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Thread: Do Hallstat Celts have some role in the formation of West Germanic ethnicities?

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    An interesting article from Washington Post suggests Hallstat Celts left a strong genetic ancestry in Bavaria and Austria:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f44c7dd36ccc

    Bavaria and West Austria people,as genetics seems more similar to some Old Kelts from Ireland, than SE English people:

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    An interesting article from Washington Post suggests Hallstat Celts left a strong genetic ancestry in Bavaria and Austria:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f44c7dd36ccc

    Bavaria and West Austria people,as genetics seems more similar to some Old Kelts from Ireland, than SE English people:
    Completely missed the point of the article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Completely missed the point of the article.
    Hello German mate,

    I think are more points in this article.
    I just used the article to suppose the common genetics between Ireland, more Keltic parts of Britain and most of Germany might be because of some protoCeltic people.
    And those ProtoCeltic people should have been the ancestors of Hallstatt Celts.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 28-01-19 at 20:06.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Schrijver's arguments seem pretty convincing, though the substrate influence might have been mediated by another language, for example Sami.
    Do you have a link to his arguments? They're intriguing. Could it maybe mean that if Proto-Germanic was the IA language of the Nordic group and its Jastorf Culture offshoot (or at least a heavily influenced/Germanized heir), that non-IE substrate was still present only in the Scandinavian peninsula, whereas the continental part of that Germanic-speaking area was too far (and separated by an ocean) to be influenced by it? In that assumption of mine, East Germanic was originally "continental Proto-Germanic" before West Germanic split off from North Germanic (with which it might've formed a "Scandinavian Proto-Germanic" regional dialect) and expanded southward, partially replacing the early East Germanic dialects and pushing them eastward. (Just speculating here to try to make sense of a non-IE substrate that affected only West & North Germanic, but not East Germanic, since what we call Proto-Germanic, as any other proto-language, is just a simplified reconstruction of what was certainly a still incipient dialect continuum with regional variations).


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    Celts vs slaves 😃😃😃

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Celts vs slaves 😃😃😃
    Hello mate,
    I kind of having difficulties comprehending your post.
    Could you kindly explain more detailed?

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    If I put the link from Washington Post article,with the genetic resemblance between most of Germany and Austria to Ireland and more Celtic parts of Britain, that does not means that I am supposing that character traits are somehow passed strongly by genetics.
    I am just supposing that the link is maybe an evidence that Hallstat Celts from Austria and Germany were assimilated by Germanic speakers.
    Maybe some things related to these Hallstatt Celts remained at the new formed ethnicities.
    A fact that is obvious in South Germany and Austria and Switzerland and is different from Sweden and might be inherited from the assimilated Hallstatt Celts might be cow raising.
    There is a lot of cow raising in Austria and Southern Germany and Switzerland while in Sweden there is not such a thing.
    So this might be inherited from the Hallstatt Celts.

    Another thing, that is also present at the Czech people, that might be inherited from the Hallstatt Celts is beer brewing.
    Germany is famous for beer brewing, but Sweden which is also a very Germanic country,is not having such a tradition, of brewing beer.
    Austria is also having a strong tradition related to the brewing of beer.
    See that in Switzerland, because of Italic ethnicities influence, the emphasis is on the production of wine, not on the production of beer.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Celts before roman conquests were highly advance civilization distributed from the Greece to the Scotland. It's easier to discuss what part of Europe wasn't influenced by them.
    Multi-genetic society is more adaptive and successful therefore belief celts were mono-genetic and distributed so widely is misleading I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Celts before roman conquests were highly advance civilization distributed from the Greece to the Scotland. It's easier to discuss what part of Europe wasn't influenced by them.
    Multi-genetic society is more adaptive and successful therefore belief celts were mono-genetic and distributed so widely is misleading I suppose.
    I kind of agree with your point of view that you have presented here.

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    Some new info:
    In some Roman Empire sites, from Britain, pre-AngloSaxon invasion, was found some R1B-U106.
    Some Hallstatt Celt bones is scoring highest similarity from today populations, 76% to Austrians and Bretons, from Brittany.

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    A note:
    The Celts were described as making a lot of beer.

    So, a thing quite important from German culture, having beer as traditional beverage is something inherited from the Hallstatt Celts, at today Germans.
    https://books.google.ro/books?id=NR5...20beer&f=false
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2rkc47/historians_what_kind_of_alcohol_were_the_early/


    In fact, it seems Germans of today are most Celtic nation of Europe while France did not retained almost anything, from the old Celtic culture of Celtic tribes living in France.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Glauburg was part of the Hallstatt Celts and Hallstatt came from a group of Urnfield people
    Halstatt celts became as we know bavarians............austrians are bavarians also , forming austria in 998AD, they speak austro-bavarian language, some say what bavarians also used to speak.
    Bavarians where the last of the modern Germans to become German, this was after the fall of the Roman empire
    so, Halstatt culture was never germanic influence
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Just some info, to confirm that West German nations formed from Germanics and Celtic tribes:
    In Wurtemberg West, R1B-P312 clades are 45%, from the paternal lines.
    R1B-S21 makes 18% of the paternal lines in Wurtemberg West.
    More detailed:
    R1B-U152 makes 21%, R1B-DF27 - 12 %, R1B-L21 6% and generic clades of R1B-P312 another 6%.
    In South Baden, R1B-L21 makes even 15% of the paternal lines.

    Think that Germany was actually the Urheimat of the Celts, Celts being allied to Germanic tribes from Germany and dwelling in the dense woods from Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Just some info, to confirm that West German nations formed from Germanics and Celtic tribes:
    In Wurtemberg West, R1B-P312 clades are 45%, from the paternal lines.
    R1B-S21 makes 18% of the paternal lines in Wurtemberg West.
    More detailed:
    R1B-U152 makes 21%, R1B-DF27 - 12 %, R1B-L21 6% and generic clades of R1B-P312 another 6%.
    In South Baden, R1B-L21 makes even 15% of the paternal lines.
    Think that Germany was actually the Urheimat of the Celts, Celts being allied to Germanic tribes from Germany and dwelling in the dense woods from Germany.
    did ancient germans have more R1b over I1
    R1b-U152 looks like a pure gallic-celtic marker

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Do you have a link to his arguments? They're intriguing. Could it maybe mean that if Proto-Germanic was the IA language of the Nordic group and its Jastorf Culture offshoot (or at least a heavily influenced/Germanized heir), that non-IE substrate was still present only in the Scandinavian peninsula, whereas the continental part of that Germanic-speaking area was too far (and separated by an ocean) to be influenced by it? In that assumption of mine, East Germanic was originally "continental Proto-Germanic" before West Germanic split off from North Germanic (with which it might've formed a "Scandinavian Proto-Germanic" regional dialect) and expanded southward, partially replacing the early East Germanic dialects and pushing them eastward. (Just speculating here to try to make sense of a non-IE substrate that affected only West & North Germanic, but not East Germanic, since what we call Proto-Germanic, as any other proto-language, is just a simplified reconstruction of what was certainly a still incipient dialect continuum with regional variations).

    this is a pseudo culture map\
    orange = celts
    purple = west baltic cairns culture

    etc
    etc

    where you going with this ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    did ancient germans have more R1b over I1
    R1b-U152 looks like a pure gallic-celtic marker
    I have no idea, about this matter.
    It seems Norse Speaker Germanics/Scandos had I1 and as 2nd HG, R1A-Norse.
    The Germanics, ancestors of West German nations, seems to have had both I1 and I2b and R1B-U106.
    There is also R1B-U106 in South Sweden,South Norway and Denmark, but no one knows if that is not from the Holy Roman Empire/Frankish Empire activity, in the area.
    Also, the Norse Germanics could have mixed with West Germanics, in that area, from South Sweden,South Norway and Denmark.

    Maybe some people from Germany,which is the richest EU country, currently, will start to do more serious research, regarding their history.
    Do not think is so hard or expensive to search Germanic and Celtic sites from Austria and Germany and analyze the bones found there.
    What I know is that in Tyrol R1B-U152 is even 60% in some places.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I have no idea, about this matter.
    It seems Norse Speaker Germanics/Scandos had I1 and as 2nd HG, R1A-Norse.
    The Germanics, ancestors of West German nations, seems to have had both I1 and I2b and R1B-U106.
    There is also R1B-U106 in South Sweden,South Norway and Denmark, but no one knows if that is not from the Holy Roman Empire/Frankish Empire activity, in the area.
    Also, the Norse Germanics could have mixed with West Germanics, in that area, from South Sweden,South Norway and Denmark.

    Maybe some people from Germany,which is the richest EU country, currently, will start to do more serious research, regarding their history.
    Do not think is so hard or expensive to search Germanic and Celtic sites from Austria and Germany and analyze the bones found there.
    What I know is that in Tyrol R1B-U152 is even 60% in some places.
    At the height of Celtic power Germanics would have been more or less a single group still. The earliest Germanic inscription was found in eastern Slovenia - it's not West Germanic. The contact occurred close to the Proto-Germanic level.

    At least the bulk of R1a, I2/I1 must have been non-Germanic haplogroups that were assimilated locally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    At the height of Celtic power Germanics would have been more or less a single group still. The earliest Germanic inscription was found in eastern Slovenia - it's not West Germanic. The contact occurred close to the Proto-Germanic level.

    At least the bulk of R1a, I2/I1 must have been non-Germanic haplogroups that were assimilated locally.
    So, you think Germanic was R1b ?

    R1b-U106 , is old in frisian lands, and austria ............I cannot recall, which is the older area for this marker

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    At the height of Celtic power Germanics would have been more or less a single group still. The earliest Germanic inscription was found in eastern Slovenia - it's not West Germanic. The contact occurred close to the Proto-Germanic level.

    At least the bulk of R1a, I2/I1 must have been non-Germanic haplogroups that were assimilated locally.
    If you would be so kind, could you provide more information about that, if you have, normally :) ?
    It looks very interesting to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    So, you think Germanic was R1b ?

    R1b-U106 , is old in frisian lands, and austria ............I cannot recall, which is the older area for this marker
    I have no clue, but of the three haplogroups I mentioned all except I1 seem to be locally confined. Scandinavians in general should be to a significant extent pre-Germanic IMHO. I see North-Western Germany as a speculative core area based on the toponymy, with most early Germanic dialects probably wiped out by endless internal warring and foreign invaders. West Germanic is only the latest layer from the far north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    If you would be so kind, could you provide more information about that, if you have, normally :) ?
    It looks very interesting to me.
    Pay attention to the words derived from Celtic. 'King', 'iron', 'lead', 'breastplate', 'servant'. The Germanics might initially have been in a less dignified position vis-a-vis the Celts.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categ...m_Proto-Celtic


    This is the earliest Germanic inscription from near Zenjak.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Pay attention to the words derived from Celtic. 'King', 'iron', 'lead', 'breastplate', 'servant'. The Germanics might initially have been in a less dignified position vis-a-vis the Celts.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categ...m_Proto-Celtic


    This is the earliest Germanic inscription from near Zenjak.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet
    it means very little..........its like the recent paper i presented on the illyrian helmet.........100% made in the Peloponnese by Greeks and sold to macedonians, epirotes etc. The Corinthian helmet was the preferred helmet in greece (also made in the Peloponnese)
    the Negau helmet could have been taken from the north or sold along the amber trails ..................

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Pay attention to the words derived from Celtic. 'King', 'iron', 'lead', 'breastplate', 'servant'. The Germanics might initially have been in a less dignified position vis-a-vis the Celts.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categ...m_Proto-Celtic


    This is the earliest Germanic inscription from near Zenjak.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet
    Thank you very much for providing this information.
    I have looked at the terms from ProtoGermanic taken from ProtoCeltic and these terms are clearly confirming that ProtoCelts and ProtoGermanic people were living together.

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    I know that are Celtic names of the places, in both Germany and Austria.
    In Germany, are more of those, in Austria, are fewer:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_toponymy#Germany
    However, taking only the name places of Celtic origin in Germany, to try to obtain an estimation of the influence that some Celtic ethnicities had at the formation of the German nation, think would be very misleading.
    The influence of Celtic ethnicities in the formation of the German nation should be quite significant, I think.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    An interesting article from Washington Post suggests Hallstat Celts left a strong genetic ancestry in Bavaria and Austria:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f44c7dd36ccc

    Bavaria and West Austria people,as genetics seems more similar to some Old Kelts from Ireland, than SE English people:
    On this map, the most common point of Germanics countries to Ireland (BA Rathlin?) is centered around Hessen and South Saxony, not far from the Liechtenstein cave (hotspot of I2a2). Not close to E-Bavaria and Austria!

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