland, and the boundless Hellespont, over all these folk, men say, thou, old sire, wast preeminent by reason of thy wealth and thy sons (Homer, the Iliad, 24.525 - ca. 700 BCE )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thats what I said, phrygians went to anatolia from the balkans. Phrygians are mentioned as being right there alongisde the rest of them during the Trojan war, the same time as Dardanians and Mysians.
    It seems weird to argue that Phrygians went to Anatolia but Dardanians didn't, despite all having their correlates in the Balkans.
    And Phorcys and godlike Ascanius led the Phrygians from afar, from Ascania, and were eager to fight in the press of battle (Homer, the Iliad, 2.856 - ca. 700 BCE )
    Ere now have I journeyed to the land of Phrygia, rich in vines, and there I saw in multitudes the Phrygian warriors, masters of glancing steeds, even the people of Otreus and godlike Mygdon, that were then encamped along the banks of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 3.181 - ca. 700 BCE )
    Verily thou wilt lead me yet further on to one of the well-peopled cities of Phrygia or lovely Maeonia, if there too there be some one of mortal men who is dear to thee, seeing that now Menelaus hath conquered goodly Alexander, and is minded to lead hateful me to his home (Homer, the Iliad, 3.381 - ca. 700 BCE )
    And towards Thymbre fell the lot of the Lycians and the lordly Mysians, and the Phrygians that fight from chariots and the Maeonians, lords of chariots (Homer, the Iliad, 10.412 - ca. 700 BCE )
    And while he pondered thus there drew nigh to him Phoebus Apollo in the likeness of a young man and a strong, even of Asius, that was uncle to horse-taming Hector, and own brother to Hecabe, but son of Dymas, that dwelt in Phrygia by the streams of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 16.698 - ca. 700 BCE )
    Of old all mortal men were wont to tell of Priam's city, for its wealth of gold, its wealth of bronze; but now are its goodly treasures perished from its homes, and lo, possessions full many have been sold away to Phrygia and lovely Maeonia, since great Zeus waxed wroth (Homer, the Iliad, 18.270 - ca. 700 BCE )
    'And of thee, old sire, we hear that of old thou wast blest; how of all that toward the sea Lesbos, the seat of Macar, encloseth, and Phrygia in the upland, and the boundless Hellespont, over all these folk, men say, thou, old sire, wast preeminent by reason of thy wealth and thy sons (Homer, the Iliad, 24.525 - ca. 700 BCE )
    I am saying that I need to see hittite texts at the time of the trojan war and see if Phygians or something like them exists
    How can dardanians speak Luwian if the Troas lands ( where troy and dardania where ) was not luwian in language?
    I am starting to think it was either a proto-thraco language or something completely different ............it could be proto-ionion Greek ........need to check what samothrace spoke at that time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am saying that I need to see hittite texts at the time of the trojan war and see if Phygians or something like them exists
    How can dardanians speak Luwian if the Troas lands ( where troy and dardania where ) was not luwian in language?
    I am starting to think it was either a proto-thraco language or something completely different ............it could be proto-ionion Greek ........need to check what samothrace spoke at that time
    Seek and you shall find

    /phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian-hieroglyphic-inscription-bronze-age.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am saying that I need to see hittite texts at the time of the trojan war and see if Phygians or something like them exists
    How can dardanians speak Luwian if the Troas lands ( where troy and dardania where ) was not luwian in language?
    I am starting to think it was either a proto-thraco language or something completely different ............it could be proto-ionion Greek ........need to check what samothrace spoke at that time
    There is no hittite texts about Phygians...
    .
    According to the historian Herodotus and the geographer Strabo, Phrygians were a European nation, and were called as “Bhrygians” before they came to Anatolia. Phrygians are assumed to have arrived in Anatolia most probably passing through Macedonia – Thrace and the Straits in 1200s BC, to have set up temporary settlements in Thrace and in the south of Marmara in the early years, and later to have spread into the interiors of Anatolia. The time when Phrygians, which were in the form of little monarchies tried to form the first political unity in Anatolia was in 750s BC.
    .
    according to the above, the Phygians moved to Anatolia after the trojan war and after the demise of the Hittites

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    Quoting myself from a PM:
    what is the chance that the modern Albanian population, or at least the Gheg majority, find their ancient relatives, and populace genesis in Western Anatolia >1300BC.

    This would explain grammar and language similarities with ancient Greek, Armenian by geographical location.

    Also, the Dardans are mentioned in the Iliad as one of the two ruling dynasties in Troy. They fought on the side of "Pelasgian", Thracian, and Moesian tribes in what could be considered the first "World War", even Aetheopians participated.

    That geographic region between Scumander, Dardaneles, and mount Ida is precisely where a huge technological leap took place ~3000 years ago, with the bronze age separation of Gold from Silver, creating the first reliable currency, and thus setting in motion the Troyan War... I highly doubt such an "international" war for the time would take place as a siege for 10Years between countless belligerents simply for a woman, there must have been underlying conflict of interest.

    How wrong am I in pursuing this path of research? Is it a blind path?

    Based on the genetic and mythological evidence I have seen:

    EV-13 and J2B were two populations which melted in western Anatolia to create proto-Albanians. J2B most likely were bull, and Baal worshiping Caucasians, pastoralist by sustenance with great knowledge of metallurgy and smithing. While EV-13 made its way through Crete, having previously nested among Palestine and Egypt, if not Ethiopia even earlier. E-V13, IMO, would have been farmers. The niche compatibility could have made for their coexistence in Western Anatolia. J2B however would have come to the Balkans in 2 ways: One through the Carpathian gap in Bassarabia having gone around the black sea, creating the proto-Thracians, and Gaets and proto Daco-Romanians as well as potentially the other Thracians and Illyrians. While the other branch would have gotten to Dardania through Ilium, Macedon, Vardar , Dardania. By the time they meet again around >700 BC they have common elements of culture, but they would not have had the same language... hence the Illyrian/Thracian divide.

    According to Iliad this is plausible...
    According to Argonautica this is also plausible... If Aenea could stop in Dardania(Kosovo) before stopping in the Berber region and finally in Etruria during that time period, who is to say proto-Albanians could not have done the same thing...

    Both Aenea, and Hyllus were from asia minor, descendants of Heracles. The feud between Heracle and the dynasties of Argos imo forshadow the East and West divide that would follow in the coming ages under many avatars. In one of which avatars ancient Greek and proto-Albanian would have begun to differentiate, reflecting the aegean-asia minor divide. Furthermore the Dorians are considered by many a historian, as descendants of Heracles, throguh Hyllus, and finally Hyllis... which could easily be the progenitor of the people proto-greeks from Argos would have called firstly Dorians, and lastly Illyrian. Furthermore... Iliad is named after the City of Ilium. Oh did I mention "Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnese... They withdrew to Thesaly, where Aegimus, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons voluntarily submitted to Hyllus" Meaning the same people initially knows as the Dorians, were descendants of Heracles from Asia Minor. These Dorians would later be ruled, by another son of Heracles recently moved from Asia minor named Hyllus.... Meaning there is a gene flow as well as cultural continuity, yet without a cohesive self identification as "Illyrians".

    If indeed the proto-Albanian language was in Troy 1300 BC we would find some evidence today. Thesaurus one of the largest dictionaries implies "thesaurus" is derived from ancient greek, of unknown origin. Yet in Albanian Thes - Bag, Ar - Gold. Thesar - Treasure. We would also find naming continuity between Troyan/Ilian-->Dorian-->Illyrian-->Albanian. For that we have Darda as a repeating root, and similar toponyms based on fruit Grape Rrush - Ragush - Ragusa, Peach - Pshka/Pjeshk - Rashka , Aegim - Dawn as personal name, Hylas, Hylus, Yllis variations Star as personal name. Agron as both King in Illyria 400BC and King of Lydia 1300BC. "Agron (fl. c.1192 BC) was a legendary king of Lydia who is named by Herodotus as the first of the Lydian Heraclid dynasty. Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession."
    Furthermore even the name Tehuta, queen in Lydia,repeats with the Illyrians some 1000 years later as Teuta.


    -
    /bibleplaces . com/ sardis / Mountain with name Sardis in Asia minor... looks like a saw/sharp. Sar mountains Macedonia/Kosovo/Albania also look like a saw.... The endonym or toponym comes from protoIndEuropean for Sharp... similar in pronunciation and meaning to to Middle Age words such as Shpata/Spata/Sopata in Albanian, and Sparta in Classical Greece, with equivalents also in Latin. There is equivalent of the word in ancient Persian which I have sadly forgot.

    I hope I have not made a fool of myself, yet constructive criticism is welcome.

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    SOME HERE MUST PUT THE TIMING,

    1) proto-BRYGIANS EXISTED NORTH PROTO GREEKS
    IN SHARD MOUNTAINS meaning diged land compare Greek Σκορδυλη Shard in Greek Skord
    2) Brygians left the land pushed by Illyrians to southern areas nearby Thracians and Makedonians
    Edessa (water city in Brygian)
    3) the same time that Karanos creates his kingdom in Pieria and Ematheia Brygians move Eastern and move to minor Asia to Phrygia
    4) The remaing Brygians 'enter Makedonian Kingdom' as ΜΥΓΔΟΝΕΣ -MYGdonia (mugdones in sound)
    5)The Gordium is the place where Alexander tried to take Phrygians with his side, cause by legend Makedonians and Brygians were considered allies,

    So
    Proto-home of Brygians is what is today North Albania Skorda lake
    the historical times they were pushed by Illyrians and primary their land is today parts of N Epirus, Makedonia and Fyrom (southern city is Edessa)
    by Karanos times they already abandoned Epirus and Paionia and moved to what is named today Mygdonia and minor Asia.

    Brygians were considered part/bone structure of Makedonian kingdom, and assimilated to it.
    Alexander expected Phrygians to do so


    KARANOS founder of Makedonian Kingdom Found Brygians at Edessa.
    so Brygians surely existed at 800 BC in Makedonia,

    GENERALLY IT IS CONSIDERED THAT BRYGIAN MOVE HAPPENED SAME TIME OR AFTER DORIAN DESCENT.
    most possible with the
    1rst Colonization or after it,

    So there is no possibility that Brygians moved to minor Asia before 1200 BC
    since belong to the non Mycenean, non Minoan, world of S balkans,
    but next to Proto-Greek world


    their moved is about 1200 -750 BC



    On the other hand
    if we use Diakonov's historical theory
    then Brygians never existed
    but Only Phrygians

    YET
    IF WE USE R. WOODARD work
    Then Latin Brygian and Greek comes from the same family,
    meaning
    MAYBE PROTO-GREEK WERE MORE NORTH THAN GEORGIEV PLACE IT,
    AND KEPT SOME OLDER SOUNDS, in North Dialects.
    SO SOUTHERN GREEKS LIKE HERODOTOS RECOGN AS BRYGIAN

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