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Thread: Do Hallstat Celts have some role in the formation of West Germanic ethnicities?

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    Do Hallstat Celts have some role in the formation of West Germanic ethnicities?



    Hello kind Ladies and Gents,

    (Gents is a funny term for Gentlemen)

    I will somehow pass over the introduction and will get into the subject, more directly.
    As a short note, I consider Celts and Gauls as same group of ethnicities.
    With the word Celts coming from the Greek Keltoi and the world Gauls coming from the Latin Galls.
    This group of ethnicities seems to had related languages and related cultures and lifestyles.

    Something as today Slavs are.
    If I mentioned Slavs that does not means that I am proposing a link between the Slavs and the Celts, neither that I disagree with a link between some Celtic ethnicities and some Slavic ethnicities.
    I have done very few research on this matter, of the links between the Slavs and the Celts.

    Now,from the few information that I have read, on this matter, I was thinking that these Hallstatt Celts had the center of their culture on the current land of Austria and South Germany.
    Also, it seems that these Hallstat Celts had also an important presence in what is today Slovenia, Czech Republic, Belgium, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, France, South England and Iberia.

    Now ,our forum administrator, Herr Maciamo, even made a map with how Hallstatt Culture was spread over the land of current Europe, putting also the current countries borders, on this map:



    To me it seems that these Hallstatt Kelts had an important role in the formation of the Western Germanic ethnicities.
    If you would like to add an your opinions on this matter, please write them here.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I believe the West Germanics expanded from further north, perhaps from the area of present day Denmark. Peter Schrijver has argued that West Germanic is differentiated from Proto-Germanic in that it has the typical North European substratum also present in other languages of Northern Europe. I think ancient West Germanic DNA supports a northern origin more or less.

    The West Germanic tribes would have absorbed local populations during their migrations of course, but I don't think that it was an important factor in their formation.

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    Gauls were from the northern parts of Hallstatt, indicated in Maciamo's map as 'La Tene Core'.
    Hallstatt period 2.8 ka - 2.5 ka seems to have been quite peacefull and prosperous.
    Then things changed.
    Ca 2.4 ka the Gauls core area's became overpopulated and mass migration started into the Po Valley and into the Carpathian Basin.
    Gauls were warriors. They did a lot of raiding and many became mercenairies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Gauls were from the northern parts of Hallstatt, indicated in Maciamo's map as 'La Tene Core'.
    Hallstatt period 2.8 ka - 2.5 ka seems to have been quite peacefull and prosperous.
    Then things changed.
    Ca 2.4 ka the Gauls core area's became overpopulated and mass migration started into the Po Valley and into the Carpathian Basin.
    Gauls were warriors. They did a lot of raiding and many became mercenairies.
    Ok, but do you think that Hallstatt Gauls/Celts influenced the formation of the future Western Germanic ethnicities?

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    What I think is that the Western German ethnicities were born from the mixing of the local Hallstatt Gauls/Celts with the Germanic speakers, that came from North Europe.
    As a simple note, the Slavs were calling the Germans "nemczi" - which means foreign people, while the Gauls/Celts were calling the Germans "Germans", which means neighbors.
    This is told in some study that I found on this site:
    http://www.gaeltacht.info/files/3-cu...ections-EN.pdf
    "The name ‘German’ is itself Celtic. The Irish root gair (near), to mean ‘neighbours’, has
    been suggested. However the Old Irish root gaé (spear), to mean ‘spear-carrier’ or ‘sharpwitted’,
    is stronger. In Modern Irish, ‘géar’ means ‘sharp’. The Roman word germanus
    (‘real’ or ‘authentic’) takes up the latter meaning."



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Ok, but do you think that Hallstatt Gauls/Celts influenced the formation of the future Western Germanic ethnicities?
    no, but when the Germanic tirbes moved south and crossed the borders of the Roman Empire, they mixed with the Gauls, they didn't replace them

    France as a country is formed by the invading Franks, a Germanic tribe, but the French are ethnically derived in large parts from the Gauls.

    the Germanic people had Y-DNA mainly I1 and R1b-U106, the Gauls R1b-P312
    autosomal DNA was related to each other

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Ok, but do you think that Hallstatt Gauls/Celts influenced the formation of the future Western Germanic ethnicities?
    the celts where already in central and south germany before Halstatt
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
    they would have been there either with rossen culture or shortly after.
    .
    origin of germanic is north germany and denmark
    .
    halstatt culture was due to celts pushing south into the alps and mixing with the illyrians who where already there
    some say...hal is illyrian for salt......statt is celtic for town ....so, halstatt means salt town
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Gauls were from the northern parts of Hallstatt, indicated in Maciamo's map as 'La Tene Core'.
    Hallstatt period 2.8 ka - 2.5 ka seems to have been quite peacefull and prosperous.
    Then things changed.
    Ca 2.4 ka the Gauls core area's became overpopulated and mass migration started into the Po Valley and into the Carpathian Basin.
    Gauls were warriors. They did a lot of raiding and many became mercenairies.
    the only mass migration of celts in the Po valley from what i recall occurred circa 550BC ....i do not recall any others of note

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    no, but when the Germanic tirbes moved south and crossed the borders of the Roman Empire, they mixed with the Gauls, they didn't replace them

    France as a country is formed by the invading Franks, a Germanic tribe, but the French are ethnically derived in large parts from the Gauls.

    the Germanic people had Y-DNA mainly I1 and R1b-U106, the Gauls R1b-P312
    autosomal DNA was related to each other
    Maciamo has proposed that R1B-U106 is linked to the Germanic speakers.

    However, highest percentage of R1B-U106 is exactly over the areas where it was the core of Hallstatt Culture : Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Austria.
    In some areas of Italy, where West Germanic tribes migrated, after East Germanic tribes, are areas where I1 is even 30%.
    However, R1B-U106 is not at high percentages in Italy, actually, is at low percentages.

    So is possible that the Hallstatt Celts took a more Northern Route, it seems it was something like NW Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, North France, Brittany and Great Britain and Ireland.

    Other Hallstatt Celts went to Denmark and South Norway. Established there and mixed to North Germanic speakers and assimilated into North Germanic ethnicity.
    See that in South Sweden R1B-U106 is at low percentages, Sweden got like 12-13% R1B, all clades.
    40% of Norway maternal lines are common to Britain and Ireland. It seems a little exaggerated to tell that Norwegian Vikings took so many Britain and Ireland women, to have 40% of their women similar on maternal lines, with those from Britain and Ireland.
    In Iceland, 66% of the women are having common maternal lines with the women from Ireland and Britain.
    How that happened, I have no idea.
    According to mister Coon manual of Human Races, which is based on cranial measurements and body measurements and is very scientific stuff, Britain people are mostly Iron Age Celtic people, as race.
    And as I see from Herr Maciamo map, all Britain got quite high percentages of R1B-S21. Now, in England is known to have been strong Germanic migrations, but what about Wales and Scotland?
    How R1B-U106 have such significant percentages in Scotland?
    Even more weird mister Coon finds in his book that the Brits, the Irish and the South Norwegians are very close, from racial point of view.
    Is not that weird?
    In England it was mostly Danish Vikings that raided, not Norwegian Vikings.

    This is my supposition.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 23-01-19 at 13:45.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I believe the West Germanics expanded from further north, perhaps from the area of present day Denmark. Peter Schrijver has argued that West Germanic is differentiated from Proto-Germanic in that it has the typical North European substratum also present in other languages of Northern Europe. I think ancient West Germanic DNA supports a northern origin more or less.
    I didn't get this point. So East Germanic lacked that North European substratum? I find it hard to believe that Proto-Germanic would've lacked it, considering that it is a very late proto-language, with its latest stage in the beginning of the Common Era. Can we really believe that a pre-IE substrate still existed there to influence just West Germanic and other North European languages but not its immediate antecedent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I didn't get this point. So East Germanic lacked that North European substratum? I find it hard to believe that Proto-Germanic would've lacked it, considering that it is a very late proto-language, with its latest stage in the beginning of the Common Era. Can we really believe that a pre-IE substrate still existed there to influence just West Germanic and other North European languages but not its immediate antecedent?
    Schrijver's arguments seem pretty convincing, though the substrate influence might have been mediated by another language, for example Sami.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess we spend so much time on the forum that we forget to revisit Maciamo's initial writings as often as we should. Here is what he writes about R-U106 :

    "The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106 or M405). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.

    The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy."

    I reckon it clarifies a lot of what is being discussed here.

    In terms of language, my theories are - provisionally - as follows :
    - Germanic languages are centum.
    - Corded Ware were essentially R1a, and my hunch is that by that time, the process of satemization among them was already under way.
    - So Corded Ware may have to a degree "reinforced" the IE vocabulary brought in by Unetice U106, but was otherwise superseded by the newcomers' centum version. By the way, the CWC seems to come to an end as a culture concomitantly with the rise of L51+ clades in north-eastern Europe.
    - Which leaves I1 groups as a potential substratum. Their percentages in Scandinavia are high enough for them to have significantly altered the language of the newcomers.
    - I doubt the Saami were involved. The percentages of haplo N in Scandinavia proper (ie, Finland excepted) are negligible as compared to I1.

    Also noteworthy is Maciamo's chart of haplogroups by country.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

    If one focuses on haplogroups I1, R1a, and R1b, there is a clearcut divide between Germany and England on the one hand, and Scandinavian countries on the other. Which goes to show that the Germanic tribes did assimilate the Celts who were in Germany when they spread south from Northern Germany, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Except that those Celts were essentially L21 in Britain, and P312 in southern Germany.

    What I am not too sure about is whether the Germans spread south to fill a void when some of the Celtic tribes moved en masse from Germany into France and northern Italy at some point(s) in time during late Halstatt and/or early La Tène, or whether it was the spread of the Germans which pushed the Celts away. Anyway, if you look at Maciamo's map of U152 (in his R1b page), you can't fail to see that some U152 did stay and were germanized. And as those U152 couldn't have been, all of them, German beforehand, they had to be Celts, for lack of other options. The south-western quarter of Germany is definitely Celto-Germanic.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    When it comes to DNA, East Germanics might be very interesting because they are the first to split. The ancestors of the Norse & West Germanics would probably still have been a more or less unified population for some time after.

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    A simple thing, based on very checked data:
    R1B-S21 does not peaks, as Maciamo had initial information,from Germany, in NW Germany, but in Bavaria as it seems.
    Anyway, this needs to be checked.
    R1B-U106 in Tyrol is a little above 20%:
    http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Ty...etic_structure
    As a side info:
    Ladin speaking people from Tyrol:
    R1B - 65%.

    Another thing, R1B-S21 makes half of Romania R1B so it is between 5-10% in Romania. There is at least one study from a Germany University, about Neamt County, where R1B-S21 is 7.5%. Neamt County is a mountain county.
    If Goths brought R1B-S21 in Romania it seems that Visigoths were not carrying R1B-S21, because R1B-S21 is almost absent in Iberia.
    But Goths for sure migrated in Italy, besides Romania and R1B-S21 is found at very low percentages in Italy.

    In Italy, I1 peaks at even 30% in some places:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti...al_immigration
    The Goths migration to Romania/Dacia was around 250 AD, in Italy a little later.

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    What I am thinking, as a supposition is that protoGermanic speakers or some Germanic speakers, mixed with the Hallstat Celts and from this mixing were born the West Germanic nations.
    It would be interested to research if Austrian dialects of West Germanic and Bavarian dialects, are having any influences from FinoUgrian languages ,or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the only mass migration of celts in the Po valley from what i recall occurred circa 550BC ....i do not recall any others of note
    which mass migration ca 550 BC ?

    2.4 ka coincides with the expansion of the Gauls and with the conquest of Rome by Brennus
    they settled with their families in the Po Valley
    they defated the Etruscans
    then some of them formed bands or became mercenairies and entered deeper into Italy
    one of them was Brennus and his band, who came into conflict with Rome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the celts where already in central and south germany before Halstatt
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
    they would have been there either with rossen culture or shortly after.
    .
    origin of germanic is north germany and denmark
    .
    halstatt culture was due to celts pushing south into the alps and mixing with the illyrians who where already there
    some say...hal is illyrian for salt......statt is celtic for town ....so, halstatt means salt town
    Glauburg was part of the Hallstatt Celts and Hallstatt came from a group of Urnfield people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I didn't get this point. So East Germanic lacked that North European substratum? I find it hard to believe that Proto-Germanic would've lacked it, considering that it is a very late proto-language, with its latest stage in the beginning of the Common Era. Can we really believe that a pre-IE substrate still existed there to influence just West Germanic and other North European languages but not its immediate antecedent?
    East and West Germanic came from the same Proto-Germanic in Southern Scandinavia.
    East Germanic expanded south into Balto-Slavic R1a Y-DNA territory.
    West Germanic expanded south into Celtic R1b-P312 Y-DNA territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    which mass migration ca 550 BC ?
    2.4 ka coincides with the expansion of the Gauls and with the conquest of Rome by Brennus
    they settled with their families in the Po Valley
    they defated the Etruscans
    then some of them formed bands or became mercenairies and entered deeper into Italy
    one of them was Brennus and his band, who came into conflict with Rome
    what date do you mean by 2.4 ka
    .
    Did not hannibal recruit very many gaulish/celtic people from NW -Italy , as he entered Italy from France.
    .
    Did not the Boii , Semnones etc settle in Italy......is not the town of Bologna named after the celtic Boii people?
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I guess we spend so much time on the forum that we forget to revisit Maciamo's initial writings as often as we should. Here is what he writes about R-U106 :
    "The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106 or M405). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.
    The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy."
    I reckon it clarifies a lot of what is being discussed here.
    In terms of language, my theories are - provisionally - as follows :
    - Germanic languages are centum.
    - Corded Ware were essentially R1a, and my hunch is that by that time, the process of satemization among them was already under way.
    - So Corded Ware may have to a degree "reinforced" the IE vocabulary brought in by Unetice U106, but was otherwise superseded by the newcomers' centum version. By the way, the CWC seems to come to an end as a culture concomitantly with the rise of L51+ clades in north-eastern Europe.
    - Which leaves I1 groups as a potential substratum. Their percentages in Scandinavia are high enough for them to have significantly altered the language of the newcomers.
    - I doubt the Saami were involved. The percentages of haplo N in Scandinavia proper (ie, Finland excepted) are negligible as compared to I1.
    Also noteworthy is Maciamo's chart of haplogroups by country.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml
    If one focuses on haplogroups I1, R1a, and R1b, there is a clearcut divide between Germany and England on the one hand, and Scandinavian countries on the other. Which goes to show that the Germanic tribes did assimilate the Celts who were in Germany when they spread south from Northern Germany, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Except that those Celts were essentially L21 in Britain, and P312 in southern Germany.
    What I am not too sure about is whether the Germans spread south to fill a void when some of the Celtic tribes moved en masse from Germany into France and northern Italy at some point(s) in time during late Halstatt and/or early La Tène, or whether it was the spread of the Germans which pushed the Celts away. Anyway, if you look at Maciamo's map of U152 (in his R1b page), you can't fail to see that some U152 did stay and were germanized. And as those U152 couldn't have been, all of them, German beforehand, they had to be Celts, for lack of other options. The south-western quarter of Germany is definitely Celto-Germanic.
    Your last para
    The Romans conquered the alpine tribes/people after they conquered Gaul/France
    .
    There where no Germanic people south of the Danube river until after the fall of the Roman empire.....so south of the Danube river in south Germany and the Alps was still Celtic, illyrian, raetic, helvetic , venetic etc
    The bavarians, where the last of modern germany to become a germanic people ..................austrians are also of bavarian stock forming Austria in 998AD and speaking an austro-bavarian language

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    What I am thinking, as a supposition is that protoGermanic speakers or some Germanic speakers, mixed with the Hallstat Celts and from this mixing were born the West Germanic nations.
    It would be interested to research if Austrian dialects of West Germanic and Bavarian dialects, are having any influences from FinoUgrian languages ,or not.
    Bavarians are first mentioned in the mid 6th century, in the foothills north of the Alps, on both sides of the Danube river.
    The Suevi and macromanni where first mentioned on the north side of the danube river in 100AD.
    The Alans and Lombards came into the area of the alps before the bavarians where formed

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what date do you mean by 2.4 ka
    .
    Did not hannibal recruit very many gaulish/celtic people from NW -Italy , as he entered Italy from France.
    .
    Did not the Boii , Semnones etc settle in Italy......is not the town of Bologna named after the celtic Boii people?
    .
    2.4 ka is 400 BC, about the time the Semnones settled in Italy, and also a Boii tribe if I remember well.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Your last para
    The Romans conquered the alpine tribes/people after they conquered Gaul/France
    .
    There where no Germanic people south of the Danube river until after the fall of the Roman empire.....so south of the Danube river in south Germany and the Alps was still Celtic, illyrian, raetic, helvetic , venetic etc
    The bavarians, where the last of modern germany to become a germanic people ..................austrians are also of bavarian stock forming Austria in 998AD and speaking an austro-bavarian language
    You are right. Just found this map :

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germai...e_Germanic.png

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    So a lot Celtic ethnicities were assimilated by the migrating Germanic speaking tribes, especially on the land where West Germanic languages are spoken now.
    So a lot of Gauls/Celtic ethnicities had at least an important role in forming the West Germanic ethnicies.
    It looks that in some areas of current speaking West Germanic areas, Gaulish/Celtic ethnicities gave more from the people DNA and lifestyle and culture than the migrating Germanic people gave. For example in Bavaria or in Tyrol.
    I think Ladin speakers from Switzerland and Tyrol are actually some Celtic ethnicities, not Romans/Italics.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I certainly believe that Hallstatt Celtic had an influence on the West Germanics. Certainly in cultural sense!
    According to Celtic language specialist Peter Schrijver the Frisians of the (pre-) Roman period spoke a kind of Celtic, related to Brittonic.
    This disappeared when the Saxons and Nordics came to Friesland in the fourth and fifth century.

    I see the Jastorf Culture as the culture that spread the Germanic culture. This North German culture is some kind of core culture for the Saxons.

    By the way I don't believe that there is a coherent kind of Germanic people. It is just that the Romans used German as a label for people on the right side of the Rhine. But that was not intended to describe it as a kind of unity. Neither do Slavs or Celts.

    In genetic sense the people right of the Rhine are pretty differentiated (certainly when we take also Scandinavia in account). With in the Western, North Sea bordering, Germanic part, the dominant Y-DNA is R1b U106 (and some other R1b variants). But the R1b U106 was in the West Germanic area already there before the label German was used. The first R1b U106 was in found a, Central European related, Tumulus culture (better said Sögel-Wohlde period), in Oostwoud (West-Frisia) about 1800 BC.

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