Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

[Archetype0ne]

"Heracles, whom Zeus had originally intended to be ruler of Argos, Lacedaemon and Messenian Pylos, had been supplanted by the cunning of Hera, and his intended possessions had fallen into the hands of Eurystheus, king of Mycenae. After the death of Heracles, his children, after many wanderings, found refuge from Eurystheus at Athens. Eurystheus, on his demand for their surrender being refused, attacked Athens, but was defeated and slain."


This IMO is what set in motion the differentiation of proto-Greeks with proto-Albanians. To this day we have genetic difference between Athens and Argos (Achea+Morea) reflecting this split.
"Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus, but after a year's stay were forced by a pestilence to quit. They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons, Pamphylus and Dymas, voluntarily submitted to Hyllus, who thus became ruler of the Dorians, the three branches of that race being named after these three heroes. Being desirous of reconquering his paternal inheritance, Hyllus consulted the Delphic oracle, which told him to wait for "the third fruit," and then enter Peloponnesus by "a narrow passage by sea."

Supposedly they tried to invade Aechean Greeks 3 times, failing, explaining the ~300 years it took for the Dorian invasion to finally mean anything.

"The Heracleidae ruled in Lacedaemon until 221 BC, but disappeared much earlier in the other countries. This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heracleidae," is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical. " Especially bolded so Markod wont miss it.

Heracles was a slave turned to legendary Hero and King in western Anatolia. Etrusci claimed descent of Heracles. Dorians claimed descent of Heracles. In Virgils Aeneid Apollonia and Ilium (Ancient Epirus) were founded by Troyan refugees, some of which ended in Etruria...

If anyone plans to take my words and to misuse them saying I am implying Etruscans and Proto Albanians as same entity do not even try. Have already posted proof enough that Troy/Ilium was a multi entity league. What is written black and white by Homer, Herodotus, Strabo, Virgil is simply that "some" of the ancestors of modern Etruscans were of the same tribe as the Dardani, and Aenea himself was a Dardan.

If anyone wants additional sources to understand what the hell I am talking about:

https://indo-european.info/ie/Paleo-Balkan_languages

https://indo-european.eu/haplogroup...ion-was-associated-with-proto-indo-europeans/

https://indo-european.eu/tag/wilusija/

https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/co...and-the-potential-anatolian-expansion-routes/

======================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Trojan_race

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iardanus_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardys_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyllus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyllus_(river)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamander

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gegania_(gens)

========================


Strabo on the Troad;

Virgils Aeneid;


Homers Iliad;

 

[Boreas]

@ boreas

Τηλεμαχος
Τηλεφος
Τηλεφασσα,
Τηλεβολον
Τηλεγονος
Τηλεβοας
Tελος
Τηλεσκοπιον

Τηλε means away, afar, far off,

words like
Telephone in Greek is away-voice
Television away-vision
Telegraph
etc,

Τηλε = Tele Greek form of IE *k^wel

Is Hittite names which I gave also Greek originate or coming from same IE root, Which makes it definitely not 100% / pure Mycenean-Greek?

---------------------------------------

Is there any Trojan DNA sample?

 

[Boreas]

Is there full map? Source of Map, please?

 

[Archetype0ne]

Is there full map? Source of Map, please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...f,_Strabo_on_the_Troad_(1923).png#filehistory

About DNA.... I wish. Tried to find ancient tested samples related to this period to no avail.

 

[Yetos]

Is Hittite names which I gave also Greek originate or coming from same IE root, Which makes it definitely not 100% / pure Mycenean-Greek?

---------------------------------------

Is there any Trojan DNA sample?

Boreas

Tηλε Tele is Mycenean Greek,

if one Hettite found as Telipinu
while so many Mycenean-Greek as Wrote to you
as the evolution from IE
does not change it

https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/τῆλε

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/τῆλε

plz do not insist it is Hittite

IE *kwel,
but Greek τηλε
in another IE might be different

 

[Yetos]

@ ArchetypeOne

in an effort to help you, or enrich your names
I give this

Illuyanka of Hettites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka

now as you notice
Hyllous river means
either eel living river, like Hellopotamos, and possibly Enhelleis
either snake form river, the later Greek Maiandros from minor Asia omonymos river

from *hillu
English eel
Latin anguilla
Greek Heli Eγχελυον

 

[Archetype0ne]

Not really helpful Yetos, in case that was your genuine intention...

"Middle Bronze Age[edit]

Certain evidence of the Luwians begins around 2000 BC, with the presence of personal names and loan words in Old Assyrian Empire documents from the Assyrian colony of Kültepe, dating from between 1950 and 1700 BC (Middle Chronology), which shows that Luwian and Hittite were already two distinct languages at this point. According to most scholars, the Hittites were then settled in upper Kızılırmak and had their economic and political centre at Kaniš-Neša (from which the Hittite language gained its native name, nešili). The Luwians most likely lived in southern and western Anatolia, perhaps with a political centre at Purushanda. The Assyrian colonists and traders who were present in Anatolia at this time refer to the local people as nuwaʿum without any differentiation. This term seems to derive from the name of the Luwians, with the change from l/n resulting from the mediation of Hurrian."

Notice Argo Grecians - Non Heraclid Proto Greeks refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
Notice Luwians - Heracleid Proto Albanians - according to my hypothesis.
And finally, for the love of God... Notice Hittites. Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with Hittite? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.




"Hittite period[edit]

The Old Hittite laws from the 17th century BC contain cases relating to the then independent regions of Palā (comment: I suspect R1B Pelasgs, althoug highly unlikely and speculative) and Luwiya. Traders and displaced people seem to have moved from one country to the other on the basis of agreements between Ḫattusa and Luwiya.^[3] It has been argued that theLuwians never formed a single unified Luwian state, but populated a number of polities where they mixed with other population groups. However, a minority opinion holds that in the end they did form a unified force, and brought about the end of Bronze Age civilization by attacking the Hittites and then other areas as the Sea People.
During the Hittite period, the kingdoms of Šeḫa [de] and Arzawa developed in the west, focussed on the Maeander valley.(comment:Check the map I posted before, where does meander run? does it run beneath Skepsis?) In the south was the state of Kizzuwatna, which was inhabited by a mixture of Hurrians and Luwians. The kingdom of Tarḫuntašša developed during the Hittite New Kingdom, in southern Anatolia. The kingdom of Wilusa was located in northwest Anatolia on the site of Troy. Whether any of these kingdoms represented a Luwian state cannot be clearly determined on current evidence and is a matter of controversy in contemporary scholarship."

And also, phonetically how do you pronounce Ὕλλος" in Greek ? I don't even know your script mate and I can read the first word of the Illiad in Ancient Greek whatever that means.

"Mëneaj" do you know what that means? Don't google it now. But it certainly represents my feeling towards you after you flooding this post with tangential unrelated BS to get off topic, while "pretending" to "enrich my names"... Think I am done with this topic.



PS. I even colored the names for you so you don't get confused, each color represents something different.

Edit to add some context::
"The poem's initial word, μῆνιν (mēnin, accusative of μῆνις, mēnis, "wrath, rage, fury"), establishes the Iliad's principal theme: The "Wrath of Achilles".^[33]

Wow. Achilles! Buddy! Stop rekking the Aecheans please.
Nvm,f*ck him too, for what he did to Hector.


Note:I wonder if Peleusellasgian is the same relation Grecian*:Greek.

Grecian are the people Homer refers to as living in Argos, (Achea+Morea), in the Illiad.
Helens are the descendants of Helen and the king of Argos.
Dorians are the people that rekt the Grecians ~900BC, sparing Athens.

Don't believe me? Read for yourself. Homer was a boss.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Very interesting presentation:

https://slideplayer.com/slide/4572029/

They do not even mention "Albanian", but if one follows basic logic the facts lead only one way.
This is not new information from what I understand, I just was not previously aware of it and had doubts.
The presentation above is from 2011. But I guess our propaganda driven states have no interest in disseminating such valuable knowledge.

Yetos is a similar to many acquaintances of mine, albeit of different nationalities, since hate knows no bounds... They grew up learning history in jumps of 2000 Years. I know I did... Jumped from 300 BC to WW1 in our history class... no kidding. and I had to research myself to get anywhere. But contrary to Yetos I am not blind when faced with the facts.

 

[bigsnake49]

Edit: how to delete this post? Let the professionals continue the discussion

What professionals? Where? Where? All I see here is rank speculation to elevate ones modern nation to a grandeur that it does not deserve. Let's face it, most people's ancestors deserve kudos just because they survived. That's all. My ancestors were farmers since probably the Neolithic, never moving more than 10-20 miles away from where their ancestors lived. Thracians never had a written language so no literature, maybe some oral history that was lost. They were supposed to be good with horses and fierce warriors and famed for their strong wine and Dionysian orgies. The findings in present day Bulgaria also point to well developed gold jewelry skills. But really that's it. I cannot point to some world renowned civilization. The same can be said about the descendants of the ancient Dacians, Illyrians, Moesans, etc. Farmers and herders and that's that. Face it and go on. Create a new future civilization you can be proud of because your ancestors, and mine, were just that, small scale farmers and herders. If my more recent ancestors were turkified I would be speaking Turkish and be a muslim. If they were bulgarized I would be speaking Bulgarian. It does not change the fact that basically they were humble folk. I am glad they survived through the Celtic, Roman, Avar, Goth, Bulgar Slav and Turkish invasions and I am here.

 

[Johane Derite]

Further commonalities between Troy and "Illyria" that Achilles reveals:

 

[Ygorcs]

Not really helpful Yetos, in case that was your genuine intention...

"Middle Bronze Age[edit]

Certain evidence of the Luwians begins around 2000 BC, with the presence of personal names and loan words in Old Assyrian Empire documents from the Assyrian colony of Kültepe, dating from between 1950 and 1700 BC (Middle Chronology), which shows that Luwian and Hittite were already two distinct languages at this point. According to most scholars, the Hittites were then settled in upper Kızılırmak and had their economic and political centre at Kaniš-Neša (from which the Hittite language gained its native name, nešili). The Luwians most likely lived in southern and western Anatolia, perhaps with a political centre at Purushanda. The Assyrian colonists and traders who were present in Anatolia at this time refer to the local people as nuwaʿum without any differentiation. This term seems to derive from the name of the Luwians, with the change from l/n resulting from the mediation of Hurrian."

Notice Argo Grecians - Non Heraclid Proto Greeks refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
Notice Luwians - Heracleid Proto Albanians - according to my hypothesis.
And finally, for the love of God... Notice Hittites. Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with Hittite? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.




"Hittite period[edit]

The Old Hittite laws from the 17th century BC contain cases relating to the then independent regions of Palā (comment: I suspect R1B Pelasgs, althoug highly unlikely and speculative) and Luwiya. Traders and displaced people seem to have moved from one country to the other on the basis of agreements between Ḫattusa and Luwiya.^[3] It has been argued that theLuwians never formed a single unified Luwian state, but populated a number of polities where they mixed with other population groups. However, a minority opinion holds that in the end they did form a unified force, and brought about the end of Bronze Age civilization by attacking the Hittites and then other areas as the Sea People.
During the Hittite period, the kingdoms of Šeḫa [de] and Arzawa developed in the west, focussed on the Maeander valley.(comment:Check the map I posted before, where does meander run? does it run beneath Skepsis?) In the south was the state of Kizzuwatna, which was inhabited by a mixture of Hurrians and Luwians. The kingdom of Tarḫuntašša developed during the Hittite New Kingdom, in southern Anatolia. The kingdom of Wilusa was located in northwest Anatolia on the site of Troy. Whether any of these kingdoms represented a Luwian state cannot be clearly determined on current evidence and is a matter of controversy in contemporary scholarship."

And also, phonetically how do you pronounce Ὕλλος" in Greek ? I don't even know your script mate and I can read the first word of the Illiad in Ancient Greek whatever that means.

"Mëneaj" do you know what that means? Don't google it now. But it certainly represents my feeling towards you after you flooding this post with tangential unrelated BS to get off topic, while "pretending" to "enrich my names"... Think I am done with this topic.

PS. I even colored the names for you so you don't get confused, each color represents something different.

What we know from Luwian was clearly related to Hittite linguistically and definitely part of Anatolian IE, very unlike Albanian or other Balkanic IE. What could perhaps be argued is that the late BA was a period of Balkan to Asia Minor immigration, and Dardanians also migrated from there like Phrygians, the firast Greek settlers and perhaps even Armenians. But I doubt the eventual Albanians would come from a back-migration making the reverse path. They might share some ancestors with themm, but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry).

 

[Yetos]

Well
WILL YOU EVER DECIDE?

One says that Illyrians Dardanians and Troyans are connected,

And the other Says that Herakleides (Hercules) were proto-Albanians,

Notice Argo Grecians - Non Heraclid Proto Greeks refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
Notice Luwians - Heracleid Proto Albanians- according to my hypothesis.
And finally, for the love of God... Notice Hittites. Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with Hittite? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.

Will you ever decide?


Ok t
to Derite,
yes there is a Possibility that Troyans and Dardanians might be connected,
Via Myssians,
Herodotos writes that Myssian before Troyan war enter Europe
conguer Thrace and reach Ionian Sea, Means coastal Albania
IN THAT CASE YOU JUST PROVED THAT DARDANIANS WERE ANATOLIANS MYSIANS
AND THEIR FIRST LANGUAGE WAS AN ANATOLIAN IE ONE,
MEANING THAT THE DARDANIANS YOU PROVIDE US SPOKE MYSIAN ANATOLIAN AND NOT ALBANIAN
EXCEPT IF YOU BELIEVE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE CAME FROM ASIA MINOR.




@ ArchetypeOne

I gave you a word, so not confuse, and stop providing this
Illuwanka a Hettit word, but Illu- is Found in many IE, but does it has the same meaning?

but probably you have an epiphotisis, a kind of Pentecoste flaming tongues,

What Argos Greeks? what Herakleides protoAlbanian?
Do you know when Illyrians enter today Albania coming from Noricum?

Notice this
Mycenean World

Proto-Greek spoken

Greek and Brygian and Latin come from the same split of IE
Illyrian come from Celtic family with Germanic influence, and enter with the move of Brygians.

the Argos Greeks you say
the Luwian-Herakleides protoAlbanians
and the rest
Sory I can not understand what you want to share with us, etrified:


BTW

the time is not as you provide,
Myceneans were already in Greece when Hettites enter minor Asia,
Myceneans are found from 2900 BC in Greece
and generally we know they stabilize language and culture around 2000 BC

Hettites came around 2000 BC to East parts of modern Turkey

so that is wrong

You have Luwians, and then you have Hittites, and then you have Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks.

,


Now about Brygian and Luwian/Lydian NO THERE IS NO CONNECTION except both IE,

Luwian/Lydian is ancient Anatolian Family IE
Brygian Greek (and Latin?) are another family, non Anatolian


The First way to make connection among Troy and Dardanians
is to Prove that Dardanians spoke a S Caucasian language, an Anatolian one,
meaning, if you believe that today Albanians of Kossovo are linguistically the same, Albanian is Anatolian so S Caucasian language.

The Other way to make connection among Troy and Dardanians
is to prove that European IE and especially proto-Thracian, since Illyrian came after Brygians,
but lets accept even Illyrian, a Celto-germanic language, enter to minor Asia, to Troy

prove one of the 2 above,
prove not claim,



NOTICE,

before Troyan war all devastations and IE population movement were from East to West, from Asia to Europe.
Th 1rst colonization is the first move from Europe to Asia
either by Greeks Aeoleis, either by Thracians Bithynoi etc


This is the 1rst IE migration from Europe to Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Greek_migrations

ABOUT SAMETIME MOVED THE THRACIANS TO BITHYNIA AND THE BRYGIANS TO PHRYGIA,
WHO ENTER FIRST? GREEKS OR THRACIANS, I REALLY DO NOT CARE NOW

 

[Archetype0ne]

What we know from Luwian was clearly related to Hittite linguistically and definitely part of Anatolian IE, very unlike Albanian or other Balkanic IE. What could perhaps be argued is that the late BA was a period of Balkan to Asia Minor immigration, and Dardanians also migrated from there like Phrygians, the firast Greek settlers and perhaps even Armenians. But I doubt the eventual Albanians would come from a back-migration making the reverse path. They might share some ancestors with themm, but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry).

First of all, no such thing as Albanians at the time, do not put word in my mouth.
Second of all provide me with a source that Luwian has no connection to proto-Balkanic languages. I have provided above a linguistic paper explicitly stating Luwian was a different language based on analysis to all other Hatti and Hittite languages in the area. That they were related, that is most definitively the case, where did I state otherwise? Them being distinct is another matter... ie: Latin and Italian are related, but they sure as hell ain't the same language... Btw all IE is related, and IIRC Hittite is considered IE too...

"They might share some ancestors with them," - That's exactly what I am saying? "but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry)." Give me proof. Or at least use an argument to falsify my hypothesis. Oh, and do you not use sources too?

Also, "Anatolian" Indo-European is a signifier of geography and location... Luwian is Anatolian Indo European, BY DEFINITION. What I am raising, as an hypothesis, is that Luwian might be related to proto-Balkanic languages (not Albanian as you would twist my words...) ie: Thracian, along with Illyrian, if there ever was such a language. I highly doubt it. Sounds just like another geographic signifier like Berber/Barbarians etc...

Finally, I did not rule out earlier migration, or back migration. As Deride thankfully pointed out with sources such migration of the Dardans, albeit West to East is attested. I only pointed out, that following the sack of Troy and the Sea Peoples, a migration of local population made its way into the Balkans as refugees, along with the Dardans, returning to their mines westward.



As for my personal belief, R1B was the local Balkan Pellasg population, * at the time of the J2B2 and E-V13 expansion post 1300BC. Notice... I am not ruling out branches of E-V13 J2B2 predating such influx through older branches mainland. In fact I am inclined to believe, that E-V13 and J2B2 were making their way across the Balkans along what would become the Western European coast of Rome through Italy, Spain, and even the South of England, up to as early as 2500BC.

Anyways,

PS: Regio.Dominus - Does it sound Latin to you? Latin? In >1000BC? In Western Anatolia? I don't know... Ill have to study some linguistics it seems.

 

[Yetos]

As for my personal belief, R1B was the local Balkan Pellasg population, * at the time of the J2B2 and E-V13 expansion post 1300BC. Notice... I am not ruling out branches of E-V13 J2B2 predating such influx through older branches mainland. In fact I am inclined to believe, that E-V13 and J2B2 were making their way across the Balkans along what would become the Western European coast of Rome through Italy, Spain, and even the South of England, up to as early as 2500BC.

what?

how come? any genetical source?
or just a believe?

The same Believe I had too,
I believed E-V13 came around 2000 BC,
But seems I was wrong,

 

[Ygorcs]

First of all, no such thing as Albanians at the time, do not put word in my mouth.
Second of all provide me with a source that Luwian has no connection to proto-Balkanic languages. I have provided above a linguistic paper explicitly stating Luwian was a different language based on analysis to all other Hatti and Hittite languages in the area. That they were related, that is most definitively the case, where did I state otherwise? Them being distinct is another matter... ie: Latin and Italian are related, but they sure as hell ain't the same language... Btw all IE is related, and IIRC Hittite is considered IE too....

You mistook what I said: I said quite plainly that Luwian was like Hittite an Anatolian IE language, and by definition it was not particularly more related to any Paleo-Balkanic IE language, since Anatolian was certainly a branch of its own that split before any other IE subfamily and was therefore less related to any other IE language than any other two Late PIE-derived languages between themselves. In other words, Albanian and other Paleo-Balkanic attested languages weren't any closer to the likes of Luwian than to other groups like Italic, Celtic or Germanic. The relationship exists, but is traced back to PIE times, i.e. it's irrelevant for the issue at stake in this thread. Luwian not being Hittite does not mean that it belonged to a different branch nor that it was more related to other non-Anatolian IEs than Hittite was (though it could have been more influenced by them, but that's an entirely different matter, one of language strata, not linguistic origin).

"Anatolian" is definitely not a geographical term only, it's a name that refers to a group of related languages that clearly formed a common node in the phylogenetic tree of PIE-derived languages. Spanish is not closer to German just because it is not the same as another Romance language like Italian or French. That reasoning is just misguided and based on some basic mistakes of linguistics (e.g. the idea that "Anatolian IE" is just a geographical label indicating location, not a valid language subfamily identified by linguistic methodology).

As for Albanians not deriving a decisive part of their ancestry and especiall of their ethnic identity from Luwians, that can be demonstrated from the simple fact that their language is definitely unrelated to Luwian, and from the fact that even if Dardanians were part of the alliances that made Troy they were supposed, archaeologically and linguistically, to have come from the Balkans into Anatolia, not the other way around, and like Brygians and Greeks still existed after part of them migrated to Asia Minor the same thing certainly happened with Dardanians: some migrated, some stayed put.

 

[Archetype0ne]

You mistook what I said: I said quite plainly that Luwian was like Hittite an Anatolian IE language, and by definition it was not particularly more related to any Paleo-Balkanic IE language, since Anatolian was certainly a branch of its own that split before any other IE subfamily and was therefore less related to any other IE language than any other two Late PIE-derived languages between themselves. In other words, Albanian and other Paleo-Balkanic attested languages weren't any closer to the likes of Luwian than to other groups like Italic, Celtic or Germanic. The relationship exists, but is traced back to PIE times, i.e. it's irrelevant for the issue at stake in this thread. Luwian not being Hittite does not mean that it belonged to a different branch nor that it was more related to other non-Anatolian IEs than Hittite was (though it could have been more influenced by them, but that's an entirely different matter, one of language strata, not linguistic origin).

"Anatolian" is definitely not a geographical term only, it's a name that refers to a group of related languages that clearly formed a common node in the phylogenetic tree of PIE-derived languages. Spanish is not closer to German just because it is not the same as another Romance language like Italian or French. That reasoning is just misguided and based on some basic mistakes of linguistics (e.g. the idea that "Anatolian IE" is just a geographical label indicating location, not a valid language subfamily identified by linguistic methodology).

As for Albanians not deriving a decisive part of their ancestry and especiall of their ethnic identity from Luwians, that can be demonstrated from the simple fact that their language is definitely unrelated to Luwian ​(Source for this would be greatly appreciated), and from the fact that even if Dardanians were part of the alliances that made Troy they were supposed, archaeologically and linguistically, to have come from the Balkans into Anatolia, not the other way around, and like Brygians and Greeks still existed after part of them migrated to Asia Minor the same thing certainly happened with Dardanians: some migrated, some stayed put.

I will not comment on your first two paragraphs, as I believe we have a disagreement on a conceptual level. Anatolian implies region. IE implies language. Anatolian IE, implies the IE languages spoken in Anatolia.

You have the burden to falsify the hypothesis, and not simply state its false by not providing any facts or mutually exclusive counterpoints.
1. Provide proof or counterexample for your statement that: there is no cultural (identity) continuum between, what late classical, proto-Greek writers would consider Illyrians (in the context of Dardania, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Albania Proper.) In the future I shall attempt research connecting culture, hierarchy structure, as well as symbols, and will post in this thread my findings.
2. Provide proof or counterexample for your statement that: there was no ethnic continuum (ie: gene glow connection, whichever way) during 2000-1000BC between Western Anatolia and Balkans, including but not limited to, proto-Italic, proto-Greek, proto-Albanian, as well, if I might dare Triballi and Illyri Propi Dicti. In this regard I do not have to do any further research, I believe the gene pool in the Balkans, along with the historical context speaks for itself.

@Yetos

That is just my belief, don't have concrete evidence as of yet. However the die has been cast, and if we get our hands and test more ancient DNA samples, that data alone will be enough to prove or disprove my hypothesis.



=============================================

Edit for clarity:
I am not implying there is strong evidence for my hypothesis. I am implying there is circumstantial evidence. What should be stressed is, that so far there is no definite proof to the contrary, nor reason to believe so, outside of historical dogma and status quo, and as such, the contrary should not dully be assumed factual. Note: After obtaining the phonetic key, I can understand 3-4/6 personal pronouns from Luwian based on Current Albanian, and what is really peculiar is that they have Dare - To Give - Similar to Italian Dare - Albanian Dhash - Russian - Serbo - Croatian - Davav - Davaj. As well as they have a verb ip-ye, but since its hieroglyphic Luwian, it could also be the case that its reading would have yielded ye-ip, also meaning to give, Current Albanian JEP (to give). (What a coincidence, amIrite?) Albanian: Une (ty) ta jap. I give you. (with you implied within the verb, Ai (mua) ma dha . He gave me (with me implied withing the verb).

Now what is interesting is that it is the same action, in today IE , whether you give someone, or someone gives you. Its "give". But in Luwian it seems, based on what I have read, that was not the case. Meaning, depending if giving, or having gotten something, the very verb is different. Usually, the pronouns (mua) /(ty); (to me) /(to you) are implied within the verb with a suffix, but certain verbs completely change their root. To give.... seems to be one of them, in essence when implying the context weather you give, recieve(?).Someone help me with the rigorousness of the logic here, since I might be completely off.

Further note on above point. Considering the societies in Bronze Age Anatolia were miners of gold out of Electroneum from the rivers, as well as traders, this could explain their base in Dardania. Such linages of E-V13 people could be the rumored E-V13: Rhaetian in the Austrian Alps, as well as Goth in Daskalogen (this is another topic that deserves its own thread) , as well as Corwnwall in England, and Minoan Crete...

Anyone know what Ilium, Turkey; Tirol, Austria; Daskalogen, Sweeden; Cornwall, England; and Minoan Crete have in common? Hmm... Pb... Au... Ag and that sort of thing. Not sure how Galicia, Spain fits here, since I am not aware about their metal riches but it is worth exploring.

Caravans/ships connecting the abovementioned ancient world could have existed, based on newly adopted technologies such as farming, smithing, herding in a menlting pot on the Crescent ~>4000 Years ago. And with the fall of the system around 3.3k BP, such lines might have vanished for hundreds of years, creating local pools of genetically peculiar population, that were later integrated in other societies. Would explain E-V13 through the whole EU for one. Not sure what else it could explain.

Edit 5: Collapsed points 3 and 4 into 1.

tarāwi(ya)- 'hand over, deliver'Pret3Sg ta-ra-a-u-i-it-ta: 54 ii 36 (+ pari).Imv3Sg da-ra-u-id-du: 45 ii 25.da-ra-ú-id-du: 45 ii 26e.[da]-ra-u-i-id-du: 48 ii 21.

Ta dha (AL) He gave you (EN) : with dha being a past perfect (?,haven't done grammar in 10 years) for for the verb gave, with the form of its root implying the pronouns (AL:ty) (EN:to you). In essence Ai ty ta dha. He to you gave. However, we know in Luwian the verb goes first, meaning first the action and then object, with subject implied on the verb through the root, or suffix. In essence rendering "He to you gave" to something akin to " Gave/Giveth*** (with the variant(although completely different root) in the verb implying the pronoun to you, subject). In essence, modern Albanian version based on that word order Ta-dha(subject relation signifier as prefix + verb root). I would not be surprised if we even find hieroglyphs with versions of same meaning, to give, but with the form Dha-ti Dha-ty. Meaning, with the subject relation signifier as a suffix instead of as a prefix. Slavic:Ti Davav(dadov?) / Davav(dadov)-ti. Italian: Ti o datto / Ho datto-a-te.

Another interesting, and intriguing speculation: If anyone searches for a hieroglyph of a Horned Cow (or are those ears LMAO)... It has been deciphered using bi-lingual inscriptions between Luwian (proto-Pyrgian) and Phoenician that phonetically it sounds like Ka, Kah. Does it look peculiar just to me?

Frequency Source: https://translate.google.com/?um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#sq/en/ka
there are	ka
there is	ka
Noun
ox	dem, ka, buall
bullock	ka
neat	dem, lopë, ka

For my fellow Albanophones in this forum with knowledge of linguistics, if anyone wants to contribute to the topic here are some research materials:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~jasanoff/pdf/Luvian case.pdf
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23317504?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf PG 221 Tarawi example given above.
https://www.academia.edu/12302125/Hittite_language_is_a_dialect_of_the_Pelasgian_Albanian_language - Nevermind this guys' misleading, agenda driven title, mind his provided lexicon.

And finally where I first noticed I could recognize Luwian pronouns, and verbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc 19:47 When my lightbulb lit. I think it helped me the fact that I know both Gheg and Tosk strains of Albanian, since JEP (TOSK) EIP / EJPI (Gheg).

Edit4. Also of interest: C(k)apere - Luwian, Anatolian IE: To take. Modern Italian: Capisco - I understand/To Grasp. Modern Albanian: Kap - Grab, Grasp.
Guess what the hieroglyph looks like? Like an extended hand.... 26:15 In the video provided above, since some people like to believe their eyes and academic sources. Those I provide... unlike the above naysayers.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Luvi_CAPERE2.jpg
[h=1]etermination in the Anatolian Hieroglyphic Script of the Empire and Transitional Period[/h]
Dr. Annick Payne

Published Online: 2017-12-01 | DOI: https://doi.org/10.1515/aofo-2017-0019

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/aofo.2017.44.issue-2/aofo-2017-0019/graphic/aofo-2017-0019_59.jpg


Language ain't about sounds... or letters, or hieroglyphs, or pictograms, or words. Language is a function of meaning, only broken into the above-mentioned "human constructs" out of necessity and progeny.

==================================================================================================

PS: Infamy among the craven, only adds to my self worth and honor. So keep downvoting out of spite and envy.

Yet I call unto you, to step out of ignorance, and acknowledge what is in front of your face.
Are you going to deny light ad memento mori too? I doubt it...

 

[Archetype0ne]

"*taræuntiti(ya)- (kind of bread)Only in Hitt. GSg taræuntitiyaš at XII 16 i 16*; XX 12,3*.8. Asper Starke, StBoT 31.186f, -iya- adj. < *taræuntit-, but lattermay be directly < taræunt-, not *taræunti(ya)-." pg 212

Asking my fellow Albos what Tërhan means for the Gegs, or Tranana means for the Tosks?

This Map makes so much sense according to my theory. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Centum_Satem_map.png

========================================================
"āppa 'back; again' (preverb)a-ap-pa: 35,4; 39 iii 8; 48 iii 12*; 54 ii 12.39*.iii 6.23.38; 65 iii14; 95,9; IX 31 ii 25; KBo XXIX 6 Vo 15.ap-pa(?): KBo IV 11,51;
VIII 17,2. " --pg 20.

Gegnisht - Oppet, Apet. alternative per prape, perseri ne Toskerisht?
========================================================
"āra/i- 'time'ASg a-ri-in: 133 ii 29; 138,2e.a-a-ri-in: 15 ii(!) 4; KBo IX 141 iv 14.D-LSg a-a-ri-i: KBo IX 141 i 15.AbI a-a-ra-ti: KBo IX 143 iii(!) 14.a-ra-a-ti: 16 i 12; 43 ii 39*.Morpurgo-Davies, Gs Cowgill 21831. The incomplete exx. at 8i 9, 36,7, and 68,6 may belong here or to the verb ariya-." --pg 24.



Ora? Hour? Mythological fairies dealing with time. Arrija? Mberrija? Arrive?
========================================================
"A)æūppa- '?'N-ASg æu-u-up-pa-an-za: KBo XXIX 56,8.D-LSg æu-u-up-pí: XXV 39 iv 14.GenAdjN-ASgNt æu-u-up-pa-aš-ša-an: 88 iii 3*; 89,6*.Grammatical analysis of all three forms and combination intoone paradigm by no means certain! Cf. also perh. 133 iv13*." --pg 73.


E, u hupa asaj ane.

A e houpi?

A u pa Anza? - Might be name.

Edited to provide note: It seems instead of having punctuation marks, Luwians might have used A, E at the beginning of sentences to imply the intention of the sentence, ie: weather a question, or a statement.
If my above conjecture has any basis on reality, we would expect "O!", to potentially imply orders or make a call, in Albanian (Kallzore). Further research is needed... yet the avenue of speculation could prove fruitful.
=============================================================================
https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf

CUNEIFORM LUVIAN LEXICON H. CRAIG MELCHERT 2001

 

[Yetos]

I will not comment on your first two paragraphs, as I believe we have a disagreement on a conceptual level. Anatolian implies region. IE implies language. Anatolian IE, implies the IE languages spoken in Anatolia.

Archetype

Plz Man

Anatolian is a Family of IE languages,

IS A FAMILY OF LANGUAGES

Luwian from Hettit distance
might be same as Dutch from Deutsch or Scands or Gothic
or as a S Slavic language from Polish or Czech or Slovak,
for example how much is Serbian or Croatian from Polish or Slovakian?
the max distance is S Slavic from Russian or Lithuanian
that is the distance among Luwian with Hettite

To Understand
Luwian is not hettite
BUT
Luwian is a daughter of Anatolian PIE
Same Hettite
we can say that both are a kind of Anatolian PIE dialect
before they evolute

Notice
today Dutch is not Deutsch neither Austrian
BUT THEY ALL ONCE SPRUNG FROM PROTO_GERMANIC LANGUAGES.


for you the link bellow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

IT SAYS
''The Anatolian languages are an extinctfamily of Indo-European languages that were spoken in Asia Minor (ancient Anatolia), the best attested of them being the Hittite language.''
'how do you connect Albanian a vivid and spoken language with the extinct ones'
or do you believe that Albanian is connected with Hettite?
since you connect it with Luwian, and Luwian is same family with Hettite,




PART 2

ALBANIAN LANGUAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRYGIAN GREEK AND CELTIC LANGUAGES.
UNDERSTAND THAT. IS a LANGUAGE OF ITS OWN.

PIE *'g
Greek g
Brygian g
Celtic g
Albanian ð, d

PIE *g^w
Brygian b
Greek b d
Albanian g, z

PIE *g^wh
Brygian g
Greek kh
Albanian g

 

[Archetype0ne]

Whatever bro... When you learn Albanian come and we can have a coffee. You do not speak my language, literally, nor figuratively.

 

[Yetos]

Whatever bro... When you learn Albanian come and we can have a coffee. You do not speak my language, literally, nor figuratively.

Archetype

Look at this

PART 2

ALBANIAN LANGUAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRYGIAN GREEK AND CELTIC LANGUAGES.
UNDERSTAND THAT. IS a LANGUAGE OF ITS OWN.

PIE *'g
Greek g
Brygian g
Celtic g
Albanian ð, d

PIE *g^w
Brygian b
Greek b d
Albanian g, z

PIE *g^wh
Brygian g
Greek kh
Albanian g


BUT
ALBANIAN
GREEK
BRYGIAN
etc

THEY ARE IE,
so words with no aspirations, No changing
ARE JUST THE SAME


notice this

the word is Door in English
from PIE d^hwer

Albanian Dera Dere keep the D
Netherlands Duer
ProtoGermanic Durz
PErsian Dar
Lithuanian Durys
All keep the D

But Greek Θυρα !!!! no D
But Latin Foris !!!!! no D

But All is IE
but languages different evolution


As for the coffee
thank you man for invitation
that would be wonderfull


the most easy to read is Grimm's law,
how PIE evolute to proto-Germanic,
Understanding that I am sure you will find on how your language evolute from PIE.
and believe me you will feel great, and refreshed, and releafed,
cause in Linguistic is easy to make mistakes.
I my shelf, I am used to catch my shelf inside a linguistic trap,
these laws will help,

for example why all Germanic have F for word foot or fart etc
but all others have P
Greek Pous-Podos
Latin Pes
Albanian shPute
Hettite Pata

that observation is also a linguistic Law, called Grimm's
not of my own.

thank you if you read my post