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Thread: Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

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    5 out of 8 members found this post helpful.

    Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )



    Very interesting, had a lot of stuff I never knew about before in this video.


    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    6 out of 11 members found this post helpful.
    Let me guess, they were Albanians?

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    bzzzzzzzzzz

    wrong answer,
    Troyans were Illyrians
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    That's so interesting considering how I myself was very harshly scolded by certain members here only a few weeks ago for basically positing that I don't think it's as of yet implausible (and therefore this should be further investigated) that the specific Illyrian dialect (not the people who spoke it necessarily, since languages can diffuse with minor genetic flow) that would give rise to modern Albanian (or at least influenced its dialectal development a lot) could hypothetically have originated roughly in the region between Dardania, southern Moesia Superior and northern Paeonia, in and around modern Kosovo, where there are evidences of "Albanoid" changes in placenames and Albanian-like etymology for toponyms. People thought I was somehow "stealing the land from the Albanians", saying complete nonsense or whatever. But then this apparently "politically acceptable" video comes and claims precisely that Albanians derive from Dardanians, that the "core" Dardanians came originally from precisely that region near Naisssus/Nish, and that by the time of Bardylis extended their political/cultural dominance over as deep south as Epirus.

    I fail to see what's the big difference, perhaps except for the fact the video's hypothesis would've taken place some centuries earlier than I thought. Or maybe, who knows, people really think that a completely uniform dialect was spoken in lands 400-450km apart from each other for many centuries without ever diverging into different versions of the proto-language, so that apparently discussing the origins of a specific modern language in an ancient dialect continuum is totally useless.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's so interesting considering how I myself was very harshly scolded by certain members here only a few weeks ago for basically positing that I don't think it's as of yet implausible (and therefore this should be further investigated) that the specific Illyrian dialect (not the people who spoke it necessarily, since languages can diffuse with minor genetic flow) that would give rise to modern Albanian (or at least influenced its dialectal development a lot) could hypothetically have originated roughly in the region between Dardania, southern Moesia Superior and northern Paeonia, in and around modern Kosovo, where there are evidences of "Albanoid" changes in placenames and Albanian-like etymology for toponyms. People thought I was somehow "stealing the land from the Albanians", saying complete nonsense or whatever. But then this apparently "politically acceptable" video comes and claims precisely that Albanians derive from Dardanians, that the "core" Dardanians came originally from precisely that region near Naisssus/Nish, and that by the time of Bardylis extended their political/cultural dominance over as deep south as Epirus.

    I fail to see what's the big difference, perhaps except for the fact the video's hypothesis would've taken place some centuries earlier than I thought. Or maybe, who knows, people really think that a completely uniform dialect was spoken in lands 400-450km apart from each other for many centuries without ever diverging into different versions of the proto-language, so that apparently discussing the origins of a specific modern language in an ancient dialect continuum is totally useless.
    The issue, was with claiming a medieval entry of Albanian into the more southern territories, which again, doesn't make sense when we consider the 7th century bc laconian folk vocabulary having albanian word loans.

    Lazaridis said Albanian seems to have translocated southwards in medieval times like vlach and slav languages.

    This was the crux of my disagreement, which I still stand by. Dardania AND Epirus had Albanian speakers, toponyms like Dimallum (related to Albanian "Mal" (mountain) and stuff like that has convinced me of that. This inclusion of Epirus is a big difference for me, if its not for you i wont hold it against you, but i will disagree and ask for your evidence against it.

    My objections to Matzinger were based on his entire argument being built around negative evidence i.e. lack of toponym continuity is his main argument, despite being very weak argument his way around since we know how turbulent balkan history is, whereas the presence of even one toponym having continuity is on the obverse a much stronger argument since its possible to have albanian speakers not in power (i.e. kosovo, serbian was official language, official maps using serbophone toponyms, etc) while living there, whereas having one toponym show continuity necessitates Albanian speakers there.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    for example, a screenshot from the vid:




    Since we don't know of an Albanian empire, the only way its feasible that this many disparate far off toponyms have albanian phonological
    continous development is if there were also albanian speakers at least in minority in between them. So while many toponyms don't have continuity as the albanian control over them was disrupted enough times by ottomans, slavs, etc, there are enough to say that there were albanians in the south before the medival migrations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    for example, a screenshot from the vid:

    Since we don't know of an Albanian empire, the only way its feasible that this many disparate far off toponyms have albanian phonological
    continous development is if there were also albanian speakers at least in minority in between them. So while many toponyms don't have continuity as the albanian control over them was disrupted enough times by ottomans, slavs, etc, there are enough to say that there were albanians in the south before the medival migrations
    I have been telling these albanians for 2 years , that your ancient balkan roots are dardanian ............but you guys kept argueing about your nations propoganda that your where brainwashed in that your illyrian
    I also said that ancient historians state epirotes are illyrians and that is the confusing aspect on why you think differntly ...........greeks in the ancient times despised of Epirotes and now want to ensure that they are Greek..........
    I also said Illyrians began in the eastern alps in the bronze-age and that is why we have halstatt culture as a celtic-illyrian mix
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Another great video about Trojan War and Dardanians


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    2 out of 6 members found this post helpful.
    So Dardanians (Albanians) were Trojans and in turn mythical founders of ancient Rome?

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    How they explain the chronology of the few ancient Greek borrowings at which time were borrowed?
    From what i have read can not be established the time when were borrowed.
    Would like to see linguist explanation.Thanks

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    How they explain the chronology of the few ancient Greek borrowings at which time were borrowed?
    From what i have read can not be established the time when were borrowed.
    Would like to see linguist explanation.Thanks
    Krzyztof Witzcak found Albanian words in Alcmans poetry. Since Alcman lived around 7th century BC, and his poetry was using lots of Laconian folk vocabulary, this means a
    west greek doric contact zone between albanian and greek is likely where they would have picked it up. Epirus is the most suitable candidate.

    Alcman (7th century BC) was an Ancient Greek choral lyric poet from Sparta

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Time to learn little more history.

    Battle of Eri-gonoi



    only Bardylis does not mean 'white star'
    but something else
    explained well if Illyrian homeland was Noricum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have been telling these albanians for 2 years , that your ancient balkan roots are dardanian ............but you guys kept argueing about your nations propoganda that your where brainwashed in that your illyrian
    I also said that ancient historians state epirotes are illyrians and that is the confusing aspect on why you think differntly ...........greeks in the ancient times despised of Epirotes and now want to ensure that they are Greek..........
    I also said Illyrians began in the eastern alps in the bronze-age and that is why we have halstatt culture as a celtic-illyrian mix
    Well, according to Greek mythology, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.

    Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes

    Sons

    Encheleus of the Enchelaeae
    Autarieus of the Autariates
    Dardanus of the Dardani
    Maedus
    Taulas of the Taulantii
    Perrhaebus of the Perrhaebi

    Daughters

    Partho of the Partheni
    Daortho of Daors
    Dassaro of the Dassaretae

    Grandsons

    Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians

    GreatGrandsons

    Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci

    So, where is the difference between Illyrians and Dardanians according to you ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leutrim View Post
    Well, according to Greek mythology, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.

    Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes

    Sons

    Encheleus of the Enchelaeae
    Autarieus of the Autariates
    Dardanus of the Dardani
    Maedus
    Taulas of the Taulantii
    Perrhaebus of the Perrhaebi

    Daughters

    Partho of the Partheni
    Daortho of Daors
    Dassaro of the Dassaretae

    Grandsons

    Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians

    GreatGrandsons

    Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci

    So, where is the difference between Illyrians and Dardanians according to you ?
    I think that, as already seemed likely from a "linguistic and historic common sense" point of view, if the myths have a grain of truth then it could be established that "Illyrians" did not form a homogeneous ethnicity and language community, they were rather more like "the Latins" or "the Slavs" nowadays, an umbrella-term for several different populations that speak languages that are perceived as much more related between themselves than to other neighboring peoples' languages. People did not manage to expand so much from Croatia to Epirus and elsewhere and still retain the homogeneity of their language preventing any linguistic divergence, especially in the Antiquity without modern means of transport and communication, let alone a political centralization and strong state institutions. That could only happen if we assumed that Illyrians were very recently settled in the Balkans by the time the region was conquered by the Romans... but that doesn't seem likely at all.

    My main quibble with Johane Derite's assumption that as early as the 7th century B.C. Epirus was already "Albanian-speaking", but Dardania was also probably "Albanian-speaking" according to him, is exactly that I find it highly unlikely that such a far-reaching language would've remained that homogeneous by the time of the Roman Empire. Granted, some distinctively "Albanoid" sound rules (phontic changes) may have spread like fire through a large area, as areal features may encompass even different language families, but that is totally different from stating that the language was exactly the same in all that region from the northernmost to the southernmost point, and that the Modrn Albanian dialects derive seamlessly from all of that speech community from Dardania to Epirus indistinctly. For instance, we know that Greek was spoken in a much wider area, but Modern Greek in fact does not come from all those dialects, it's clearly a derivation of koiné Byzantine Greek which in turn came from Attic Greek. The other ancient dialects died out, they either shifted to or re-converged significantly to Koiné Greek, except maybe for Tsakonian, which may come from Doric Greek. A similar thing must've happened in the Albanian-speaking territory, otherwise after more than 2700 years you'd certainly expect an even much wider linguistic diversity, more than in the Germanic languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The issue, was with claiming a medieval entry of Albanian into the more southern territories, which again, doesn't make sense when we consider the 7th century bc laconian folk vocabulary having albanian word loans.

    Lazaridis said Albanian seems to have translocated southwards in medieval times like vlach and slav languages.

    This was the crux of my disagreement, which I still stand by. Dardania AND Epirus had Albanian speakers, toponyms like Dimallum (related to Albanian "Mal" (mountain) and stuff like that has convinced me of that. This inclusion of Epirus is a big difference for me, if its not for you i wont hold it against you, but i will disagree and ask for your evidence against it.

    My objections to Matzinger were based on his entire argument being built around negative evidence i.e. lack of toponym continuity is his main argument, despite being very weak argument his way around since we know how turbulent balkan history is, whereas the presence of even one toponym having continuity is on the obverse a much stronger argument since its possible to have albanian speakers not in power (i.e. kosovo, serbian was official language, official maps using serbophone toponyms, etc) while living there, whereas having one toponym show continuity necessitates Albanian speakers there.
    But that was never my claim. I was thinking more of the Roman eraand of the root of the proto-language, not the Illyrian/Albanoid speakers as a whole.

    I gather that by "Albanian loanwords" what can really be said is that, if Albanian is indeed Illyrian, then some Illyrian dialect/language was spoken as south as Epirus and as north as Dardania (and of course even more to its northwest). But I'm not as sure as you that that meant the direct ancestor of Modern Albanian dialects was spoken indistinctly in both Dardania and Epirus as early as the 7th century B.C, somehow preventing further linguistic divergence for some 2600 years in the absence of any common strong state that could've forced a relative homogeneization of the language (but even in that case that would certainly have meant the imposition of one specific dialect of that linguistic area over the other dialects, shifting to a common language based on one among many dialects).

    In my opinion, the present state of the Albanian language points out to a split from Proto-Albanian (the last common ancestor of all modern dialects) not as early as the Classical Antiquity, but in the Late Antiquity, roughly the Late Roman Empire. That would've necessitated many centuries since the 7th century B.C. (and we can't even assume that the Illyrian language was that recent in Dardania and Epirus that it wouldn't have started to split already by then). Now, of course part of the original Albanoid-speaking community would've become Romanized, and others would've moved away from the Romanization to others more "untainted" lands, so I presume that must've had linguistic implications, and one or a close set of similar dialects must've prevailed over the others. What I find really hard, from basic common sense, is that the modern language derives seamlessly from a language spoken homogeneously and indistinctly from Dardania to Epirus (or even elsewhere) as early as ~600 B.C., when you yourself pointed out to me that some linguists date the start of the split of modern Albanian dialects to 300 A.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Time to learn little more history.
    Battle of Eri-gonoi

    only Bardylis does not mean 'white star'
    but something else
    explained well if Illyrian homeland was Noricum.
    this is the first list ( A to E ) of Illyrian names in noricum ( I have other lists as well )

    .
    Where did you see Bardylis ?

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    About the name Bardylis,don't know exactly when Albanian switched PIE ǵ- to dh,but in proto-Albanian would have sounded more like "bardza" not "bardhe" from bʰrh₁ǵ- compare English "bright".So i think that is another thing what should be explained by linguist when comparing ancient names to modern languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    About the name Bardylis,don't know exactly when Albanian switched PIE ǵ- to dh,but in proto-Albanian would have sounded more like "bardza" not "bardhe" from bʰrh₁ǵ- compare English "bright".So i think that is another thing what should be explained by linguist when comparing ancient names to modern languages.
    I'm trying to understand what you wrote. Can you provide some more info that is easy to understand for people who can't read those symbols?

    For example, today Bardhe is pronounced B-A-R-DH (E is almost silent)
    B - Bob
    A is similar to - "pluck" or "up" but more similar to Boston accent - "father"
    R - crazy, Ron
    DH is like the first sound of "the" or "there"

    Could you explain in a similar way how you think BARDH was pronounced in proto-Albanian?
    And could you provide some evidence for that opinion? Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I'm trying to understand what you wrote. Can you provide some more info that is easy to understand for people who can't read those symbols?

    For example, today Bardhe is pronounced B-A-R-DH (E is almost silent)
    B - Bob
    A is similar to - "pluck" or "up" but more similar to Boston accent - "father"
    R - crazy, Ron
    DH is like the first sound of "the" or "there"

    Could you explain in a similar way how you think BARDH was pronounced in proto-Albanian?
    And could you provide some evidence for that opinion? Thank you!
    For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
    In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
    From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I'm trying to understand what you wrote. Can you provide some more info that is easy to understand for people who can't read those symbols?

    For example, today Bardhe is pronounced B-A-R-DH (E is almost silent)
    B - Bob
    A is similar to - "pluck" or "up" but more similar to Boston accent - "father"
    R - crazy, Ron
    DH is like the first sound of "the" or "there"

    Could you explain in a similar way how you think BARDH was pronounced in proto-Albanian?
    And could you provide some evidence for that opinion? Thank you!
    Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree.

    At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:

    "Bardus"
    "Skenobardus"
    "Bardibalus"

    We also have the messapic examples:

    "Barzides"
    "Barzidihi"

    Bardhok was a common folk name before the Albanian state formed whereas it is more rare now. Bardh is still a very common name though

  21. #21
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
    In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
    From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".
    It all depends in the chronology. Its obvious these "Bard-" names in illyrian and messapian are related. There is also the messapic city "bardulos" which linguists belive means "grey". Obviously a cognate.

    Since we have literal documented use of this word, the actual source should take primacy, and not the speculated transitional phoneme which is the opinion of a linguist or two.

    Its just all against occams razor

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Let me guess, they were Albanians?
    The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.

    Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians.

    Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.

    Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians.

    Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.
    I disagree, but I wasn't thinking about those Dardanians when I made that comment.

    The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
    In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
    From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".
    Thank you. I don't know a lot about etymology, but I see you are saying that PIE "g" became "dh".

    For this to mean that the "Bardh" of today was "Barg" at 400 BC, two scenarios have to be excluded. First, assuming your "g">"dh" argument is true, it might be that the Dardanians had already been through that process. Keep in mind that Bardylis lived around 1500-1700 years before documented modern Albanian "dh" and around 3000 years after the possible PIE "g".

    Second, it could be that some "dh" came from "g" but some other "dh" came from "d" or something else. So it has to be that all modern "dh" came from "g" and nothing else.

    Do you have any argument to exclude these two possibilities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree.

    At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:

    "Bardus"
    "Skenobardus"
    "Bardibalus"

    We also have the messapic examples:

    "Barzides"
    "Barzidihi"

    Bardhok was a common folk name before the Albanian state formed whereas it is more rare now. Bardh is still a very common name though
    It is Skenobarbus i think so,but some linguists already suggested see Enlglish "beard",proto germanic bardaz.
    ΙΕ *bhardheh = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)

    I wouldn't be surprise if some of the other names with "bard" have similar root.

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