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Thread: Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Quoting myself from a PM:
    what is the chance that the modern Albanian population, or at least the Gheg majority, find their ancient relatives, and populace genesis in Western Anatolia >1300BC.

    This would explain grammar and language similarities with ancient Greek, Armenian by geographical location.

    Also, the Dardans are mentioned in the Iliad as one of the two ruling dynasties in Troy. They fought on the side of "Pelasgian", Thracian, and Moesian tribes in what could be considered the first "World War", even Aetheopians participated.

    That geographic region between Scumander, Dardaneles, and mount Ida is precisely where a huge technological leap took place ~3000 years ago, with the bronze age separation of Gold from Silver, creating the first reliable currency, and thus setting in motion the Troyan War... I highly doubt such an "international" war for the time would take place as a siege for 10Years between countless belligerents simply for a woman, there must have been underlying conflict of interest.

    How wrong am I in pursuing this path of research? Is it a blind path?
    Actually I think you may be seeing the evidences "upside down": even if it is true that Pre-Albanian speakers were Dardanians and were in Troy (Northwestern Anatolia) by 1300-1200 B.C., what the video posted in the beginning of this thread claims and I also think is much more likely is that they were newcomers from the Balkans, so the movement, if it happened, was probably Balkans > Anatolia, not the other way around. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, the Greeks, Phrygians, Mysians, Thracians and other peoples who were probably already established since long ago in the Balkans migrated to Western Anatolia. If the Dardanians were part of that process, they also came from Dardania or whatever was their early homeland in the Balkans (maybe a bit more to the south, as they seem to have had open access to the Aegean). Armenians themselves may have come from the Balkans, considering that in the Bronze Age their future territory was already inhabited by literate societies (Hurrians, Urartians, Anatolian IEs) and there is simply no Armenian-like inscription or name before the end of the Bronze Age there.

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    Mr I don't source my points, give me sources.

    Give me first text that mentions Pyrgians or Bryges or Bregas or any variant you like >500 bc north of Argos. If you are going to use Herodotus mentioning how he thinks Bryges are Thracian and come from the Balkans does not count. He mentions them ~800 years after they have already been in Anatolia, for 500 years even ruling first in the Heracle Dynasty the later in the Gyges dynasty in Lydian, Troad territory.

    And also please for the love of god use sources. I am pretty skeptical to bull... on the net.

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    Guys we have to choose

    brygians left Before illyrians?

    2) brygians moved before or After 1rst Greek colonization?

    3)If Phrygians are the people that Diakonov Describes,
    Then there is no Connectivity among Balkans and minor Asia
    meaning that Phrygians in that case are older than Brygians
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Actually I think you may be seeing the evidences "upside down": even if it is true that Pre-Albanian speakers were Dardanians and were in Troy (Northwestern Anatolia) by 1300-1200 B.C., what the video posted in the beginning of this thread claims and I also think is much more likely is that they were newcomers from the Balkans, so the movement, if it happened, was probably Balkans > Anatolia, not the other way around. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, the Greeks, Phrygians, Mysians, Thracians and other peoples who were probably already established since long ago in the Balkans migrated to Western Anatolia. If the Dardanians were part of that process, they also came from Dardania or whatever was their early homeland in the Balkans (maybe a bit more to the south, as they seem to have had open access to the Aegean). Armenians themselves may have come from the Balkans, considering that in the Bronze Age their future territory was already inhabited by literate societies (Hurrians, Urartians, Anatolian IEs) and there is simply no Armenian-like inscription or name before the end of the Bronze Age there.
    Fair point, either way all I am looking for is the truth, I got no agenda behind my posts...

    If someone can mention when were the Dardans first mentioned in the Balkans?
    When were they first mentioned to be in the Troad?

    "e Royal House of Troy was also divided into two branches, that of the Dardanoi, and that of the Trojans (their city being called Troy, or sometimes Ilion/Ilium). The House of the Dardanoi (its members being the Dardanids, Gr: Δαρδανίδαι; Lt: Dardanidae) was older than the House of Troy, but Troy later became more powerful"


    Everyone here is so put off by Serb propaganda about "From Anatolia" they seem to be put off by the idea completely even if its >3000 years ago. You would have me believe that Illyrians at their peak and mentioned around 7-4 century BC were the ancestral lands to people who had the height of their kingdoms 3-4k years ago... I really do not know what to say. Hisarlik means place of Castles, you want me to believe what the Seljuks named Hisarlik, that has Troy under Troy in archeology going far back from anything found even in Argos Greece, or Dardania or Modern Albania were a result of what direction of migration?

    I am after the truth... not we were Autochtonous BS .... The only Autochtones in EU were Neanderthals... and what happened to them... I guess the truth will come out in time.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There is no hittite texts about Phygians...
    .
    According to the historian Herodotus and the geographer Strabo, Phrygians were a European nation, and were called as “Bhrygians” before they came to Anatolia. Phrygians are assumed to have arrived in Anatolia most probably passing through Macedonia – Thrace and the Straits in 1200s BC, to have set up temporary settlements in Thrace and in the south of Marmara in the early years, and later to have spread into the interiors of Anatolia. The time when Phrygians, which were in the form of little monarchies tried to form the first political unity in Anatolia was in 750s BC.
    .
    according to the above, the Phygians moved to Anatolia after the trojan war and after the demise of the Hittites
    Something that is really intriguing is that the Trojan War (the latest phase of Troy which seems to have been destroyed by fire) can be estimated to have happened around 1180 B.C. And the end of the Bronze Age, possibly in the 1300-1200 B.C., is exactly the period when arguably Balkanic peoples like Phrygians, Armenians and maybe a few others (Greeks included, who were clearly invaders in Troy) started to arrive in Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Guys we have to choose

    brygians left Before illyrians?

    2) brygians moved before or After 1rst Greek colonization?

    3)If Phrygians are the people that Diakonov Describes,
    Then there is no Connectivity among Balkans and minor Asia
    meaning that Phrygians in that case are older than Brygians

    You see what I mean? Thanks for the common sense... I'm not crazy after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Something that is really intriguing is that the Trojan War (the latest phase of Troy which seems to have been destroyed by fire) can be estimated to have happened around 1180 B.C. And the end of the Bronze Age, possibly in the 1300-1200 B.C., is exactly the period when arguably Balkanic peoples like Phrygians, Armenians and maybe a few others (Greeks included, who were clearly invaders in Troy) started to arrive in Anatolia.
    Check this out... these people after the sack of Troy might have continued all the way to Palestine and Egypt in what Biblically is described as the Sea Peoples. https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...ronze-age.html

    I have a feeling we will learn a lot more about Albanian and Proto Albanian and Proto Greek cultures the moment we descipher Linear B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Mr I don't source my points, give me sources.

    Give me first text that mentions Pyrgians or Bryges or Bregas or any variant you like >500 bc north of Argos. If you are going to use Herodotus mentioning how he thinks Bryges are Thracian and come from the Balkans does not count. He mentions them ~800 years after they have already been in Anatolia, for 500 years even ruling first in the Heracle Dynasty the later in the Gyges dynasty in Lydian, Troad territory.

    And also please for the love of god use sources. I am pretty skeptical to bull... on the net.
    if you sent me a privy message...for some reason i cannot respond....so see below

    a possibility...since the trojan war as a trade war for access to the black sea
    but as per 2017 paper , illyrian origin in black sea modern moldova lands...they arrived in central europe ( noricum, which is east austria ) circa 1600BC......they are part of the Halstatt culture with the celts.
    The Dardanians are anatolians, via origins in Samothrace.......so origins of illyrians and dardanians difer.............besides Greek historians even called Epirotes as illyrian, it was a greek term for the northern barbaric people.
    I am here to seek the truth and the truth is not what albanians where taught as propaganda by their government in the 1970's that they are Illyrians. I have been saying for over 2 years that albanian origin in Europe could only have come initially from the dardanians who also had ownership of the fertile lands called Moesia, lands that thracians and macedonians wanted as their own
    even all medieval and renaissanece italian literature called albanians epirotes....clearly between roman times or prior to the medieval Albanians ( dardanians ) formed some sort of union with epirotes
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    if you sent me a privy message...for some reason i cannot respond....so see below

    a possibility...since the trojan war as a trade war for access to the black sea
    but as per 2017 paper , illyrian origin in black sea modern moldova lands...they arrived in central europe ( noricum, which is east austria ) circa 1600BC......they are part of the Halstatt culture with the celts.
    The Dardanians are anatolians, via origins in Samothrace.......so origins of illyrians and dardanians difer.............besides Greek historians even called Epirotes as illyrian, it was a greek term for the northern barbaric people.
    I am here to seek the truth and the truth is not what albanians where taught as propaganda by their government in the 1970's that they are Illyrians. I have been saying for over 2 years that albanian origin in Europe could only have come initially from the dardanians who also had ownership of the fertile lands called Moesia, lands that thracians and macedonians wanted as their own
    even all medieval and renaissanece italian literature called albanians epirotes....clearly between roman times or prior to the medieval Albanians ( dardanians ) formed some sort of union with epirotes
    Apologies again for quoting myself from another thread, yes it was me who sent you the message. And I fully agree with you. I do believe part of the J2B2 took another way into the balkans, around the black sea, through the carpatians into Dacia and Gaeta. I will quote myself for convenience.

    "I suspect J2B2 was present ~>3300 years ago among proto-Thracian, proto-Illyrian/Pelasgian, proto-Dacian and Gaet populations... stemming from a common origin in the caucasus >4k years ago, and having taken two separate paths to the balkans, leading to the divide among Thracian/Dacian/Illyrian populations when they arriven the balaksn destination. One path of J2B2 would have taken would be around the black sea, through the Bassarabian gap in the Carpathian mountains as shephers, while the other path would have been through western Anatolia into Macedon - Vardar - Dardania. Hence the similarties, as well as the many differences from modern Romanian and Albanian, as well as the obvious pre-Slavic substratum in slavic languages today in the Balkans.

    In Albanian Bregas, means costal people... Yet Breg, or Berg means Mountain and Castel in the respective proto-slavic and proto-germanic languages respectively. Bryges were indeed living in the coast, while Dardans were landlocked in Kosovo.

    "Bryges or Briges (Greek: Βρύγοι or Βρίγες) is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phyrigans, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia"

    Thracian tribes, Pelasgian Tribes, were among the allies of the Troyans, among whom the Dardans were one of the two leading dynasties ~3300 years ago according to homer. Among the people that fought in the Trojan War these groups probably had an alliance based on common culture or shared values/ways of life, or even origin. If the hypothesis I gave above is to be taken seriously, J2B2 segment of Albanian population were similar in Blood and in language to the Thracians as well as Dacians and Gaets, so I would suspect J2B2 to be present among the pastoral communities in the region and possibly all the way to Ukraine, as well as Anatolia, with a common ancestor in Caucasus, yet differentiated do to the path they took into the Balkans to the point where Thracian and Illyrian had to be classified as different languages."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Quoting myself from a PM:
    what is the chance that the modern Albanian population, or at least the Gheg majority, find their ancient relatives, and populace genesis in Western Anatolia >1300BC.
    This would explain grammar and language similarities with ancient Greek, Armenian by geographical location.
    Also, the Dardans are mentioned in the Iliad as one of the two ruling dynasties in Troy. They fought on the side of "Pelasgian", Thracian, and Moesian tribes in what could be considered the first "World War", even Aetheopians participated.
    That geographic region between Scumander, Dardaneles, and mount Ida is precisely where a huge technological leap took place ~3000 years ago, with the bronze age separation of Gold from Silver, creating the first reliable currency, and thus setting in motion the Troyan War... I highly doubt such an "international" war for the time would take place as a siege for 10Years between countless belligerents simply for a woman, there must have been underlying conflict of interest.
    How wrong am I in pursuing this path of research? Is it a blind path?
    Based on the genetic and mythological evidence I have seen:
    EV-13 and J2B were two populations which melted in western Anatolia to create proto-Albanians. J2B most likely were bull, and Baal worshiping Caucasians, pastoralist by sustenance with great knowledge of metallurgy and smithing. While EV-13 made its way through Crete, having previously nested among Palestine and Egypt, if not Ethiopia even earlier. E-V13, IMO, would have been farmers. The niche compatibility could have made for their coexistence in Western Anatolia. J2B however would have come to the Balkans in 2 ways: One through the Carpathian gap in Bassarabia having gone around the black sea, creating the proto-Thracians, and Gaets and proto Daco-Romanians as well as potentially the other Thracians and Illyrians. While the other branch would have gotten to Dardania through Ilium, Macedon, Vardar , Dardania. By the time they meet again around >700 BC they have common elements of culture, but they would not have had the same language... hence the Illyrian/Thracian divide.
    According to Iliad this is plausible...
    According to Argonautica this is also plausible... If Aenea could stop in Dardania(Kosovo) before stopping in the Berber region and finally in Etruria during that time period, who is to say proto-Albanians could not have done the same thing...
    Both Aenea, and Hyllus were from asia minor, descendants of Heracles. The feud between Heracle and the dynasties of Argos imo forshadow the East and West divide that would follow in the coming ages under many avatars. In one of which avatars ancient Greek and proto-Albanian would have begun to differentiate, reflecting the aegean-asia minor divide. Furthermore the Dorians are considered by many a historian, as descendants of Heracles, throguh Hyllus, and finally Hyllis... which could easily be the progenitor of the people proto-greeks from Argos would have called firstly Dorians, and lastly Illyrian. Furthermore... Iliad is named after the City of Ilium. Oh did I mention "Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnese... They withdrew to Thesaly, where Aegimus, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons voluntarily submitted to Hyllus" Meaning the same people initially knows as the Dorians, were descendants of Heracles from Asia Minor. These Dorians would later be ruled, by another son of Heracles recently moved from Asia minor named Hyllus.... Meaning there is a gene flow as well as cultural continuity, yet without a cohesive self identification as "Illyrians".
    If indeed the proto-Albanian language was in Troy 1300 BC we would find some evidence today. Thesaurus one of the largest dictionaries implies "thesaurus" is derived from ancient greek, of unknown origin. Yet in Albanian Thes - Bag, Ar - Gold. Thesar - Treasure. We would also find naming continuity between Troyan/Ilian-->Dorian-->Illyrian-->Albanian. For that we have Darda as a repeating root, and similar toponyms based on fruit Grape Rrush - Ragush - Ragusa, Peach - Pshka/Pjeshk - Rashka , Aegim - Dawn as personal name, Hylas, Hylus, Yllis variations Star as personal name. Agron as both King in Illyria 400BC and King of Lydia 1300BC. "Agron (fl. c.1192 BC) was a legendary king of Lydia who is named by Herodotus as the first of the Lydian Heraclid dynasty. Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession."
    Furthermore even the name Tehuta, queen in Lydia,repeats with the Illyrians some 1000 years later as Teuta.

    -
    /bibleplaces . com/ sardis / Mountain with name Sardis in Asia minor... looks like a saw/sharp. Sar mountains Macedonia/Kosovo/Albania also look like a saw.... The endonym or toponym comes from protoIndEuropean for Sharp... similar in pronunciation and meaning to to Middle Age words such as Shpata/Spata/Sopata in Albanian, and Sparta in Classical Greece, with equivalents also in Latin. There is equivalent of the word in ancient Persian which I have sadly forgot.
    I hope I have not made a fool of myself, yet constructive criticism is welcome.
    There a 2 thoughts on the language in the troas ( troy ) , some say it is Luwian and some say it is not , Trojans neighbours along the coast looking at europe are...Mysians, then thracians, then Palaic ...........this ( palaic )being as some say a sub-branch of Luwian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There a 2 thoughts on the language in the troas ( troy ) , some say it is Luwian and some say it is not , Trojans neighbours along the coast looking at europe are...Mysians, then thracians, then Palaic ...........this ( palaic )being as some say a sub-branch of Luwian
    "Mysia (UK /ˈmɪsiə/, US /ˈmɪʒə/ or /ˈmiːʒə/; Greek: Μυσία, Latin: Mysia, Turkish: Misya) was a region in the northwest of ancient Asia Minor[1] (Anatolia, Asian part of modern Turkey). It was located on the south coast of the Sea of Marmara. It was bounded by Bithynia on the east, Phrygia on the southeast, Lydia on the south, Aeolis on the southwest, Troad on the west and by the Propontis on the north. In ancient times it was inhabited by the ---- Mysians, Phrygians, Aeolian Greeks and other groups. ---"

    That quote implies at least 3 nationalities.... Phyrgians, Mysians, and Aeolian Greeks. Also here you can find cognates for Olympys as a mountain which might predate Olympus in Argos.

    I suspect both proto-Alban and proto-Greek tribes took similar path into mainland Europe, around the same era. Although proto-Albanian imo sided in Asia minor through their J2 lineage, and Crete-->Asia Minor through their E-V13 Lineage, while the proto-Greeks in Argos, Aechea+ Morea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Actually I think you may be seeing the evidences "upside down": even if it is true that Pre-Albanian speakers were Dardanians and were in Troy (Northwestern Anatolia) by 1300-1200 B.C., what the video posted in the beginning of this thread claims and I also think is much more likely is that they were newcomers from the Balkans, so the movement, if it happened, was probably Balkans > Anatolia, not the other way around. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, the Greeks, Phrygians, Mysians, Thracians and other peoples who were probably already established since long ago in the Balkans migrated to Western Anatolia. If the Dardanians were part of that process, they also came from Dardania or whatever was their early homeland in the Balkans (maybe a bit more to the south, as they seem to have had open access to the Aegean). Armenians themselves may have come from the Balkans, considering that in the Bronze Age their future territory was already inhabited by literate societies (Hurrians, Urartians, Anatolian IEs) and there is simply no Armenian-like inscription or name before the end of the Bronze Age there.
    is not Hurrian, urartians ( from lake Selva to Lake Van ) associated with luwian and ...........hatti with Hittite ?
    why could not the armenians be either a luwian and/or hurrian people either from modern armenia or Cilicia ( SE Turkey ) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    if you sent me a privy message...for some reason i cannot respond....so see below

    a possibility...since the trojan war as a trade war for access to the black sea
    but as per 2017 paper , illyrian origin in black sea modern moldova lands...they arrived in central europe ( noricum, which is east austria ) circa 1600BC......they are part of the Halstatt culture with the celts.
    The Dardanians are anatolians, via origins in Samothrace.......so origins of illyrians and dardanians difer.............besides Greek historians even called Epirotes as illyrian, it was a greek term for the northern barbaric people.
    I am here to seek the truth and the truth is not what albanians where taught as propaganda by their government in the 1970's that they are Illyrians. I have been saying for over 2 years that albanian origin in Europe could only have come initially from the dardanians who also had ownership of the fertile lands called Moesia, lands that thracians and macedonians wanted as their own
    even all medieval and renaissanece italian literature called albanians epirotes....clearly between roman times or prior to the medieval Albanians ( dardanians ) formed some sort of union with epirotes

    1705-1715
    Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:
    Correspondence on the Albanian Language



    1774
    Johann Thunmann:
    On the History and Language
    of the Albanians and Vlachs



    You think that even these two scholars of the XVIII century(among many prominent names) are victims of the propaganda by Albanian government in the 1970's?

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    So much for arguing the points instead of jumping all over the place with rhetorical BS.

    I went out of my way to quote my problem for the Bryges moved from Balkans to Anatolia version, basing it on archaeology, as well as myth, and even questioning the 400BC Herodotus quote about the origin of people 800 Years prior to him. The Dardans in the Illiad are not even mentioned mainland... the Thracians, as well as the "Pellasgians" are... Come on the sources are plentiful lets not make this a battle of 19th century propaganda, be it French, German, Albanian or Greek. The truth can be found independently, following the facts, as long as they are consistent.

    How some people, from my own ancestry believe Dardanians in Troy 1300BC have no connection to Dardanians in Kosovo 700BC REALLY AMUSES ME.

    Same with the Phyrgian, Breagas, Brygas, whatever u want to call them for the costal proto-Albos.

    I believe Gaets, and Ghegs derive from the same etnonym... deriving from Gyges... Founder of the second line of Heraclid dynasty that would rule for 5 generations in Lydia... after The Agron dynasty ruled for 22 generations. Gyges was supposedly a Shepard from Thrace...

    Shkurt e shqip Gega, Leka, Agron, Ylli, Agim... jan emra proto shqiptar. Aleksandri I Madh nuk ishte Aleksandri I pare.... Po i 3 ti vetem ne Maqedoni, e paramendo sa Aleksandra ka pas para ketij Aleksandri? A mendoni me te vertet se si fjal origjinon ne Ballkan? Se un e dyshoj. Po syte i mbaj hapur, se ne fund atyre ju besoj.

    "Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus... They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons voluntarily submitted to Hyllus"

    Agim. Agron, Hyllus, Hylli, Ilium, Teuta. A L E K S A N D E R???... all the way in Asia minor 700+ years before any mention in the Balkans. Surely at least part of our modern Albanian Genes and Ethnoculture took this path...

    Edit: Or I am wrong, and Bryges more than 3000 years ago were able from their pastoral economy to go from the Balkans to Lydia and become rulers there, taking down the most fortification civilization of the time xD and keepping their dynasties on the throne for 27 generations. Such madlads. I mean it only took a whole League of Peoples and 10 Years, and a sneaky Horse, and an archaic world war, to bring Troy down, but the Bryges had it EZPZ.

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    TROY VII (Balkanic/Troia-culture about 1200 - 950 BC):

    Troy VII phases VIIb1, VIIb2, and recebtly VIIb3 show continuity from what preceded them; for example, parts of the fortification walls remain in use. Yet there are significant new cultural elemens in both the lower and the upper levels. Handmade pottery suddenly re-appears after 1000 years of the potter's wheel. The lower parts of the walls are now faced with irregular, vertically-placed stone slabs.

    In the building-phases (VIIb1-VIIb2) there are also changes in wall-building techniques, with the lower parts of the circuit-wall now being faced with irregular, vertically placed stone slabs (orthostats). How Troy VII1b perished (around the 1130 BC) is unclear. There are not clear evidence of destruction whether by earthquake or by human hands and probably the settlement was taken over by a related cultural group without serious disturbance. Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in south-eastern Europe.

    Similarly, a number of bronze axe heads found by Schliemann, although their context of discovery is not certain, have been attributed to Troy VIIb2 and have their best parallels in Late Bronze Age Hungary. Buckelkeramik has a parallels across the Hellespont it appears that its makers may have migrated into the Troad from Thrace, to which in turn they may have moved from further west. Troy VIIb2 was destroyed by fire. Conceivably the settlement was taken by force and put to the torch around 1100 BC.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    TROY VII (Balkanic/Troia-culture about 1200 - 950 BC):

    Troy VII phases VIIb1, VIIb2, and recebtly VIIb3 show continuity from what preceded them; for example, parts of the fortification walls remain in use. Yet there are significant new cultural elemens in both the lower and the upper levels. Handmade pottery suddenly re-appears after 1000 years of the potter's wheel. The lower parts of the walls are now faced with irregular, vertically-placed stone slabs.

    In the building-phases (VIIb1-VIIb2) there are also changes in wall-building techniques, with the lower parts of the circuit-wall now being faced with irregular, vertically placed stone slabs (orthostats). How Troy VII1b perished (around the 1130 BC) is unclear. There are not clear evidence of destruction whether by earthquake or by human hands and probably the settlement was taken over by a related cultural group without serious disturbance. Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in south-eastern Europe.

    Similarly, a number of bronze axe heads found by Schliemann, although their context of discovery is not certain, have been attributed to Troy VIIb2 and have their best parallels in Late Bronze Age Hungary. Buckelkeramik has a parallels across the Hellespont it appears that its makers may have migrated into the Troad from Thrace, to which in turn they may have moved from further west. Troy VIIb2 was destroyed by fire. Conceivably the settlement was taken by force and put to the torch around 1100 BC.
    Rrofsh per argumentet.
    Thank you for the arguments.

    "Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in south-eastern Europe. " What is the nature of this relation? To me at this point it is obvious that there is a connection between Troy and Modern Albanians although what is confusing me is the direction of the relationship as well as the chronology.

    If parallels are to be found in south-eastern Europe, what is the chronological arrow? East to west, or west to east.

    Furthermore, I fear making deduction based on pottery, or axes, since the Troad at the time was one of the most important centers of trade. Yet that argument is interesting.

    So my question is since we know places such as Apollonia were founded after the sack of Troy, do we have evidence of pre 1300 stone buildings in the Balkans, or SE Europe as you stated? If we did have these parallel stones at the base of the walls style of building anywhere near Dardania (Kosov) or Northner Albania, or Epirus preceding 1320-1280 we could imply something otherwise it raises more questions than anything.

    Furthermore, how do we know there was a "change" of leadership circa 1300BC when there is no war signs such as fire or anything. From what Homer stated and later characters parroted Dardans in Troy were an older dynasty even than the Trojans, we are talking double digit generations.

    Nevertheless, thanks for starting this thread and taking the time to argument your points.
    Hopefully I am not being illogical or foolish with my arguments.

    At the end of the day we might never know, or the relationship could be much more complicated than we anticipate, with East-West movements not limited to countable instances sourced in history. But rather interchangeably, after all there was no concept of Nation at the time, and what was the state was nothing more than extended family hierarchies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Rrofsh per argumentet.
    Thank you for the arguments.

    "Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in south-eastern Europe. " What is the nature of this relation? To me at this point it is obvious that there is a connection between Troy and Modern Albanians although what is confusing me is the direction of the relationship as well as the chronology.

    If parallels are to be found in south-eastern Europe, what is the chronological arrow? East to west, or west to east.

    Furthermore, I fear making deduction based on pottery, or axes, since the Troad at the time was one of the most important centers of trade. Yet that argument is interesting.

    So my question is since we know places such as Apollonia were founded after the sack of Troy, do we have evidence of pre 1300 stone buildings in the Balkans, or SE Europe as you stated? If we did have these parallel stones at the base of the walls style of building anywhere near Dardania (Kosov) or Northner Albania, or Epirus preceding 1320-1280 we could imply something otherwise it raises more questions than anything.

    Furthermore, how do we know there was a "change" of leadership circa 1300BC when there is no war signs such as fire or anything. From what Homer stated and later characters parroted Dardans in Troy were an older dynasty even than the Trojans, we are talking double digit generations.

    Nevertheless, thanks for starting this thread and taking the time to argument your points.
    Hopefully I am not being illogical or foolish with my arguments.

    At the end of the day we might never know, or the relationship could be much more complicated than we anticipate, with East-West movements not limited to countable instances sourced in history. But rather interchangeably, after all there was no concept of Nation at the time, and what was the state was nothing more than extended family hierarchies.
    The migration you proposed for J2b and EV13 from anatolia into the balkans is not supported. They are found in the Balkans since bronze age.

    The battle of kadesh mentions Dardanians in NW Anatolia in 1270 BC, so this is 70 years before the beginning of the "Balkanic Troy" archeological period (1200 - 950 BC).
    So maybe they came a bit before this time.

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    "Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession" Strikingly similar to your calculation... Makes me reconsider my stance. Any additional readings you would recommend?

    Where do you think our J2B2 and E-V13 ancestors were say 4-5k years ago? What about before that? In case we were in the Balkans then too, my question is how did we end up here and why do we have such poverty of archaeology and "scripture", "relatively speaking". If we were earlier in the Balkans than in Troy as the DNA trail suggests... Then were are our Troy I II III IV etc etc. I hope I am understood, what I mean. If the Dardans 3k Years ago were so able to lead a civilization as you mentioned "Balkan Troy" 1290-950, why after the fall of troy they did not repeat their building sprees and similar culture in the Balkans.

    My brain has no problem guessing a merchant city that invented coins, and city walls the boast of the world, falling, and refugia fleeing in the Balkans, and falling to the Dark Ages... where we have so little info.

    Or these Bronze Age people that found out how to divide silver from gold, moving to Tirol and Dardania and Skupi and Stobi due to the gold and metal wealth there.


    What my brain struggles with, is first of all a motive for a West to East move, and furthermore explaining the relative discrepancy between Dardans in Troy and Dardans in Dardania.




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    "Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession" Strikingly similar to your calculation... Makes me reconsider my stance. Any additional readings you would recommend?

    Where do you think our J2B2 and E-V13 ancestors were say 4-5k years ago? What about before that? In case we were in the Balkans then too, my question is how did we end up here and why do we have such poverty of archaeology and "scripture", "relatively speaking". If we were earlier in the Balkans than in Troy as the DNA trail suggests... Then were are our Troy I II III IV etc etc. I hope I am understood, what I mean. If the Dardans 3k Years ago were so able to lead a civilization as you mentioned "Balkan Troy" 1290-950, why after the fall of troy they did not repeat their building sprees and similar culture in the Balkans.

    My brain has no problem guessing a merchant city that invented coins, and city walls the boast of the world, falling, and refugia fleeing in the Balkans, and falling to the Dark Ages... where we have so little info.

    Or these Bronze Age people that found out how to divide silver from gold, moving to Tirol and Dardania and Skupi and Stobi due to the gold and metal wealth there.


    What my brain struggles with, is first of all a motive for a West to East move, and furthermore explaining the relative discrepancy between Dardans in Troy and Dardans in Dardania.



    The 3 main haplos of Albanians, J2b2, EV13, and Z2103, would most likely have been around the central northern balkans 4-5K years ago.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The 3 main haplos of Albanians, J2b2, EV13, and Z2103, would most likely have been around the central northern balkans 4-5K years ago.

    Interesting. Thanks for dealing cooly with my ignorance, and not simply down-voting.

    Yeah the same blue path I was considering all along connecting Ilium through Macedon and Vardar to Dardania. I will have to get a hold of the book and read it...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Where do you think our J2B2 and E-V13 ancestors were say 4-5k years ago? What about before that?
    J2b-L283 likely moved from the Steppe or Caucasus towards the Balkans around 3600-4000 years ago. E1b-V13 probably started out either in Central Europe or somewhere in the Balkans almost 5000 years ago, then spread all around in Europe, most successfully in the Balkans. You can find some useful info on the ancestry of Albanians on gjenetika.com. Have you tested yet, or are you thinking of joining the Albanian DNA project?

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    I THINK WE ARE STILL UNDER same trap


    AND WE DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT ITS BASE,

    BRYGIANS INHABIT NORTH OF PROTO-GREEK
    BRYGIANS MOVE SOUTHERN DUE TO ILLYRIANS COMING FROM NORICUM

    AEOLIANS MOVE EAST TO PELASGIAN ARGOS AND THN EAST TO AEOLIS
    IONIAN MOVE SOUTH TO ATTICA AND COLONISE IONIA in ASIA

    DORIANS COLONISE DORIS in minor ASIA

    SO WHEN BRYGIANS MOVED TO ASIA?
    KARAMOS FOUNDER OF MAKEDONIAN KINGDOM FINDS THEM AT THEIR GLORY IN EDESSA,
    KARAMOS LIVED AROUND 800 BC, AFTER THE RETURN OF TEMENIDES, (DORIAN DESCENT)

    SO ON THE GLORY AND PEAK OF HETTITES, TROY RISES,

    ARZAWA ASSUWA ALLIANCE FALLS AND MOVES TO MYCENAE

    Could BRYGIANS MOVE TO EAST, AT THAT ERA?
    AT THE PEAK OF HETTITE EMPIRE?

    1rst Colonisation is after COLLAPSE OF TROY
    SO BRYGIANS DID NOT MOVE BEFORE MYCENAEANS DESTROY TROY,
    AND SURELY NOT BEFORE SEA PEOPLES.

    SO EITHER WE ACCEPT THAT BRYGIANS MOVED TO PHRYGIA LOGICALLY AFTER SEA PEOPLES
    WHEN EVERYBODY MOVED AND MYCENAE COLLAPSE.

    OR WE ACCEPT THAT THE PHRYGIANS OF HOMER, ARE NO THE BRYGIANS, AND PROBABLY NEVER THAT MOVED HAPPENED
    BUT THE TRIBES THAT DIAKONOV RECOGNS

    NOTICE
    BRYGIANS ARE NOT ILLYRIANS

    2 Usefull links
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

    SO WHEN EVERYBODY IS MOVING FROM MINOR ASIA DUE TO HETTITES
    HOW COME BRYGIANS MOVED THERE BEFORE TROY COLLAPSE?

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    Have to mail back the FTDNA (64?) after receiving it a couple of weeks ago, have been procrastinating a bit... And yes, the DNA project at FTDNA was my inspiration for the purchase,.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I THINK WE ARE STILL UNDER same trap


    AND WE DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT ITS BASE,

    BRYGIANS INHABIT NORTH OF PROTO-GREEK
    BRYGIANS MOVE SOUTHERN DUE TO ILLYRIANS COMING FROM NORICUM

    AEOLIANS MOVE EAST TO PELASGIAN ARGOS AND THN EAST TO AEOLIS
    IONIAN MOVE SOUTH TO ATTICA AND COLONISE IONIA in ASIA

    DORIANS COLONISE DORIS in minor ASIA

    SO WHEN BRYGIANS MOVED TO ASIA?
    KARAMOS FOUNDER OF MAKEDONIAN KINGDOM FINDS THEM AT THEIR GLORY IN EDESSA,
    KARAMOS LIVED AROUND 800 BC, AFTER THE RETURN OF TEMENIDES, (DORIAN DESCENT)

    SO ON THE GLORY AND PEAK OF HETTITES, TROY RISES,

    ARZAWA ASSUWA ALLIANCE FALLS AND MOVES TO MYCENAE

    Could BRYGIANS MOVE TO EAST, AT THAT ERA?
    AT THE PEAK OF HETTITE EMPIRE?

    1rst Colonisation is after COLLAPSE OF TROY
    SO BRYGIANS DID NOT MOVE BEFORE MYCENAEANS DESTROY TROY,
    AND SURELY NOT BEFORE SEA PEOPLES.

    SO EITHER WE ACCEPT THAT BRYGIANS MOVED TO PHRYGIA LOGICALLY AFTER SEA PEOPLES
    WHEN EVERYBODY MOVED AND MYCENAE COLLAPSE.

    OR WE ACCEPT THAT THE PHRYGIANS OF HOMER, ARE NO THE BRYGIANS, AND PROBABLY NEVER THAT MOVED HAPPENED
    BUT THE TRIBES THAT DIAKONOV RECOGNS

    NOTICE
    BRYGIANS ARE NOT ILLYRIANS

    For all we know Illyrian was an umbrella term with only strict geographic definition, if I am not mistake. And Phyrgins most likely moved a millenia or so before the sea peoples. Since the sea peoples most likely where the armies that did not return to Greece for some 10 years after the end of the Troyan war. "According to this inscription, the Luwians from western Asia Minor contributed decisively to the so-called Sea Peoples' invasions – and thus to the end of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.

    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...e-age.html#jCp"

    https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...ronze-age.html

    Someone correct me if I am wrong, but inscription by Ramses II? mentions DRDN by hieroglyph as having battled vs the Egyptians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The battle of kadesh mentions Dardanians in NW Anatolia in 1270 BC, so this is 70 years before the beginning of the "Balkanic Troy" archeological period (1200 - 950 BC).
    So maybe they came a bit before this time.
    Visualization of where the egyptians describe them in 1270 (Masa = Mysia):


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