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Thread: Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    "Heracles, whom Zeus had originally intended to be ruler of Argos, Lacedaemon and Messenian Pylos, had been supplanted by the cunning of Hera, and his intended possessions had fallen into the hands of Eurystheus, king of Mycenae. After the death of Heracles, his children, after many wanderings, found refuge from Eurystheus at Athens. Eurystheus, on his demand for their surrender being refused, attacked Athens, but was defeated and slain."


    This IMO is what set in motion the differentiation of proto-Greeks with proto-Albanians. To this day we have genetic difference between Athens and Argos (Achea+Morea) reflecting this split.

    "Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus, but after a year's stay were forced by a pestilence to quit. They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons, Pamphylus and Dymas, voluntarily submitted to Hyllus, who thus became ruler of the Dorians, the three branches of that race being named after these three heroes. Being desirous of reconquering his paternal inheritance, Hyllus consulted the Delphic oracle, which told him to wait for "the third fruit," and then enter Peloponnesus by "a narrow passage by sea."

    Supposedly they tried to invade Aechean Greeks 3 times, failing, explaining the ~300 years it took for the Dorian invasion to finally mean anything.

    "The Heracleidae ruled in Lacedaemon until 221 BC, but disappeared much earlier in the other countries. This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heracleidae," is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical. " Especially bolded so Markod wont miss it.

    Heracles was a slave turned to legendary Hero and King in western Anatolia. Etrusci claimed descent of Heracles. Dorians claimed descent of Heracles. In Virgils Aeneid Apollonia and Ilium (Ancient Epirus) were founded by Troyan refugees, some of which ended in Etruria...

    If anyone plans to take my words and to misuse them saying I am implying Etruscans and Proto Albanians as same entity do not even try. Have already posted proof enough that Troy/Ilium was a multi entity league. What is written black and white by Homer, Herodotus, Strabo, Virgil is simply that "some" of the ancestors of modern Etruscans were of the same tribe as the Dardani, and Aenea himself was a Dardan.

    If anyone wants additional sources to understand what the hell I am talking about:

    https://indo-european.info/ie/Paleo-Balkan_languages

    https://indo-european.eu/haplogroup-...ndo-europeans/

    https://indo-european.eu/tag/wilusija/

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/con...ansion-routes/

    ======================================

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Trojan_race

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iardanus_of_Lydia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_of_Lydia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardys_of_Lydia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyllus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyllus_(river)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamander

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gegania_(gens)

    ========================


    Strabo on the Troad;

    Virgils Aeneid;


    Homers Iliad;


    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 20-01-19 at 21:49.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ boreas

    Τηλεμαχος
    Τηλεφος
    Τηλεφασσα,
    Τηλεβολον
    Τηλεγονος
    Τηλεβοας
    Tελος
    Τηλεσκοπιον

    Τηλε means away, afar, far off,

    words like
    Telephone in Greek is away-voice
    Television away-vision
    Telegraph
    etc,

    Τηλε = Tele Greek form of IE *kwel
    Is Hittite names which I gave also Greek originate or coming from same IE root, Which makes it definitely not 100% / pure Mycenean-Greek?

    ---------------------------------------

    Is there any Trojan DNA sample?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post


    Is there full map? Source of Map, please?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Is there full map? Source of Map, please?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L...ng#filehistory

    About DNA.... I wish. Tried to find ancient tested samples related to this period to no avail.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Is Hittite names which I gave also Greek originate or coming from same IE root, Which makes it definitely not 100% / pure Mycenean-Greek?

    ---------------------------------------

    Is there any Trojan DNA sample?
    Boreas

    Tηλε Tele is Mycenean Greek,

    if one Hettite found as Telipinu
    while so many Mycenean-Greek as Wrote to you
    as the evolution from IE
    does not change it

    https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...86%CE%BB%CE%B5

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...86%CE%BB%CE%B5

    plz do not insist it is Hittite

    IE *kwel,
    but Greek τηλε
    in another IE might be different
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @ ArchetypeOne

    in an effort to help you, or enrich your names
    I give this

    Illuyanka of Hettites

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka

    now as you notice
    Hyllous river means
    either eel living river, like Hellopotamos, and possibly Enhelleis
    either snake form river, the later Greek Maiandros from minor Asia omonymos river

    from *hillu
    English eel
    Latin anguilla
    Greek Heli Eγχελυον

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Not really helpful Yetos, in case that was your genuine intention...

    "Middle Bronze Age[edit]

    Certain evidence of the Luwians begins around 2000 BC, with the presence of personal names and loan words in Old Assyrian Empire documents from the Assyrian colony of Kültepe, dating from between 1950 and 1700 BC (Middle Chronology), which shows that Luwian and Hittite were already two distinct languages at this point. According to most scholars, the Hittites were then settled in upper Kızılırmak and had their economic and political centre at Kaniš-Neša (from which the Hittite language gained its native name, nešili). The Luwians most likely lived in southern and western Anatolia, perhaps with a political centre at Purushanda. The Assyrian colonists and traders who were present in Anatolia at this time refer to the local people as nuwaʿum without any differentiation. This term seems to derive from the name of the Luwians, with the change from l/n resulting from the mediation of Hurrian."


    Notice Argo Grecians - Non Heraclid Proto Greeks refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
    Notice Luwians - Heracleid Proto Albanians - according to my hypothesis.
    And finally, for the love of God... Notice Hittites. Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with Hittite? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.




    "Hittite period[edit]

    The Old Hittite laws from the 17th century BC contain cases relating to the then independent regions of Palā (comment: I suspect R1B Pelasgs, althoug highly unlikely and speculative) and Luwiya. Traders and displaced people seem to have moved from one country to the other on the basis of agreements between Ḫattusa and Luwiya.[3] It has been argued that theLuwians never formed a single unified Luwian state, but populated a number of polities where they mixed with other population groups. However, a minority opinion holds that in the end they did form a unified force, and brought about the end of Bronze Age civilization by attacking the Hittites and then other areas as the Sea People.
    During the Hittite period, the kingdoms of Šeḫa [de] and Arzawa developed in the west, focussed on the Maeander valley.(comment:Check the map I posted before, where does meander run? does it run beneath Skepsis?) In the south was the state of Kizzuwatna, which was inhabited by a mixture of Hurrians and Luwians. The kingdom of Tarḫuntašša developed during the Hittite New Kingdom, in southern Anatolia. The kingdom of Wilusa was located in northwest Anatolia on the site of Troy. Whether any of these kingdoms represented a Luwian state cannot be clearly determined on current evidence and is a matter of controversy in contemporary scholarship."

    And also, phonetically how do you pronounce Ὕλλος" in Greek ? I don't even know your script mate and I can read the first word of the Illiad in Ancient Greek whatever that means.

    "Mëneaj" do you know what that means? Don't google it now. But it certainly represents my feeling towards you after you flooding this post with tangential unrelated BS to get off topic, while "pretending" to "enrich my names"... Think I am done with this topic.



    PS. I even colored the names for you so you don't get confused, each color represents something different.

    Edit to add some context::
    "
    The poem's initial word, μῆνιν (mēnin, accusative of μῆνις, mēnis, "wrath, rage, fury"), establishes the Iliad's principal theme: The "Wrath of Achilles".[33]



    Wow. Achilles! Buddy! Stop rekking the Aecheans please.
    Nvm,f*ck him too, for what he did to Hector.


    Note:I wonder if Peleus:Pellasgian is the same relation Grecian*:Greek.

    Grecian are the people Homer refers to as living in Argos, (Achea+Morea), in the Illiad.
    Helens are the descendants of Helen and the king of Argos.
    Dorians are the people that rekt the Grecians ~900BC, sparing Athens.

    Don't believe me? Read for yourself. Homer was a boss.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 25-01-19 at 19:05.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting presentation:

    https://slideplayer.com/slide/4572029/

    They do not even mention "Albanian", but if one follows basic logic the facts lead only one way.
    This is not new information from what I understand, I just was not previously aware of it and had doubts.
    The presentation above is from 2011. But I guess our propaganda driven states have no interest in disseminating such valuable knowledge.

    Yetos is a similar to many acquaintances of mine, albeit of different nationalities, since hate knows no bounds... They grew up learning history in jumps of 2000 Years. I know I did... Jumped from 300 BC to WW1 in our history class... no kidding. and I had to research myself to get anywhere. But contrary to Yetos I am not blind when faced with the facts.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RealAlbanian View Post
    Edit: how to delete this post? Let the professionals continue the discussion
    What professionals? Where? Where? All I see here is rank speculation to elevate ones modern nation to a grandeur that it does not deserve. Let's face it, most people's ancestors deserve kudos just because they survived. That's all. My ancestors were farmers since probably the Neolithic, never moving more than 10-20 miles away from where their ancestors lived. Thracians never had a written language so no literature, maybe some oral history that was lost. They were supposed to be good with horses and fierce warriors and famed for their strong wine and Dionysian orgies. The findings in present day Bulgaria also point to well developed gold jewelry skills. But really that's it. I cannot point to some world renowned civilization. The same can be said about the descendants of the ancient Dacians, Illyrians, Moesans, etc. Farmers and herders and that's that. Face it and go on. Create a new future civilization you can be proud of because your ancestors, and mine, were just that, small scale farmers and herders. If my more recent ancestors were turkified I would be speaking Turkish and be a muslim. If they were bulgarized I would be speaking Bulgarian. It does not change the fact that basically they were humble folk. I am glad they survived through the Celtic, Roman, Avar, Goth, Bulgar Slav and Turkish invasions and I am here.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Further commonalities between Troy and "Illyria" that Achilles reveals:

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Not really helpful Yetos, in case that was your genuine intention...

    "Middle Bronze Age[edit]

    Certain evidence of the Luwians begins around 2000 BC, with the presence of personal names and loan words in Old Assyrian Empire documents from the Assyrian colony of Kültepe, dating from between 1950 and 1700 BC (Middle Chronology), which shows that Luwian and Hittite were already two distinct languages at this point. According to most scholars, the Hittites were then settled in upper Kızılırmak and had their economic and political centre at Kaniš-Neša (from which the Hittite language gained its native name, nešili). The Luwians most likely lived in southern and western Anatolia, perhaps with a political centre at Purushanda. The Assyrian colonists and traders who were present in Anatolia at this time refer to the local people as nuwaʿum without any differentiation. This term seems to derive from the name of the Luwians, with the change from l/n resulting from the mediation of Hurrian."


    Notice Argo Grecians - Non Heraclid Proto Greeks refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
    Notice Luwians - Heracleid Proto Albanians - according to my hypothesis.
    And finally, for the love of God... Notice Hittites. Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with Hittite? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.




    "Hittite period[edit]

    The Old Hittite laws from the 17th century BC contain cases relating to the then independent regions of Palā (comment: I suspect R1B Pelasgs, althoug highly unlikely and speculative) and Luwiya. Traders and displaced people seem to have moved from one country to the other on the basis of agreements between Ḫattusa and Luwiya.[3] It has been argued that theLuwians never formed a single unified Luwian state, but populated a number of polities where they mixed with other population groups. However, a minority opinion holds that in the end they did form a unified force, and brought about the end of Bronze Age civilization by attacking the Hittites and then other areas as the Sea People.
    During the Hittite period, the kingdoms of Šeḫa [de] and Arzawa developed in the west, focussed on the Maeander valley.(comment:Check the map I posted before, where does meander run? does it run beneath Skepsis?) In the south was the state of Kizzuwatna, which was inhabited by a mixture of Hurrians and Luwians. The kingdom of Tarḫuntašša developed during the Hittite New Kingdom, in southern Anatolia. The kingdom of Wilusa was located in northwest Anatolia on the site of Troy. Whether any of these kingdoms represented a Luwian state cannot be clearly determined on current evidence and is a matter of controversy in contemporary scholarship."

    And also, phonetically how do you pronounce Ὕλλος" in Greek ? I don't even know your script mate and I can read the first word of the Illiad in Ancient Greek whatever that means.

    "Mëneaj" do you know what that means? Don't google it now. But it certainly represents my feeling towards you after you flooding this post with tangential unrelated BS to get off topic, while "pretending" to "enrich my names"... Think I am done with this topic.

    PS. I even colored the names for you so you don't get confused, each color represents something different.
    What we know from Luwian was clearly related to Hittite linguistically and definitely part of Anatolian IE, very unlike Albanian or other Balkanic IE. What could perhaps be argued is that the late BA was a period of Balkan to Asia Minor immigration, and Dardanians also migrated from there like Phrygians, the firast Greek settlers and perhaps even Armenians. But I doubt the eventual Albanians would come from a back-migration making the reverse path. They might share some ancestors with themm, but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry).

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Well
    WILL YOU EVER DECIDE?

    One says that Illyrians Dardanians and Troyans are connected,

    And the other Says that Herakleides (Hercules) were proto-Albanians,

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Notice Argo Grecians - Non Heraclid Proto Greeks refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
    Notice Luwians - Heracleid Proto Albanians- according to my hypothesis.
    And finally, for the love of God... Notice Hittites. Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with Hittite? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.

    Will you ever decide?


    Ok t
    to Derite,
    yes there is a Possibility that Troyans and Dardanians might be connected,
    Via Myssians,
    Herodotos writes that Myssian before Troyan war enter Europe
    conguer Thrace and reach Ionian Sea, Means coastal Albania
    IN THAT CASE YOU JUST PROVED THAT DARDANIANS WERE ANATOLIANS MYSIANS
    AND THEIR FIRST LANGUAGE WAS AN ANATOLIAN IE ONE,
    MEANING THAT THE DARDANIANS YOU PROVIDE US SPOKE MYSIAN ANATOLIAN AND NOT ALBANIAN
    EXCEPT IF YOU BELIEVE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE CAME FROM ASIA MINOR.




    @ ArchetypeOne

    I gave you a word, so not confuse, and stop providing this
    Illuwanka a Hettit word, but Illu- is Found in many IE, but does it has the same meaning?

    but probably you have an epiphotisis, a kind of Pentecoste flaming tongues,

    What Argos Greeks? what Herakleides protoAlbanian?
    Do you know when Illyrians enter today Albania coming from Noricum?

    Notice this
    Mycenean World





    Proto-Greek spoken




    Greek and Brygian and Latin come from the same split of IE
    Illyrian come from Celtic family with Germanic influence, and enter with the move of Brygians.

    the Argos Greeks you say
    the Luwian-Herakleides protoAlbanians

    and the rest
    Sory I can not understand what you want to share with us,


    BTW

    the time is not as you provide,
    Myceneans were already in Greece when Hettites enter minor Asia,
    Myceneans are found from 2900 BC in Greece
    and generally we know they stabilize language and culture around 2000 BC

    Hettites came around 2000 BC to East parts of modern Turkey

    so that is wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.
    ,


    Now about Brygian and Luwian/Lydian NO THERE IS NO CONNECTION except both IE,

    Luwian/Lydian is ancient Anatolian Family IE
    Brygian Greek (and Latin?) are another family, non Anatolian


    The First way to make connection among Troy and Dardanians
    is to Prove that Dardanians spoke a S Caucasian language, an Anatolian one,
    meaning, if you believe that today Albanians of Kossovo are linguistically the same, Albanian is Anatolian so S Caucasian language.

    The Other way to make connection among Troy and Dardanians
    is to prove that European IE and especially proto-Thracian, since Illyrian came after Brygians,
    but lets accept even Illyrian, a Celto-germanic language, enter to minor Asia, to Troy

    prove one of the 2 above,
    prove not claim,



    NOTICE,

    before Troyan war all devastations and IE population movement were from East to West, from Asia to Europe.
    Th 1rst colonization is the first move from Europe to Asia
    either by Greeks Aeoleis, either by Thracians Bithynoi etc


    This is the 1rst IE migration from Europe to Asia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Greek_migrations

    ABOUT SAMETIME MOVED THE THRACIANS TO BITHYNIA AND THE BRYGIANS TO PHRYGIA,
    WHO ENTER FIRST? GREEKS OR THRACIANS, I REALLY DO NOT CARE NOW

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What we know from Luwian was clearly related to Hittite linguistically and definitely part of Anatolian IE, very unlike Albanian or other Balkanic IE. What could perhaps be argued is that the late BA was a period of Balkan to Asia Minor immigration, and Dardanians also migrated from there like Phrygians, the firast Greek settlers and perhaps even Armenians. But I doubt the eventual Albanians would come from a back-migration making the reverse path. They might share some ancestors with themm, but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry).
    First of all, no such thing as Albanians at the time, do not put word in my mouth.
    Second of all provide me with a source that Luwian has no connection to proto-Balkanic languages. I have provided above a linguistic paper explicitly stating Luwian was a different language based on analysis to all other Hatti and Hittite languages in the area. That they were related, that is most definitively the case, where did I state otherwise? Them being distinct is another matter... ie: Latin and Italian are related, but they sure as hell ain't the same language... Btw all IE is related, and IIRC Hittite is considered IE too...

    "They might share some ancestors with them," - That's exactly what I am saying? "but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry)." Give me proof. Or at least use an argument to falsify my hypothesis. Oh, and do you not use sources too?

    Also, "Anatolian" Indo-European is a signifier of geography and location... Luwian is Anatolian Indo European, BY DEFINITION. What I am raising, as an hypothesis, is that Luwian might be related to proto-Balkanic languages (not Albanian as you would twist my words...) ie: Thracian, along with Illyrian, if there ever was such a language. I highly doubt it. Sounds just like another geographic signifier like Berber/Barbarians etc...

    Finally, I did not rule out earlier migration, or back migration. As Deride thankfully pointed out with sources such migration of the Dardans, albeit West to East is attested. I only pointed out, that following the sack of Troy and the Sea Peoples, a migration of local population made its way into the Balkans as refugees, along with the Dardans, returning to their mines westward.



    As for my personal belief, R1B was the local Balkan Pellasg population, * at the time of the J2B2 and E-V13 expansion post 1300BC. Notice... I am not ruling out branches of E-V13 J2B2 predating such influx through older branches mainland. In fact I am inclined to believe, that E-V13 and J2B2 were making their way across the Balkans along what would become the Western European coast of Rome through Italy, Spain, and even the South of England, up to as early as 2500BC.

    Anyways,

    PS: Regio.Dominus - Does it sound Latin to you? Latin? In >1000BC? In Western Anatolia? I don't know... Ill have to study some linguistics it seems.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 22-01-19 at 05:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    As for my personal belief, R1B was the local Balkan Pellasg population, * at the time of the J2B2 and E-V13 expansion post 1300BC. Notice... I am not ruling out branches of E-V13 J2B2 predating such influx through older branches mainland. In fact I am inclined to believe, that E-V13 and J2B2 were making their way across the Balkans along what would become the Western European coast of Rome through Italy, Spain, and even the South of England, up to as early as 2500BC.
    what?

    how come? any genetical source?
    or just a believe?

    The same Believe I had too,
    I believed E-V13 came around 2000 BC,
    But seems I was wrong,

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    First of all, no such thing as Albanians at the time, do not put word in my mouth.
    Second of all provide me with a source that Luwian has no connection to proto-Balkanic languages. I have provided above a linguistic paper explicitly stating Luwian was a different language based on analysis to all other Hatti and Hittite languages in the area. That they were related, that is most definitively the case, where did I state otherwise? Them being distinct is another matter... ie: Latin and Italian are related, but they sure as hell ain't the same language... Btw all IE is related, and IIRC Hittite is considered IE too....
    You mistook what I said: I said quite plainly that Luwian was like Hittite an Anatolian IE language, and by definition it was not particularly more related to any Paleo-Balkanic IE language, since Anatolian was certainly a branch of its own that split before any other IE subfamily and was therefore less related to any other IE language than any other two Late PIE-derived languages between themselves. In other words, Albanian and other Paleo-Balkanic attested languages weren't any closer to the likes of Luwian than to other groups like Italic, Celtic or Germanic. The relationship exists, but is traced back to PIE times, i.e. it's irrelevant for the issue at stake in this thread. Luwian not being Hittite does not mean that it belonged to a different branch nor that it was more related to other non-Anatolian IEs than Hittite was (though it could have been more influenced by them, but that's an entirely different matter, one of language strata, not linguistic origin).

    "Anatolian" is definitely not a geographical term only, it's a name that refers to a group of related languages that clearly formed a common node in the phylogenetic tree of PIE-derived languages. Spanish is not closer to German just because it is not the same as another Romance language like Italian or French. That reasoning is just misguided and based on some basic mistakes of linguistics (e.g. the idea that "Anatolian IE" is just a geographical label indicating location, not a valid language subfamily identified by linguistic methodology).

    As for Albanians not deriving a decisive part of their ancestry and especiall of their ethnic identity from Luwians, that can be demonstrated from the simple fact that their language is definitely unrelated to Luwian, and from the fact that even if Dardanians were part of the alliances that made Troy they were supposed, archaeologically and linguistically, to have come from the Balkans into Anatolia, not the other way around, and like Brygians and Greeks still existed after part of them migrated to Asia Minor the same thing certainly happened with Dardanians: some migrated, some stayed put.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    You mistook what I said: I said quite plainly that Luwian was like Hittite an Anatolian IE language, and by definition it was not particularly more related to any Paleo-Balkanic IE language, since Anatolian was certainly a branch of its own that split before any other IE subfamily and was therefore less related to any other IE language than any other two Late PIE-derived languages between themselves. In other words, Albanian and other Paleo-Balkanic attested languages weren't any closer to the likes of Luwian than to other groups like Italic, Celtic or Germanic. The relationship exists, but is traced back to PIE times, i.e. it's irrelevant for the issue at stake in this thread. Luwian not being Hittite does not mean that it belonged to a different branch nor that it was more related to other non-Anatolian IEs than Hittite was (though it could have been more influenced by them, but that's an entirely different matter, one of language strata, not linguistic origin).

    "Anatolian" is definitely not a geographical term only, it's a name that refers to a group of related languages that clearly formed a common node in the phylogenetic tree of PIE-derived languages. Spanish is not closer to German just because it is not the same as another Romance language like Italian or French. That reasoning is just misguided and based on some basic mistakes of linguistics (e.g. the idea that "Anatolian IE" is just a geographical label indicating location, not a valid language subfamily identified by linguistic methodology).

    As for Albanians not deriving a decisive part of their ancestry and especiall of their ethnic identity from Luwians, that can be demonstrated from the simple fact that their language is definitely unrelated to Luwian ​(Source for this would be greatly appreciated), and from the fact that even if Dardanians were part of the alliances that made Troy they were supposed, archaeologically and linguistically, to have come from the Balkans into Anatolia, not the other way around, and like Brygians and Greeks still existed after part of them migrated to Asia Minor the same thing certainly happened with Dardanians: some migrated, some stayed put.
    I will not comment on your first two paragraphs, as I believe we have a disagreement on a conceptual level. Anatolian implies region. IE implies language. Anatolian IE, implies the IE languages spoken in Anatolia.

    You have the burden to falsify the hypothesis, and not simply state its false by not providing any facts or mutually exclusive counterpoints.
    1. Provide proof or counterexample for your statement that: there is no cultural (identity) continuum between, what late classical, proto-Greek writers would consider Illyrians (in the context of Dardania, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Albania Proper.) In the future I shall attempt research connecting culture, hierarchy structure, as well as symbols, and will post in this thread my findings.
    2. Provide proof or counterexample for your statement that: there was no ethnic continuum (ie: gene glow connection, whichever way) during 2000-1000BC between Western Anatolia and Balkans, including but not limited to, proto-Italic, proto-Greek, proto-Albanian, as well, if I might dare Triballi and Illyri Propi Dicti. In this regard I do not have to do any further research, I believe the gene pool in the Balkans, along with the historical context speaks for itself.

    @Yetos

    That is just my belief, don't have concrete evidence as of yet. However the die has been cast, and if we get our hands and test more ancient DNA samples, that data alone will be enough to prove or disprove my hypothesis.



    =============================================

    Edit for clarity:
    I am not implying there is strong evidence for my hypothesis. I am implying there is circumstantial evidence. What should be stressed is, that so far there is no definite proof to the contrary, nor reason to believe so, outside of historical dogma and status quo, and as such, the contrary should not dully be assumed factual. Note: After obtaining the phonetic key, I can understand 3-4/6 personal pronouns from Luwian based on Current Albanian, and what is really peculiar is that they have Dare - To Give - Similar to Italian Dare - Albanian Dhash - Russian - Serbo - Croatian - Davav - Davaj. As well as they have a verb ip-ye, but since its hieroglyphic Luwian, it could also be the case that its reading would have yielded ye-ip, also meaning to give, Current Albanian JEP (to give). (What a coincidence, amIrite?) Albanian: Une (ty) ta jap. I give you. (with you implied within the verb, Ai (mua) ma dha . He gave me (with me implied withing the verb).

    Now what is interesting is that it is the same action, in today IE , whether you give someone, or someone gives you. Its "give". But in Luwian it seems, based on what I have read, that was not the case. Meaning, depending if giving, or having gotten something, the very verb is different. Usually, the pronouns (mua) /(ty); (to me) /(to you) are implied within the verb with a suffix, but certain verbs completely change their root. To give.... seems to be one of them, in essence when implying the context weather you give, recieve(?).Someone help me with the rigorousness of the logic here, since I might be completely off.

    Further note on above point. Considering the societies in Bronze Age Anatolia were miners of gold out of Electroneum from the rivers, as well as traders, this could explain their base in Dardania. Such linages of E-V13 people could be the rumored E-V13: Rhaetian in the Austrian Alps, as well as Goth in Daskalogen (this is another topic that deserves its own thread) , as well as Corwnwall in England, and Minoan Crete...

    Anyone know what Ilium, Turkey; Tirol, Austria; Daskalogen, Sweeden; Cornwall, England; and Minoan Crete have in common? Hmm... Pb... Au... Ag and that sort of thing. Not sure how Galicia, Spain fits here, since I am not aware about their metal riches but it is worth exploring.

    Caravans/ships connecting the abovementioned ancient world could have existed, based on newly adopted technologies such as farming, smithing, herding in a menlting pot on the Crescent ~>4000 Years ago. And with the fall of the system around 3.3k BP, such lines might have vanished for hundreds of years, creating local pools of genetically peculiar population, that were later integrated in other societies. Would explain E-V13 through the whole EU for one. Not sure what else it could explain.

    Edit 5: Collapsed points 3 and 4 into 1.

    tawi(ya)- 'hand over, deliver'Pret3Sg ta-ra-a-u-i-it-ta: 54 ii 36 (+ pari).Imv3Sg da-ra-u-id-du: 45 ii 25.da-ra-ú-id-du: 45 ii 26e.[da]-ra-u-i-id-du: 48 ii 21.

    Ta dha (AL) He gave you (EN) : with dha being a past perfect (?,haven't done grammar in 10 years) for for the verb gave, with the form of its root implying the pronouns (AL:ty) (EN:to you). In essence Ai ty ta dha. He to you gave. However, we know in Luwian the verb goes first, meaning first the action and then object, with subject implied on the verb through the root, or suffix. In essence rendering "He to you gave" to something akin to " Gave/Giveth*** (with the variant(although completely different root) in the verb implying the pronoun to you, subject). In essence, modern Albanian version based on that word order Ta-dha(subject relation signifier as prefix + verb root). I would not be surprised if we even find hieroglyphs with versions of same meaning, to give, but with the form Dha-ti Dha-ty. Meaning, with the subject relation signifier as a suffix instead of as a prefix. Slavic:Ti Davav(dadov?) / Davav(dadov)-ti. Italian: Ti o datto / Ho datto-a-te.

    Another interesting, and intriguing speculation: If anyone searches for a hieroglyph of a Horned Cow (or are those ears LMAO)... It has been deciphered using bi-lingual inscriptions between Luwian (proto-Pyrgian) and Phoenician that phonetically it sounds like Ka, Kah. Does it look peculiar just to me?

    Frequency

    Source:
    https://translate.google.com/?um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#sq/en/ka
    there are ka
    there is ka
    Noun
    ox dem, ka, buall
    bullock ka
    neat dem, lopë, ka



    For my fellow Albanophones in this forum with knowledge of linguistics, if anyone wants to contribute to the topic here are some research materials:

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~j...ian%20case.pdf
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2331750...n_tab_contents
    https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf PG 221 Tarawi example given above.
    https://www.academia.edu/12302125/Hi...anian_language - Nevermind this guys' misleading, agenda driven title, mind his provided lexicon.

    And finally where I first noticed I could recognize Luwian pronouns, and verbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc 19:47 When my lightbulb lit. I think it helped me the fact that I know both Gheg and Tosk strains of Albanian, since JEP (TOSK) EIP / EJPI (Gheg).

    Edit4. Also of interest: C(k)apere - Luwian, Anatolian IE: To take. Modern Italian: Capisco - I understand/To Grasp. Modern Albanian: Kap - Grab, Grasp.
    Guess what the hieroglyph looks like? Like an extended hand.... 26:15 In the video provided above, since some people like to believe their eyes and academic sources. Those I provide... unlike the above naysayers.


    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...vi_CAPERE2.jpg
    etermination in the Anatolian Hieroglyphic Script of the Empire and Transitional Period


    Dr. Annick Payne


    Published Online: 2017-12-01 | DOI: https://doi.org/10.1515/aofo-2017-0019

    https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/aof...17-0019_59.jpg


    Language ain't about sounds... or letters, or hieroglyphs, or pictograms, or words. Language is a function of meaning, only broken into the above-mentioned "human constructs" out of necessity and progeny.

    ================================================== ================================================

    PS: Infamy among the craven, only adds to my self worth and honor. So keep downvoting out of spite and envy.

    Yet I call unto you, to step out of ignorance, and acknowledge what is in front of your face.
    Are you going to deny light ad memento mori too? I doubt it...





    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 23-01-19 at 14:38.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    "*taræuntiti(ya)- (kind of bread)Only in Hitt. GSg taræuntitiyaš at XII 16 i 16*; XX 12,3*.8. Asper Starke, StBoT 31.186f, -iya- adj. < *taræuntit-, but lattermay be directly < taræunt-, not *taræunti(ya)-." pg 212

    Asking my fellow Albos what Tërhan means for the Gegs, or Tranana means for the Tosks?

    This Map makes so much sense according to my theory. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Satem_map.png




    ================================================== ======
    "āppa 'back; again' (preverb)a-ap-pa: 35,4; 39 iii 8; 48 iii 12*; 54 ii 12.39*.iii 6.23.38; 65 iii14; 95,9; IX 31 ii 25; KBo XXIX 6 Vo 15.ap-pa(?): KBo IV 11,51;
    VIII 17,2. " --pg 20.

    Gegnisht - Oppet, Apet. alternative per prape, perseri ne Toskerisht?
    ================================================== ======
    "āra/i- 'time'ASg a-ri-in: 133 ii 29; 138,2e.a-a-ri-in: 15 ii(!) 4; KBo IX 141 iv 14.D-LSg a-a-ri-i: KBo IX 141 i 15.AbI a-a-ra-ti: KBo IX 143 iii(!) 14.a-ra-a-ti: 16 i 12; 43 ii 39*.Morpurgo-Davies, Gs Cowgill 21831. The incomplete exx. at 8i 9, 36,7, and 68,6 may belong here or to the verb ariya-." --pg 24.



    Ora? Hour? Mythological fairies dealing with time. Arrija? Mberrija? Arrive?
    ================================================== ======
    "A)æūppa- '?'N-ASg æu-u-up-pa-an-za: KBo XXIX 56,8.D-LSg æu-u-up-pí: XXV 39 iv 14.GenAdjN-ASgNt æu-u-up-pa-aš-ša-an: 88 iii 3*; 89,6*.Grammatical analysis of all three forms and combination intoone paradigm by no means certain! Cf. also perh. 133 iv13*." --pg 73.


    E, u hupa asaj ane.

    A e houpi?

    A u pa Anza? - Might be name.

    Edited to provide note: It seems instead of having punctuation marks, Luwians might have used A, E at the beginning of sentences to imply the intention of the sentence, ie: weather a question, or a statement.
    If my above conjecture has any basis on reality, we would expect "O!", to potentially imply orders or make a call, in Albanian (Kallzore). Further research is needed... yet the avenue of speculation could prove fruitful.
    ================================================== ===========================
    https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf

    CUNEIFORM LUVIAN LEXICON H. CRAIG MELCHERT 2001
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 23-01-19 at 04:47.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I will not comment on your first two paragraphs, as I believe we have a disagreement on a conceptual level. Anatolian implies region. IE implies language. Anatolian IE, implies the IE languages spoken in Anatolia.
    Archetype

    Plz Man

    Anatolian is a Family of IE languages,

    IS A FAMILY OF LANGUAGES

    Luwian from Hettit distance
    might be same as Dutch from Deutsch or Scands or Gothic

    or as a S Slavic language from Polish or Czech or Slovak,
    for example how much is Serbian or Croatian from Polish or Slovakian?
    the max distance is S Slavic from Russian or Lithuanian
    that is the distance among Luwian with Hettite

    To Understand
    Luwian is not hettite
    BUT
    Luwian is a daughter of Anatolian PIE
    Same Hettite
    we can say that both are a kind of Anatolian PIE dialect
    before they evolute

    Notice
    today Dutch is not Deutsch neither Austrian
    BUT THEY ALL ONCE SPRUNG FROM PROTO_GERMANIC LANGUAGES.


    for you the link bellow

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

    IT SAYS
    ''The Anatolian languages are an extinctfamily of Indo-European languages that were spoken in Asia Minor (ancient Anatolia), the best attested of them being the Hittite language.''
    'how do you connect Albanian a vivid and spoken language with the extinct ones'
    or do you believe that Albanian is connected with Hettite?
    since you connect it with Luwian, and Luwian is same family with Hettite,




    PART 2

    ALBANIAN LANGUAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRYGIAN GREEK AND CELTIC LANGUAGES.
    UNDERSTAND THAT. IS a LANGUAGE OF ITS OWN.

    PIE *'g
    Greek g
    Brygian g
    Celtic g
    Albanian ð, d

    PIE *gw
    Brygian b
    Greek b d
    Albanian g, z

    PIE *gwh
    Brygian g
    Greek kh
    Albanian g


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    Whatever bro... When you learn Albanian come and we can have a coffee. You do not speak my language, literally, nor figuratively.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Whatever bro... When you learn Albanian come and we can have a coffee. You do not speak my language, literally, nor figuratively.
    Archetype

    Look at this

    PART 2

    ALBANIAN LANGUAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRYGIAN GREEK AND CELTIC LANGUAGES.
    UNDERSTAND THAT. IS a LANGUAGE OF ITS OWN.

    PIE *'g
    Greek g
    Brygian g
    Celtic g
    Albanian ð, d

    PIE *gw
    Brygian b
    Greek b d
    Albanian g, z

    PIE *gwh
    Brygian g
    Greek kh
    Albanian g


    BUT
    ALBANIAN
    GREEK
    BRYGIAN
    etc

    THEY ARE IE,
    so words with no aspirations, No changing
    ARE JUST THE SAME


    notice this

    the word is Door in English
    from PIE dhwer

    Albanian Dera Dere keep the D
    Netherlands Duer
    ProtoGermanic Durz
    PErsian Dar
    Lithuanian Durys
    All keep the D

    But Greek Θυρα !!!! no D
    But Latin Foris !!!!! no D

    But All is IE
    but languages different evolution


    As for the coffee
    thank you man for invitation
    that would be wonderfull


    the most easy to read is Grimm's law,
    how PIE evolute to proto-Germanic,
    Understanding that I am sure you will find on how your language evolute from PIE.
    and believe me you will feel great, and refreshed, and releafed,
    cause in Linguistic is easy to make mistakes.
    I my shelf, I am used to catch my shelf inside a linguistic trap,
    these laws will help,

    for example why all Germanic have F for word foot or fart etc
    but all others have P
    Greek Pous-Podos
    Latin Pes
    Albanian shPute
    Hettite Pata

    that observation is also a linguistic Law, called Grimm's
    not of my own.

    thank you if you read my post

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Actually, Brygian and Macedonian phonology is more similar to Albanian in many instances.

    We have the famous example of the Albanian word for bread: "Bukë" from Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'.

    Compare the Phrygian "Bekos" (also meaning Bread) in the famous Pharoah story from Herodotus.

    The Ancient Greek φώγω (phgō, “roast”, verb) shows quite a different development...

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    4 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Actually, Brygian and Macedonian phonology is more similar to Albanian in many instances.

    We have the famous example of the Albanian word for bread: "Bukë" from Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'.

    Compare the Phrygian "Bekos" (also meaning Bread) in the famous Pharoah story from Herodotus.

    The Ancient Greek φώγω (phgō, “roast”, verb) shows quite a different development...

    Also, Macedonian seems to have had a phonological feature that marks it as quite different from Greek dialects.

    This is the correspondence of a sound written with B, to Ph in Greek.

    Crossland says that this change puts Macedonian closer in phonology to Illyrian and Thracian than to Greek.

    (R. A. Crossland, "The Language of the Macedonians", Cambridge Ancient History III, 1 (1982) 843-47.)

    Important to note the Albanian has this phonological feature today also.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Actually, Brygian and Macedonian phonology is more similar to Albanian in many instances.

    We have the famous example of the Albanian word for bread: "Bukë" from Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'.

    Compare the Phrygian "Bekos" (also meaning Bread) in the famous Pharoah story from Herodotus.

    The Ancient Greek φώγω (phgō, “roast”, verb) shows quite a different development...
    hmm

    Interesting, I will put +1 fame for that tough observation, truth
    Now plz explain us how PIE *bh to B and *h3 or *g to K
    in Albanian language,under which IE linguistic law,

    There is a chance that in Proto-Greek so in Makedonian to be Βωγω
    But the PIE might be Bheh3g not bʰōg


    But
    if you can not prove under which law PIE *Bh turns to B as also the rest *h3 *g or *'g
    then word Buke for bread maybe is not Albanian, it could be a loan,


    for example the English bag from PIE *bhak how should be in Albanian,

    I leave that to you to find out.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Te bekofte Zoti o Yetos, se ja ke fut kot e ke nevojë.*

    Edited to note something meaningful: "Blessed be the Lord, O Yet, that thou hast gone in vain, and needest." - That is the google translate rendition of my colloquial Albanian* phrase to Yetos above. Even a machine such as Googles system can decipher the deeper meaning conveyed by the sentence, as opposed to the modern colloquial English rendition of the very same sentence "God bless you Yetos, cause you are full of crap, and you need it."

    If a machine notices such features, let him who has eyes also notice.



    ===============================================

    (˚)æuta- 'haste, alacrity'NSg ˚æu-u-ta-aš: XXIII 1 iv 20.21.ASg æu-u-ta-an: 92 Ro 27.30.Base of æutarla- 'slave, servant'. See Eichner, Or 52.57ff, andalso Starke, StBoT 31.362ff, but æūta is merely collectiveplural to the anim. stem! " --pg 78

    Might be related to AL for huti. Eg. Në huti e siper. Also "hutuar" in Albanian means mad. The root of the word could stem from "Hutohu!" might denominate the equivalent to what is in western languages "(Go)Berzerk! " Note: Go, is implied by the mode the verb is found in "hutohu". In essence Hutohu would mean (You) (Go) Berzerk + suffix in order to create a verb. The verb would be used in modern Albanian with a (!) because of its mode. Some dialects render this word as "huteja". Ho-u-ta-u.
    ===============================================
    "æuišti- 'cry of (birth)pain' (?)NSg æu-u-i-iš-ti-iš: 87,6.NPl æu-iš-ti-in-zi: 102 iv 8*; 103 iii 8; KBo VIII 130 iii 6*.æu-u-iš-ti-in-zi: 143,8; 145 ii 1*.æu-u-i-iš-ti-in-zi: 108,4.[æu-u-i]š-te-in-zi: XVII 15 ii 6* (error for acc.!)APl æu-u-iš-ti-in-za: 145 ii 14." --pg 83

    Might be related to AL "hujdi". U be hujdi n mejdan. Xhullurdi could be related also. Albanian for chaos, panic.
    ===============================================
    "īkkunānt(i)- '?' (to preceding, but sense unclear)ASg ik-ku-na-a-an-ti-en: 35,3." --pg 86

    Might be related to Albanian kunat. Can't recall which family member it was.
    ===============================================
    *īlæā(i)- 'wash'Pres1Sg el-æa-ú-i: KBo XXIX 49 Ro 3.4.Pres3Sg il-æa-ti: XXVII 26,6 (+ -ti).Pret1Sg e-el-æa-a-æa: 93 Ro(!) 8.9*.Imv3Sg e-el-æa-a-du: 39 ii 14 (+ -ti).Meaning with Meriggi, WZKM 53.223, and Athenaeum 35.62.Cf. also 39 iii 11*. " --pg87

    Might be related to AL, laj, wash.

    "ililæā- 'wash (off)'Pres3Sg i-li-il-æa-a-i: 21 Vo 30 (+ -ti).[i-li-i]l-æ[a]-i: XXXII 9 Ro 16* (+ -ti).[i-l]i-el-æa-a-i: 62,2* (+ -ti).Imv3Pl e-li-el-æa-a-an-du: 39 ii 10.26 (both + -mmaš as refl.). e-li-el-æa-an-du: 39 ii 4. -pg 87. Note: Not a duplicate.

    Here it should be noted the the main difference between the above examples is the genitive prefix in Albanian of "i". In this case implying the gender of the subject being washed, through the pre-fix. Here the initial "i" implies the gender of the subject of the verb is masculine, as opposed to the prefix used for feminine subjects, "e". eg: I laj, E lan.

    ===============================================
    "imma 'indeed'im-ma: 133 iii 10.11; KBo IV 11,50.51; XIII 261,3.Asseverative particle = Hitt. imma and HLuv. i-ma 'idem'." --pg 88.

    Might be connected to Albanian nimen, ni (singular) men(mind), meaning something aking to asuredly/surely in English. eg: " Me nimen... "

    ===============================================

    Need I go scower the other 200 pages of the lexicon, to provide enough proof to you Yetos? Anyways, why do you care so dearly about Albanian mate? xD


    Or Ygorcs for that matter... If he is gong to claim to me now that Albanian has no connection to Bronze Age Anatolian IE he better have some good proof and sources...

    Edit: Adding more for fun ; ).

    ================================================== ===========================

    "iræatta- 'circle'DSg ir-æa-a-at-t[i]: IBoT II 19,5.ir-æa-at-ti: XXV 32 + XXVII 70 ii 16.49.iii 12.APl ir-æa-at-ta-an-za: XX 74 vi 9. " --pg 91

    Might be related to Albanian: Rreth , Rrota; Italian: Ruota. Someone from some mountainous village would easily sound like he is saying Roaeta in his own dialect. Coincidentally such a person would call his belt (circular) Rreyp.

    ================================================== ===========================

    "lāla/i- 'tongue; gossip'NSg EME-iš: 21 Ro 26.27.Vo 21*.24.; 28 i 6; 29 i 4*; 49 iv 8; 77 ii 3;XXXII 9 Ro 9; KBo XXIX 7,4; XXIX 52,3.la-li-iš: KBo XXIX 38 Vo 18(?).ASg la-a-li-in: XXV 37 ii 38(?).(UZU)EME-in: 21 Vo 31; 23,2*; 28 i 10; 29 i 8*.14*; 43 ii 30.iii37; 45 iii 17.19.25; 59 ii 5*.8; 70 ii 5; 77 iii 1; XXXII 8+5iii 14.19; KBo VII 68 ii 17; XXIX 5,4*; XXIX 46,3.EME-en: KBo XXII 254 Ro 7*.9.EME-an(!): 58 iii 11.NPl EME.MEŠ-in-zi: 49 iv 1.2.EME-in-[zi]: 59 ii 8*.AbIn EME-ti: 21 Vo 32*.34; 23,3; 24,4*; 26,8; 48 iii 6; 51 iii 5; 58,5;76,2; KBo XXIX 21,2; XXX 190 iii 3.GenAdjDLa-la-aš-ši-: KBo IV 13 i 5.Unclear EME-ma at 54 ii 5: ptc. of denom. verb?? Cf. perh.lāliya. Although reading lāla/i- for 'tongue' is virtuallycertain, the contexts do not guarantee that the exx. lališ andlālin belong here. " --pg122

    Might be related to Albanian llapa (toungue), llaf/llafi (word).

    =========================================

    "mallit- 'honey'N-ASg ma-al-li: 39 ii 12.16.28*.ma-al--i-: XXXII 8+5 iii 27.D-LSg LÀL-i: 69,10 (// Ì-i).133AbIn ma-al-li-i-ta-a-ti: 39 ii 3*.11.ma-al-li-ta-a-ti: 39 ii 27.iii 11* (contra DLL 33, StBoT 30.114).Contra Starke, StBoT 31.192f, regular reflex of CA *mélid-,"lenited" from *mélit-. Hitt. militt- (thus w/Starke) hasundone lenition, as usual." --pg 132.

    Might be related to Albanian mjalt (honey), but also Albanian "mall":


    noun

    commodity mall, produkt, artikull

    goods mall, pronë, ngarkesë, gjëra të nevojshme, sende personale

    longing dëshirë e madhe, mall, përgjërim, dëshirim, gllënjkë

    yearning mall, dëshirë e zjarrtë

    nostalgia nostalgji, mall, mall për të kaluarën

    ================================================

    "æūæa- 'grandfather'AbIn æu-u-æa-ti: KBo IX 141 i 3.For correct reading see Starke, StBoT 30.126. Cf. for form withsingle -æ- Lyc. xuga- (regularly < *h2éuh2o- vs. Hitt.æuææa-). " --pg71

    Most likely related to Albanian Gjyshë, grandfather.

    Interestingly enough as can be further seen:

    "æuæat(t)alla/i- 'of one's grandfather, ancestral'N-APlNt æu-æa--da-al-l[a]: XXXIII 106 ii 61.Luvian, not Hittite, as per Starke, KZ 100.260f & StBoT 31.306,as shown by suffix -alla/i-. Base seen in HLuv. /huhat(i)-/." --pg

    The above plural for grandfathers, takes similar ending to some local dialects, Gjyshallarë (albeit rare and archaic), alternatively Toskses and Ghegs might use the plural Gjyshër. Similar to how Baballare (of one;s father, ancestral) takes plural in Albanian.

    ================================================

    parran 'before, in front'Postposition: pár-ra-an: 21 Ro 17.Vo 32; 53,14*; 54 ii 40.iii 7; 55,10; KBoXXIX 52,7.Preverb: pár-ra-a-an: XXV 39 iv 20.Indeterminate: 35,4*; 63,3.= Hitt. pēran, HLuv. pa+ra/i-n(a). " --pg166

    Per-para (AL) Before(.) In-front(.), Forth(!) (EN)

    Also I remember reading about a positive attribution of "Priam" - as deriving from "courageous" "leader"... will add source once i find it in my bookmarks.
    In modern Albanian i Pari - means the First. While Prijës means Leader. That's why I bookmarked the source. Till then, I will use the current source I have to legitimize such hypothesis.


    "paræ(a)- 'drive, chase' (?)Imv3Sg pár-æa-ad-du: XXV 39 iv 10.Istanuvian variant of par(a)- above without deletion of -æ-? " pg 167-8

    "parī 'forth, away'+ patza-: 54 iii 9.11.+ šā-: KBo XXIX 35,11; XXIX 44 RC 6.+ tarawiya-: 54 ii 35.+ wiši-: 98,13; 110,7 (pa-ri-i).+ ?: 60 iii 2 (parī(y)=ata); 85,2 (parī[ ]); KBo VII 68 ii 18(pari=pa).= HLuv. pa+ra/i, Hitt. parā. Cf. also KBo XXIX 28,12 andparittarwa-. The form pa-a-ri at 133 iv 13 is quite unclear " pg 168

    (˚)tapar- 'rule, govern'Pres2Sg ta-pár-ši: XXXI 136 iii 3.Pret1Sg ˚t/da-pár-æa: I 1 i 27.65.ii 61.74; XIX 56 i 4; KBo III 6 i 23.ii46.53.Pret3Sg (˚)ta-pa-ar-ta: XIV 4 i 8.11.17; KBo III 4 iii 73.76; XVI 17 iii 31.ta-pár-ta: XIV 17 ii 35.57.Imv3Sg ˚ta-pár-du: I 1 iv 78.Inf ta-pa-ru-na: XIX 29 iv 21.As per Starke, StBoT 31.259, w/refs., 2ary stem < *tapariyaseen in HLuvian and Hitt. borr. taparriya(i)-.

    tap(a)ramman- 'ruling, governing'N-APl ta-pa-ra-am-ma: IX 34 iii 39.Action noun to preceding. See Starke, StBoT 31.259.

    ==================================================

    Edit to add the sources I mention beforehand:
    "Most scholars take the etymology of the name from the Luwian (Pa-ri-a-mu-a-, or “exceptionally courageous”)[1][2] and was attested as the name of a man from Zazlippa, in Kizzuwatna. A similar form is attested transcribed in Greek as Paramoas near Kaisareia in Cappadocia.[3]

    A popular folk etymology derives the name from the Greek verb priamai, meaning 'to buy'. This in turn gives rise to a story of Priam's sister Hesione ransoming his freedom from Heracles, thereby 'buying' him.[4] This story is attested in the Bibliotheca and in other influential mythographical works dated to the first and second centuries AD.[5] These sources should be taken with a grain of salt, however, as they do date to a much later period in antiquity than the first attestations of the name Priamos or Pariya-muwas are found in."

    Much corruption, such WOW.


    Pa-rim / Pa-rim-i - (AL) for Principle / The Principle
    Pa-ra / Pa-rat - (AL) for Money / The Money

    Now, which comes first in human development, Principles or money?
    Or for that matter what is more important and hence primal ?



    My man laying the law above... He had his priorites straight, unlike proto-Greek folk two centuries before him. Righteousness can not be bought, neither courage, neither principle, neither leadership.



    But I guess in second century BC, whoever wrote the Bibliotheca from the proto-Greeks, had lost his principles, thinking the ethymology similar to "pari" "money" for... Parim " principle"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam


    "King Priam is the Trojan king in Homer's 'The Iliad'. He is a caring father and courageous king, but he lets Paris, his son, do as he pleases, which results in the fight with the Achaeans. This lesson teaches you all about King Priam's character."

    https://study.com/academy/lesson/king-priam-in-the-iliad-characteristics-analysis.html

    ================================================== ===========


    "pupulā[ ] 'write'Form? pu-pu-la-a-[ ]: KBo XXIX 34 i 15.Cf. HLuv. pu-pu-la- 'write'." --pg 179

    Albanian "pupla" means feather...


    ================================================== =

    "puppušša- 'crush'P3SgM pu-up-pu-uš-ša--ta-ri: VII 38+ iii 13.Starke, StBoT 31.332. Redup. iter. to puwa-. Cf. *pušša-. " pg 179

    Albanian përplasa means smash.

    ================================================== ===

    šarra '(up)on; thereon'Preposition: šar-ra: 14 i 9*; XXXII 8+5 iv 22.Adverb: šar-ra: 124 ii 5.ša-ar-ra: 103 iii 14.Indeterminate: šar-ra: 49 i 4; 65 iii 9; 123 iv 4*; XXXII 13,11.ša-ar-r[a]: 137 Vo 1.Cf. šarri. Formal relationship to šarri and Hitt. šarā notentirely clear " pg 188

    šarri 'above; up' also 'for'?Adverb: šar-ri: 45 ii 25; 48 ii 19*; IX 34 i 10-11; KBo XXIX 10,8; IBoT99,9-10.Preverb: ša-ar-ri: 88 iii 13.Preposition: šar-ri: VII 53 + XII 58 i 58.59.Postposition: šar-ri: KBo XXIX 16 ii 3.4 (?).= Hitt. šēr

    ================================================== ====

    tāta/i- 'father'N/VSg ta-a-ti-iš: 68,16; 95,6; 103 ii 9.16; KBo IX 141 i 19.ASg ta-a-ti-in: KBo IX 143 iii(!) 10.D-LSg da-a-ti-i: 107 iii 10; KBo XIII 260 ii 33*(?).[d]a-a-ti: KBo XXIX 52,7.NPl ta-ti-in-zi: IX 31 ii 30; HT 1 ii 6.= HLuv. ta-ta/i- and Lyc. *tede-. Stem w/"i-motion" assured byHLuv. & deriv. tatalla/i-, pace Starke, KZ 100.254 et aliter


    Në emër t'At'it, të birit, dhe të shpirtitë të shenjtë.

    I Ati
    Atit
    Atin

    Note again: When we input the above sentence of colloquial Albanian into google translate. We get the following output:
    "In the name of Father, son, and holy spirits.

    Meaning, Google's system can detect the rule for,
    t'at'it meaning father, rather than other just as viable possibilities such as "of his(tëatitë/tëatija)". As for the translations of the verbs in their respective forms: Father (His Father) / Father's (Of His Father)/ The Father ( His Father(e)st? beyond my ability to explain in English).
    It should be noted there is no such form as T'AT'IT in Modern Albanian, instead the modern verb collapses to one of the above modes... How google set up a system that can catch that... that is beyond me.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 23-01-19 at 19:54.

  25. #125
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Also, Macedonian seems to have had a phonological feature that marks it as quite different from Greek dialects.

    This is the correspondence of a sound written with B, to Ph in Greek.

    Crossland says that this change puts Macedonian closer in phonology to Illyrian and Thracian than to Greek.

    (R. A. Crossland, "The Language of the Macedonians", Cambridge Ancient History III, 1 (1982) 843-47.)

    Important to note the Albanian has this phonological feature today also.
    Here is the full quote:

    "The equation (Macedonian) άβρούτες /(Greek) όΦρύες (Skt. bhru- Avestan. br{u)vat-, MIrish. bruad-) shows that the labial sound was the Macedonian reflex of Indo-European *bh.

    The change of the Indo-European voiced aspirates (bh, dh, gh) to voiceless aspirates (Φ ,θ,χ) was one of the developments which were shared by all recognized Greek dialects and which differentiate Greek from other Indo-European languages.

    If a putative Macedonian dialect of prehistoric Greek did not share it, then it would have become differentiated before any other dialect became equally aberrant and it seems unlikely that those who spoke it would thereafter have remained in sufficiently close linguistic contact with those who spoke the other dialects to remain intelligible to them and develop in common the subsequent innovations which are characteristic of Greek as a whole.

    On the other hand, if the late prehistoric form of Macedonian had shared the change of voiced aspirates to voiceless it seems improbable that the resulting voiceless phonemes would subsequently have changed back to voiced phonemes generally in Macedonian by the fifth century B.C.The change puts Macedonian closer to Illyrian and Thracian in phonology than to Greek"

    R. A. Crossland,
    "The Language of the Macedonians",
    Cambridge Ancient History III, 1
    Pg 846

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