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Thread: Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    For all we know Illyrian was an umbrella term with only strict geographic definition, if I am not mistake. And Phyrgins most likely moved a millenia or so before the sea peoples. Since the sea peoples most likely where the armies that did not return to Greece for some 10 years after the end of the Troyan war. "According to this inscription, the Luwians from western Asia Minor contributed decisively to the so-called Sea Peoples' invasions – and thus to the end of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.

    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...e-age.html#jCp"

    https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...ronze-age.html

    Someone correct me if I am wrong, but inscription by Ramses II? mentions DRDN by hieroglyph as having battled vs the Egyptians.
    If Brygians moved a millenia before Troy,
    Surely the names have no meaning,
    As also they might return to Mycenae named as Arcades (Arza-wa=Arca-dia)
    Before the Troyan War.

    READ THIS 2

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa


    The map of what was Phrygia before troyan war




    WHAT IS HISTORICALLY KNOWN AS PHRYGIA TODAY,
    DID NOT EXISTED BEFORE COLLAPSE OF TROY.
    IT WAS ARZAWA, WHICH IN GREEK BECOMES ARKADIA
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Troy was Wilusa in your map. Arzawa would have been their allies, or even potentially on the belligerant side with the aecheans. Check where the Troad is. Isn't north-west of Arzawa?

    Edit: Yes, it seems. "Modern scholars have often located Assuwa only in the north-west corner of Anatolia, an area centred north or north-west of the future Arzawa. This has made the inclusion of Caria, Lukka and/or Lycia problematic, as they were clearly located in south-west Anatolia. Their inclusion would mean that Assuwa included areas both north and south of Arzawa. However, the confederative structure of Assuwa may well have included states in two or more geographically separate, non-contiguous areas, which lacked a common land border."

    Edit3: Proof: "The inhabitants of Hisarlik lived among a number of vigorous, interactive and often warlike cultures. Apart from the mainland Greeks whence they may have sprung, the Trojans counted such neighbours as the Hittites, Phrygians and Lydians. It has been suggested that the polity at ancient Hisarlik might be one and the same with that known to the Hittites as Wilusa.[7]"

    "The unbroken occupation of the region around Hisarlik continued with the arrival of the Romans.[citation needed] Finally, after several centuries of trying, the Greeks gained control of the region once ruled by the Trojans. Around 1050-800 B.C., Ionian Greek refugees fled to Anatolia, to escape the Dorians. Many cities were founded along the Anatolian coast during the great period of Greek expansion after the eighth century B.C. One of these, Byzantium, a distant colony established on the Bosporus by the city-state of Megara, grew to supplant Rome and ultimately proved the downfall of Troy as it dominated all maritime and overland trade for almost 22 centuries"

    So 3 centuries after the fall of Troy and the population fleeing, and Hyllis going to the Dorians and becoming king, they are attacked from the east? Guess by who...



    Edit2: But what do you mean when you say "Surely the names would have no meaning"? From Agron of Ilum to Agron of Epirro-Illyrians there is at least 900 years... Does this mean it has no meaning?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Visualization of where the egyptians describe them in 1270 (Masa = Mysia):


    Interesting in that region Ilion, Troy, Scmunader (Shkumbin?), Sard Mountain (Sharr?), Mount Ollympus*, and Lake Apollonius* are located... *Since renamed by the Seljuks.

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    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Troy was Wilusa in your map. Arzawa would have been their allies, or even potentially on the belligerant side with the aecheans. Check where the Troad is. Isn't north-west of Arzawa?

    Edit: Yes, it seems. "Modern scholars have often located Assuwa only in the north-west corner of Anatolia, an area centred north or north-west of the future Arzawa. This has made the inclusion of Caria, Lukka and/or Lycia problematic, as they were clearly located in south-west Anatolia. Their inclusion would mean that Assuwa included areas both north and south of Arzawa. However, the confederative structure of Assuwa may well have included states in two or more geographically separate, non-contiguous areas, which lacked a common land border."

    Edit3: Proof: "The inhabitants of Hisarlik lived among a number of vigorous, interactive and often warlike cultures. Apart from the mainland Greeks whence they may have sprung, the Trojans counted such neighbours as the Hittites, Phrygians and Lydians. It has been suggested that the polity at ancient Hisarlik might be one and the same with that known to the Hittites as Wilusa.[7]"

    "The unbroken occupation of the region around Hisarlik continued with the arrival of the Romans.[citation needed] Finally, after several centuries of trying, the Greeks gained control of the region once ruled by the Trojans. Around 1050-800 B.C., Ionian Greek refugees fled to Anatolia, to escape the Dorians. Many cities were founded along the Anatolian coast during the great period of Greek expansion after the eighth century B.C. One of these, Byzantium, a distant colony established on the Bosporus by the city-state of Megara, grew to supplant Rome and ultimately proved the downfall of Troy as it dominated all maritime and overland trade for almost 22 centuries"

    So 3 centuries after the fall of Troy and the population fleeing, and Hyllis going to the Dorians and becoming king, they are attacked from the east? Guess by who...



    Edit2: But what do you mean when you say "Surely the names would have no meaning"? From Agron of Ilum to Agron of Epirro-Illyrians there is at least 900 years... Does this mean it has no meaning?
    Arzawa is what become Assuwa and Mycenean Allies

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    @ DERITE

    I strongly suggest you to notice this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians

    We have the oposite here,

    Mysians came to Europe

    SO IF DARDANIA AND DARDANELIA ARE THE SAME,
    THEN BY FOLLOWING THE MYSIAN WAY,
    DARDANIANS CAME FROM ASIA

    <<movement of Mysians and associated peoples from Asia into Europe still earlier than the Trojan War, wherein the Mysians and Teucrians had crossed the Bosphorus into Europe and, after conquering all of Thrace, pressed forward till they came to the Ionian Sea,>>
    So in the case of Dardanelia and Mysia, WE MIGHT HAVE AN OPOSITE WAY THAN THE BRYGIAN DID.

    BY THAT IF I FOLLOW YOUR LOGIC,
    THEN DARDANIANS CAME FROM ASIA AND MYSIA to DARDANIA.

    btw

    AGAIN THANK YOU MAN.




    PS

    I suggest also read about the Bithynoi
    Brygians might move to Asia same time with Bithynoi,
    All of them After Troy.

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    That we all came from somewhere, that is certain. But you are saying that Albos came from Asia in what I smell as a rhetorical "attack?".... where did Modern Greeks come from?
    I am not saying this to spite you... For I do not benefit from it... But up until 1800's and 1900's there were population exchanges between non-proto-Greek-Greeks from Anatolia and Albanian muslims from South Albania, facilitated by the Ottomans. So weather it is the case that some people came there in the 1900's from Asia and consider themselves "Greek" or weather someone took the same path 3000 Years earlier, does not that differentiate the two? Cause surely it must. But it should not differentiate anyone in this day and age from getting their equity and being equal, as much as God allows...

    Also Mysians=/=Dardans. When Achilles lands in Asia minor, he wounds the king of Mysia, who is just an ally of the Dardans, and not a Dardan per se...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ DERITE

    I strongly suggest you to notice this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians

    We have the oposite here,

    Mysians came to Europe

    SO IF DARDANIA AND DARDANELIA ARE THE SAME,
    THEN BY FOLLOWING THE MYSIAN WAY,
    DARDANIANS CAME FROM ASIA

    <<movement of Mysians and associated peoples from Asia into Europe still earlier than the Trojan War, wherein the Mysians and Teucrians had crossed the Bosphorus into Europe and, after conquering all of Thrace, pressed forward till they came to the Ionian Sea,>>
    So in the case of Dardanelia and Mysia, WE MIGHT HAVE AN OPOSITE WAY THAN THE BRYGIAN DID.

    BY THAT IF I FOLLOW YOUR LOGIC,
    THEN DARDANIANS CAME FROM ASIA AND MYSIA to DARDANIA.

    btw

    AGAIN THANK YOU MAN.




    PS

    I suggest also read about the Bithynoi
    Brygians might move to Asia same time with Bithynoi,
    All of them After Troy.

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    Luwian to this day is undecipherable, I suspect once we get the key to the language, which through analysis has proven different from Hittite or other languages of the Area, we might get new avenues of speculation. Luwian tablets and inscriptions were found in Wilsua, and I suspect that is not a coincidence.

    Personally interested in anything resembling written proto-Albanian that predates the AD. Do not really care where it is found, or how it got there, although those questions would naturally rise up if such proto-Albanian inscription in the BC is found/confirmed.

    In case you are genuinely interested Yetos, check this: https://www.academia.edu/14814284/Re...ate_of_the_art
    Not that good of a paper imo... but a good place to start since it aint pay-walled.

    Edit to add another source: https://www.academia.edu/376831/Furt...?auto=download

    A silver bowl dated ~1400BC, with insciption "REGIO.DOMINUS" and other words in Luwian, speculated to come from the Troad could give us clues. A) Date is close to the period we are interested in. B) "REGIO.DOMINUS" could Imply it was a silver bowl of the ruling dynasty, although REGIO.DOMINUS inscription could have been added a bit later, potentially compatible with the Dardan dynasty in Troy. C) It is in Luwian, which is speculated to be different from the Hittite language further East and South.

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    ok


    I want o end this,


    from Herodotus

    ''nor that Mysian and Teucrian host which before the Trojan war crossed the Bosporus into Europe, subduing there all the Thracians and coming down to the Ionian sea, and marching southward as far as the river Peneus.''

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians


    So, if there is connectivity among Dardania and DARDANELLIA
    and is not a common similar sound, or accidental co-incidence
    THAT IS DUE TO ANATOLIAN MYSIANS WHO MOVED TO DARDANIA BEFORE THE ILLYRIANS

    And not the oposite of Dardanians move to Dardanellia,
    or due to Brygians

    from before 2500 BC till Troyan War we have population moves from East to West, From Asia to Europe,
    The oposite starts with 1rst Colonisation, and has its peak after Alexander's era, The Hellenistic Era.

    SO MOST POSSIBLE IS THAT BRYGIANS GREEKS BITHYNOI ETC (BA:LKANIC PEOPLE) MOVED TO ASIA AFTER TROYAN WAR,
    AS BEFORE TROYAN WAR WE HAVE THE COMMING OF MYCENEANS FROM ANATOLIA, THE Push of Anatolians to West and Aegean,
    the coming of Hettites etc


    @ Derite,

    thank you again man,
    You have just proved that Dardanians are Anatolians, and before The Illyrian Arrival,
    So Dardanians are not Illyrians, not Brygians, but Anatolian origin Mysians !!!!!



    Btw
    what is the next Atopon?




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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ok


    I want o end this,


    from Herodotus

    ''nor that Mysian and Teucrian host which before the Trojan war crossed the Bosporus into Europe,13 subduing there all the Thracians and coming down to the Ionian sea, and marching southward as far as the river Peneus.''

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians


    So, if there is connectivity among Dardania and DARDANELLIA
    and is not a common similar sound, or accidental co-incidence
    THAT IS DUE TO ANATOLIAN MYSIANS WHO MOVED TO DARDANIA BEFORE THE ILLYRIANS

    And not the oposite of Dardanians move to Dardanellia,
    or due to Brygians

    from before 2500 BC till Troyan War we have population moves from East to West, From Asia to Europe,
    The oposite starts with 1rst Colonisation, and has its peak after Alexander's era, The Hellenistic Era.

    SO MOST POSSIBLE IS THAT BRYGIANS GREEKS BITHYNOI ETC (BA:LKANIC PEOPLE) MOVED TO ASIA AFTER TROYAN WAR,
    AS BEFORE TROYAN WAR WE HAVE THE COMMING OF MYCENEANS FROM ANATOLIA, THE Push of Anatolians to West and Aegean,
    the coming of Hettites etc


    @ Derite,

    thank you again man,
    You have just proved that Dardanians are Anatolians, and before The Illyrian Arrival,


    Btw
    what is next Derite?
    A video that Albanian language is Anatolian IE?

    So it became apparent to me you have an agenda other than the truth... whatever such a thing is.

    Not according to Homer... Who lived at least 300 years prior to Herodotus, and the Homeric epic is probably much much earlier than Homer himself... Herodotus wrote about Phyrgians after they had been in Wilusa already for ~800 Years, as related to the Thracians, and Byrgians. But I would not trust him to know much about direction or causation...

    "A minor episode in the Trojan War cycle in Greek mythology has the Greek fleet land at Mysia, mistaking it for Troy. Achilles wounds their king, Telephus, after he slays a Greek; Telephus later pleads with Achilles to heal the wound. This coastal region ruled by Telephus is alternatively named "Teuthrania" in Greek mythology, as it was previously ruled by a King Teuthras. In the Iliad, Homer represents the Mysians as allies of Troy, with the Mysian forces led by Ennomus (a prophet) and Chromius, sons of Arsinous. "

    Edit: Also if we go by both Homer and later Herodotus, Dardans were one of the "ruling" houses. They did not represent the population at large, at least as I understand it. My eyes are open though, willing to accept proof if you are willing to find it.

    Try to make your theories fit the facts... not the other way around

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    So it became apparent to me you have an agenda other than the truth... whatever such a thing is.

    Not according to Homer... Who lived at least 300 years prior to Herodotus, and the Homeric epic is probably much much earlier than Homer himself... Herodotus wrote about Phyrgians after they had been in Wilusa already for ~800 Years, as related to the Thracians, and Byrgians. But I would not trust him to know much about direction or causation...

    "A minor episode in the Trojan War cycle in Greek mythology has the Greek fleet land at Mysia, mistaking it for Troy. Achilles wounds their king, Telephus, after he slays a Greek; Telephus later pleads with Achilles to heal the wound. This coastal region ruled by Telephus is alternatively named "Teuthrania" in Greek mythology, as it was previously ruled by a King Teuthras. In the Iliad, Homer represents the Mysians as allies of Troy, with the Mysian forces led by Ennomus (a prophet) and Chromius, sons of Arsinous. "

    Edit: Also if we go by both Homer and later Herodotus, Dardans were one of the "ruling" houses. They did not represent the population at large, at least as I understand it. My eyes are open though, willing to accept proof if you are willing to find it.

    Try to make your theories fit the facts... not the other way around
    Why do you think scholars usually consider Trojans to have been either Luwian (the most common view) or Thracian-Phyrgian? It's very unlikely that they were Illyrians, as the material culture of metal age Troy looks either Anatolian or eastern Balkanic.

    Those ancient narratives about the mythical ancestors of various populations cannot really be trusted. The Greeks themselves, and especially the Dorians, used to believe they descended from Egyptians, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Why do you think scholars usually consider Trojans to have been either Luwian (the most common view) or Thracian-Phyrgian? It's very unlikely that they were Illyrians, as the material culture of metal age Troy looks either Anatolian or eastern Balkanic.

    Those ancient narratives about the mythical ancestors of various populations cannot really be trusted. The Greeks themselves, and especially the Dorians, used to believe they descended from Egyptians, for example.
    Myth is not truth, I agree... but where there is smoke there is fire, and certainly not ice.

    When are the Illyrians mentioned in 1300BC? Such a term did not exist during this time period, AFAIK.

    I am starting to think Illyria was Illyria purely for administrative purposes, and later than Bronze Age... More like during Classical times.

    Edit to address your question:
    Cause at the time the term Illyria did not exist, was not used. Whoever these inhabitants of the Troad where, they were multi-ethnic see one of my previous posts with quotes in bold, at least 3 different entities if not more, were known to inhabit Lawusa, where Luwian tablets where found. We know linear A, what about linear B? All we know is that Luwian was used in the Western-most corner of Anatolia, written in Linear B, and from what we have desciphered, Luwian, in contrast to all other Hatti and Hittite language did not use sufix -li...

    I do not have proof, all of this is speculation so bare with my ignorance. However the circumstantial evidence and what is missing is obvious.

    Edit2: I did not downvote your inquiry, and I suspect whoever did had the intention to signal that I did it Markod.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 22-01-19 at 00:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Myth is not truth, I agree... but where there is smoke there is fire, and certainly not ice.
    When are the Illyrians mentioned in 1300BC? Such a term did not exist during this time period, AFAIK.
    I am starting to thing Illyria was Illyria purely for administrative purposes, and later than Bronze Age... More like during Classical times.
    Edit to address your question:
    Cause at the time the term Illyria did not exist, was not used. Whoever these inhabitants of the Troad where, they were multi-ethnic see one of my previous posts with quotes in bold, at least 3 different entities if not more, were known to inhabit Lawusa, where Luwian tablets where found. We know linear A, what about linear B? All we know is that Luwian was used in the Western-most corner of Anatolia, written in Linear B, and from what we have desciphered, Linear B, in contrast to all other Hatti and Hittite language did not use sufix -li...
    I do not have proof, all of this is speculation so bare with my ignorance. However the circumstantial evidence and what is missing is obvious.
    Edit2: I did not downvote your inquiry, and I suspect whoever did had the intention to signal that I did it Markod.
    while illyrians after the celtic invasion circa 500Bc became known more so as per their indinvidual tribal names , the facts are they where termed much more as just illyrians before that....strabo states they began
    let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253 the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269
    The ister is the Danube river and he refers to south germany area.
    .
    but he can also be confused by some tribes.....the Galatae to him are celts that invaded the Bakans .......but he mentions the Dardani as illyrian , which might be in his time no knowledge of their anatolian connection
    among the Galatae the Boii and the Scordistae, and among the Illyrians the Autariatae, Ardiaei, and Dardanii, and among the Thracians the Triballi;
    316
    that is, they were reduced in warfare by one another at first and then later by the Macedonians and the Romans.

    Galatae the Boii and the Scordistae = celts
    Autariatae = souithern most illyrian tribe, north of the dardani
    Ardiaei = coastal montengro illyrian tribe, most southern on the coast
    Triballi = thracian tribe and what serbs claim they have a high % of
    .
    .
    He then states the dardani as different to the illyrian Autariatae
    Autariatae and the Dassaretii — different peoples on different sides being contiguous to one another and to the Autariatae.315 To the Dardaniatae belong also the p265 Galabrii,316 among whom is an ancient city,317 and the Thunatae,
    so, its seems the Dassareti are dardanians and not illyrian and the other dardanian tribes are the Galabrii and the Thunatae

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    Well... When did Strabo write, and when was the Iliad sung? If you answer those questions, you will understand my point.

    As far as the evidence we have, After the 1300BC collapse of the Bronze Age civilization, even the greeks lost the written language, in what are considered the first dark ages... That is why the Illiad was sung, and although the Illiad might have been sung by Rhapsods, it is estimated " written version is usually dated to around the 8th century BC. " So before putting pen to paper (figuratively), Homer knew some Epic Rhapsody about events, 4-5 centuries prior. As for 1300-800 we are completely in the DARK. Then we have mentions of Dorian invasion...

    And when did Strabo write again?

    I am looking for arguments here mate... if you are going to skip 1000 years in your argument, might as well say proto-Illyirans came from Africa in the 90's.

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    @ ΑrchetypeOne

    you still seems to follow the logic of Olga Popovic of Slavs
    Only with Albanian view,

    Until now only possible, accidental coincidences of names,
    and you us to believe them.

    Well a Suggestion to you

    STOP WATCHING MARIN MEMA AND TOP CHANNEL.
    It harms your health,

    when we discuss, about a possible connection or not, but a certain !!! among Dardania and Dardanelia,
    we can not claim what ever whithout historical, archaiological, genetical evidences,

    And until now the only evidence is that Mysians owners of Dardanelia reach Ionian sea,
    meaning today coastal Albania before Troyan war,
    While from Europe to minor Asia colonisation starts after Troyan war.

    as for Telephos which is pure Mycenean-Greek name, Τηλε-
    I wonder why you mix him?
    do you believe that Amaltheia also comes from Mal+Di = mountain goat in Albanian?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok Mr. I dont source my points LMAO.... At least you serve for a good laugh. I refuted your claim 3 times already, but cant teach a pig to fly, nor a stone to think.

    Angela.... Infraction taken into consideration, you don't even have to mention it.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 19-01-19 at 23:29.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Ok Mr. I dont source my points LMAO.... At least you serve for a good laugh. I refuted your claim 3 times already, but cant teach a pig to fly, nor a stone to think.

    Angela.... Infraction take into consideration, you don't even have to mention it.
    ok, then

    we have an agreement?
    you agree with my point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    as for Telephos which is pure Mycenean-Greek name, Τηλε-
    How is it PURE Mycenean-Greek?, it sounds Hittites. Telipinu King, Telipinu God etc.

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    @ boreas

    Τηλεμαχος
    Τηλεφος
    Τηλεφασσα,
    Τηλεβολον
    Τηλεγονος
    Τηλεβοας
    Tελος
    Τηλεσκοπιον

    Τηλε means away, afar, far off,

    words like
    Telephone in Greek is away-voice
    Television away-vision
    Telegraph
    etc,

    Τηλε = Tele Greek form of IE *kwel

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    Dardans were not Mysians, they were not even Trojan...

    DO NOT TRUST ME. TRUST YOUR OWN EYES. AND YOUR OWN HOMER... HE WAS GREEK RIGHT?

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-pdf.pdf

    Click that link, ctrl+f "darda" and you will see the root quoted 34 times in the Illiad.

    It is quoted, explicitly as a race, in juxtaposition and exclusive from "Grecian", who were the Aecheas, no such thing as Greek at the time, proto-Greek ill grant you.
    And Dardans explicitly in juxtaposition to Troyans themselves.

    "Divine Æneas brings the Dardan race,Anchises' son, by Venus' stolen embrace,Born in the shades of Ida's secret grove;(A mortal mixing with the queen of love;)"

    "His speedy succour to the Spartan king;Pierced with a winged shaft (the deed of Troy),The Grecian's sorrow, and the Dardan's joy.""

    "Ye Trojans, Dardans, all our generous foes! [065]Hear and attest! from Heaven with conquest crown'd,"

    "From ancient Dardanus, the first from Jove:Dardania's walls he raised; for Ilion, then,(The city since of many-languaged men,)Was not. The natives were content to tillThe shady foot of Ida's fountful hill.264From Dardanus great Erichthonius springs,The richest, once, of Asia's wealthy kings;"

    Then you have Strabo parroting off a couple hundred years later, Homer version...

    https://books.google.mk/books?id=qs8...strabo&f=false
    Page 58

    Read for yourself

    Edited to add source:

    https://books.google.mk/books?id=qs8...rdania&f=false

    Page 136-137 So interesting...
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 21-01-19 at 13:07.

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    @ ArchetypeOne,

    If you noticed I wrote
    Thank you and another name, not yours.

    But you answered me about Brygians move before Troyan war,

    anyway,
    We are not here to answer Marin Mema and Top channel 'histories' or 'hysterias'
    who provide troyan war as Albanian civil war,
    Troy was Albanian
    Achilles was Albanian.
    So Troyan war an Albanian civil war

    I see you are new to forum
    I have nothing against you,
    but with the 'hysteria' that some want us to provide as history.

    who and what were the Dardanians,
    really It is not me to say,
    but when Isee such videos,
    I really have to put things in order,

    So if you believe that Dardanians were Illyrians, and Also Troyans, or Build Troy,
    much before the Illyrian arrival,
    Then Herodotos have the answer to you, the Mysian theory.
    Illyrian Troy is beyond imagination I think.
    as also the oposite,

    Btw
    the most funny I ever seen at TOP channel
    was an Albanian female Historian
    claiming Greeks never fought a single battle.

    now lets all have a nice night,
    I will travel 500 km to protest against the new treaty tonight,


    Plus
    notice this


    (S)Achaioi
    Saxons
    Czech

    Danaoi
    Danes

    Wales
    Waloons
    Wallachs

    it is IE
    Danes are Danish and Danaoi are Mycenans
    Wales is in Britain
    Wallons in Belgium
    Wallachs in Wallachia,
    etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Myth is not truth, I agree... but where there is smoke there is fire, and certainly not ice.

    When are the Illyrians mentioned in 1300BC? Such a term did not exist during this time period, AFAIK.

    I am starting to think Illyria was Illyria purely for administrative purposes, and later than Bronze Age... More like during Classical times.

    Edit to address your question:
    Cause at the time the term Illyria did not exist, was not used. Whoever these inhabitants of the Troad where, they were multi-ethnic see one of my previous posts with quotes in bold, at least 3 different entities if not more, were known to inhabit Lawusa, where Luwian tablets where found. We know linear A, what about linear B? All we know is that Luwian was used in the Western-most corner of Anatolia, written in Linear B, and from what we have desciphered, Linear B, in contrast to all other Hatti and Hittite language did not use sufix -li...

    I do not have proof, all of this is speculation so bare with my ignorance. However the circumstantial evidence and what is missing is obvious.

    Edit2: I did not downvote your inquiry, and I suspect whoever did had the intention to signal that I did it Markod.
    I agree with your general point, Greek sources aren't really sufficient to make any solid conclusions, especially because they have been written down centuries after the occurences as you said. If scholars ascribe either Luwian or Thracian/Phrygian to the Troyans, this is based on evidence that is rather thin like the look of the pottery, a single inscription etc. .

    I think at one point we'll find out since there are hundreds of completely unexcavated Bronze Age settlements in Western Anatolia. Turkey had understandbly barred its doors to archaeological research due to rampant theft and forgeries of valuable artefacts by Western scientists in the 20th century, but it seems like Turkish archaeologists are taking up the task now. IMHO there's bound to be a lot of written evidence in those Bronze Age sites.

    As for the Illyrian connection, I just don't think that the Greek geneaologies are really anything but fiction. We do not even know if the Troyans called themselves so, or whether Dardanoi was simply an exonym. And as was mentioned, the Balkanic connection in the material culture points to eastern Bulgaria, a region traditionally connected with north-western Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I agree with your general point, Greek sources aren't really sufficient to make any solid conclusions, especially because they have been written down centuries after the occurences as you said. If scholars ascribe either Luwian or Thracian/Phrygian to the Troyans, this is based on evidence that is rather thin like the look of the pottery, a single inscription etc. .

    I think at one point we'll find out since there are hundreds of completely unexcavated Bronze Age settlements in Western Anatolia. Turkey had understandbly barred its doors to archaeological research due to rampant theft and forgeries of valuable artefacts by Western scientists in the 20th century, but it seems like Turkish archaeologists are taking up the task now. IMHO there's bound to be a lot of written evidence in those Bronze Age sites.

    As for the Illyrian connection, I just don't think that the Greek geneaologies are really anything but fiction. We do not even know if the Troyans called themselves so, or whether Dardanoi was simply an exonym. And as was mentioned, the Balkanic connection in the material culture points to eastern Bulgaria, a region traditionally connected with north-western Anatolia.
    Could not disagree with your first two points.
    As for the third.

    Illyrian connection does not go back in time, think analytic continuation, and causation... What I have been trying to no avail to point out, is that the "Illyrian" raison d'etre as a term might have been to connect a loose connection between people living in the Balkans during the second ancient-Greek (Grecian) literary phase. Namely 800BC and after. Not surprisingly, this is when sources start to appear, referring to Dardans, as well as other tribes inhabiting Illyria, as Illyrian, and Illyrians as "supposedly" related to Thracians. Before that, inland, Balkanic people are know as Thracians and Pellasgian based on sources, And... not surprisingly (?) the term Illyria, and subsequently "Illyrian" gains popularity with the rise of Rome, and through Roman scholars, I suspect for administrative reasons.

    Myth generally should not be taken at face value, just like the Bible or the Torah. However, one is foolish not to consider what we have and leave all, and I mean, all, presuppositions at the door.

    If you are aware with what Rhapsodes do... it is something akin to memorizing songs... albeit 800 page songs. There certainly is corruption over time, but you would be surprised how reliable "rhapsodes" are.

    Are you aware who Schliemann is? I suspect he was not disappointed in the accuracy of such "fictional songs" since he materially substantiated legend.

    And where you have both smoke and fire, you can not claim the fire is cold.


    Now before I go on a tangent.

    What does this mean? Nothing... Just speculation. However I am cynic as to your own cynicism regarding sources that have been historically proven right, at least materially.

    Read my comment to Yetos... and you shall also notice that Dardan was not an exonym, to the contrary, the royal family itself called themselves that. You shall also notice... that Dardan are explicitly stated as a different entity from the Troyans, in land, and in blood, they just ruled jointly, respectively upper and lower Scumander basin. Hence the statement "We do not even know if the Troyans called themselves so, or whether Dardanoi was simply an exonym." doesn't make much sense.

    I fully agree with you tho, that only time will tell.

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    List of Trojan War characters
    Armies[edit]


    Not ONE mention of Illyrians... Anywhere... Even Aethiopians participated FFS.

    We see roughly a 2:1 belligerent ratio between Aegean League and Ilium, at least in term of nominal tribal participation, which might not necessarily imply fighter ratio.

    Furthermore...

    Hyllus (river)

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hyllus/Hyllos is also the name of a son of Heracles, see Hyllus.
    Hyllus or Hyllos (Greek: Ὕλλος) was the ancient name of a river of Asia Minor. It is a tributary of the river Hermus, in Lydia, flowing into Hermus from the north.[1] In the time of Strabo, the river was called Phrygius.[2]




    Notice in the above picture how the Dardanus "settlement", which according to legend was founded by Dardanus himself, ancestor of the Dardans and their very namesake corresponds with the flow of rivers. If we are to believe Homer, who has so far been proven archaeologically correct, even more so than Strabo who wrote centuries later:
    One of these rivers in the north corresponding approximately with the settlement of Dardanus, if not a different river now extinct, would have flown North to South, next to the Dardanus settlement, and feed into the Scamander.

    Now... Following logic... There was a river feeding into Hermus (alternatively name for Scamander), named Hyllus.

    "Ilium

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





    "Scamander



    This article is about a river god. For the ruler of Boeotia, see Scamander (king of Boeotia).

    Water, or the Fight of Achilles against Scamander and Simoeis by Auguste Couder, 1819.

    Scamander /skəˈmændər/, Skamandros (Ancient Greek: Σκάμανδρος, ) Xanthos (Ξάνθος), was the name of a river god in Greek mythology.


    Mythology


    Achilles and Scamander

    Scamander fought on the side of the Trojans during the Trojan War (Iliad XX, 73/74; XXI), after the Greek hero Achilles insulted him. Scamander was also said to have attempted to kill Achilles three times, and the hero was only saved due to the intervention of Hera, Athena and Hephaestus. In this context, he is the personification of the Scamander River that flowed from Mount Ida across the plain beneath the city of Troy, joining the Hellespont north of the city. The Achaeans, according to Homer, had set up their camp near its mouth, and their battles with the Trojans were fought on the plain of Scamander. In Iliad XXII (149ff), Homer states that the river had two springs: one produced warm water; the other yielded cold water, regardless of the season.

    According to Homer
    , he was called Xanthos by gods and Scamander by men, which might indicate that the former name refers to the god and the latter one to the river itself.[6] "



    Epirus in antiquity

    Ilium or Ilion (Ancient Greek: Ἴλιον), also known as Troja (Τροΐα),[1] was a city of ancient Epirus[2] It is mentioned in the Aeneid of Virgil as a foundation of Helenus after the Trojan War in the land of the Chaonia.[3] "



    Make of that what thou wilt.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 21-01-19 at 13:19.

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    "Skepsis or Scepsis (Ancient Greek: Σκέψις) was an ancient settlement in the Troad, Asia Minor that is at the present site of the village of Kurşunlutepe, near the town of Bayramiç in Turkey. The settlement is notable for being the location where the famous library of Aristotle was kept before being moved to Pergamum and Alexandria.[1] It was also home to Metrodorus of Scepsis and Demetrius of Scepsis.


    History[edit]

    The city of Skepsis was situated in two different, non-contemporary sites on Mount Ida, Palea-Skepsis and the settlement of Skepsis proper."

    According to Strabo citing some other historian... have to find the citation since I read this yesterday... Skepsis was the older settlement in the region, settled after some catastrophe in the lower plains, what I suspect a flood, by way of Black Sea.

    Take this catastrophe myth with a grain of salt till I find the page I read it in, somewhere in Strabo's on the Troad Book XIII Cap I.

    According to Strabo, Dardans were the ones to settle Skepsis after such catastrophe. And for a "long" time it was the only settlement. With the passing of time other settlers came, and once the fear of settling the lower plains was but a memory, they settled the lower Western plain which was highly fertile. Here the Dardans had hereditary rule for the North plain of Scamander, whereas Trojans where just below the river.


    The two entities however, combined formed Ilium as we know from the Iliad.





    Sari peak at mount IDA above for reference. They call it Sari Kiz (or more often "Baba Tepe" LMAO, not even preserving the root today though)
    If Seljuks had not completely erased the ancient toponyms from the area truth would be much more obvious.

    But what I do notice is Scamander, Skepsis, and Sari.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 20-01-19 at 17:54.

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