Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 45 of 45

Thread: Western migration route from Africa into Iberia

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-09-16
    Posts
    174
    Points
    4,236
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,236, Level: 18
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    In that you could probably get the same results from a variety of histories involving who knows what mixtures and ghost populations; and on top of that there's reference bias and perhaps other artifacts to consider.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-16
    Posts
    11
    Points
    1,887
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,887, Level: 12
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Afghanistan



    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    In that you could probably get the same results from a variety of histories involving who knows what mixtures and ghost populations
    Are you implying false postitive results, as in a population showing a signature of African admixture in f statistics but it's maybe not indicative of straightforward African ancestry? Couldn't you have this potentiality with any population, not just Africans?


    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    and on top of that there's reference bias and perhaps other artifacts to consider.
    Can you elaborate a bit more? I take it you have some personal experience using these software packages.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-09-16
    Posts
    174
    Points
    4,236
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,236, Level: 18
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    No, I don't do any of this stuff, just looking at other people's results. Yes, marginal results could be misleading in any case. Africa is only worse because there is such deep diverse branching mixed together and much less ancient DNA.

  4. #29
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,304
    Points
    34,391
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,391, Level: 57
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 1,059
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    very weird
    at K=7 the CHG splits in 2 components, and only one of them is in steppe

    I guess this is one of the flaws of K admixture, which splits into different components depending on what populations are compared in the mix
    It's what I find unpleasant since some studies: inconsistance of admixtures runs from survey to survey. Impossibility to compare quietly. Aside IBD what is of worth?

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    it's worth to know that if someone tries hard, it can be founf SSA admixture, or Mongolian steppe admixture, no matter.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,764
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,764, Level: 22
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 286
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I've been wondering that too.
    Prior to Iberomaurisian there was Aterian, which descended from the archaic Jebel Irhoud population (315 ka), so not the SSA.
    If SSA entered Iberia, these people must have crossed Iberomaurisian territory prior to that.
    We dont have Iberomaurusian samples from all their existence, only from Epipaleolithic. It's very possible that, early Iberomaurusians were genetically different than later ones. Just like Gravettians were C1a2 people that were replaced with R1b in Epigravettian with a different ancestry cf. ( dolni vestonice against villabruna cluser ). But at the same level, it's frustrating to know that a place lile Iberia who is the dominant place in Europe for prehistoric Archeology, cannot give us more samples than Eastern Europe.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    21-05-18
    Posts
    11
    Points
    736
    Level
    6
    Points: 736, Level: 6
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: USA - California



    We so far have mtDNA haplogroups L2a1 and L1b1a in Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia, and a L2a1 sample from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture located in Tell Halula, Syria. These samples do not have any Sub-Saharan African admixture correct? If I recall in the Lazaridis et al. 2018 preprint, the Iberomaurusians were demonstrated to have had no SSA ancestry, and they contributed ancestry to Sub-Saharan Africans not the other way around. It could be that the Iberomaurusians and/or their descendants contributed ancestry to some of the peoples of Neolithic Western and Southern Europe. That may explain why mtDNA Haplogroups L2a1 and L1b1a show up in Neolithic/Copper Age Iberia. Seeing that mtDNA haplogroups L2 and L1 both predate the widely accepted date of Homo Sapiens entry into Eurasia at 70,000 ybp, is it possible that like Y-DNA haplogroups A, B, BT, and CT, various subclades of mtDNA haplogroup L were part of the original gene pool of the first Eurasians?

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,764
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,764, Level: 22
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 286
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    We so far have mtDNA haplogroups L2a1 and L1b1a in Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia, and a L2a1 sample from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture located in Tell Halula, Syria. These samples do not have any Sub-Saharan African admixture correct? If I recall in the Lazaridis et al. 2018 preprint, the Iberomaurusians were demonstrated to have had no SSA ancestry, and they contributed ancestry to Sub-Saharan Africans not the other way around. It could be that the Iberomaurusians and/or their descendants contributed ancestry to some of the peoples of Neolithic Western and Southern Europe. That may explain why mtDNA Haplogroups L2a1 and L1b1a show up in Neolithic/Copper Age Iberia. Seeing that mtDNA haplogroups L2 and L1 both predate the widely accepted date of Homo Sapiens entry into Eurasia at 70,000 ybp, is it possible that like Y-DNA haplogroups A, B, BT, and CT, various subclades of mtDNA haplogroup L were part of the original gene pool of the first Eurasians?
    BT and CT were already found in some Paleolithic Europeans and Neolithic Middle-Easterns, but i dont know if they lacked SNP's, so actually the BT and CT individuals might more likely be just C1a2 or C1b. As for Iberomaurusians, it's a little bit complicated because Iberomaurusians and Natufians have a clear shared ancestry, and the mtdna U6 in Iberomaurusians, is probably not native North African. As i said in my post, it would be interesting to have early Iberomaurusian samples, instead of the late one that we have. The genetic signatures might been different in the two groups. It's like comparing Gravettians of the Vestonice Cluster and Epi-Gravettians of the Villabruna Cluster. As far as the mtdna L samples, at this point it's hard to have any conclusions because this L2a1 individual from Iberia have no SSA ancestry, but doesn't have Iberomaurusian ancestry either. It might just mean that her ancestors were already here to take in the face the Neolithic ancestry and lose entirely their previous ancestry, or something like that.

  9. #34
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,304
    Points
    34,391
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,391, Level: 57
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 1,059
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I've been wondering that too.
    Prior to Iberomaurisian there was Aterian, which descended from the archaic Jebel Irhoud population (315 ka), so not the SSA.
    If SSA entered Iberia, these people must have crossed Iberomaurisian territory prior to that.
    Ancient physical anthropology spoke of the 'grimaldi' type in mediterranea, modified over time and almost disappearing in late Neolithic; showing the most of its features very close to 'cro-magnon' but with some features evocating 'negroid' (old namings). A fragrence of AFN old cultures? mixture or old badly differentiated types, as what occurred in South SIberia?

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    21-05-18
    Posts
    11
    Points
    736
    Level
    6
    Points: 736, Level: 6
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: USA - California



    Thanks for your input. I always thought that—along with Y-dna A and C—mtdna L was a surviving lineage of the original Eurasians. That’s why mtdna L and Y-dna A are found in Northern Europe and parts of West Asia. Is there an ancient mtdna database online by chance? I am still trying to find a link to that L2a1 Tell Halula sample.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,764
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,764, Level: 22
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 286
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Thanks for your input. I always thought that—along with Y-dna A and C—mtdna L was a surviving lineage of the original Eurasians. That’s why mtdna L and Y-dna A are found in Northern Europe and parts of West Asia. Is there an ancient mtdna database online by chance? I am still trying to find a link to that L2a1 Tell Halula sample.
    mtdna L and y-dna A must been recent commers to Northern Europe, they never were found in Paleolithic and Neolithic samples to date. There was a minor hypothesis that y-dna E and mtdna L3 were in fact Eurasian coming back to Africa, but it's hard to conciliate with the datas, y-dna E was found in the Levantine Natufians but not mtdna L3 ( or any other L ). I didn't know about the Tell Halula sample until you spoked of it, and i cannot found anything in the prehistoric samples interactive map i used in general. There was a website from Jean Manco wich repertoriate an amazing set of samples from almost every studies on ancient dna, but unfortunately she past out and the website eventually shut down. But even, i dont recall have found an L2 from Tell Halula in her tables.

    The only prehistoric mtdna L samples i know are:

    Mota 1, Ethiopia, 2'500 BC: Y-dna E1b1, Mtdna L3X2a.

    Pastoral Neolithic, Tanzania, 1200-940 BC: mtdna L2a1.

    Malawi Stone Age, Malawi, 700-400 BC: mtdna L0f.

    Nachikufu, Malawi, 8000-3000 BC: Y-dna BT, Mtdna L0K2.

    And a few prehistoric HG's from South Africa, all y-dna A and mtdna L, probably ancestors of Khoikhoi people.

    Also one of the Guanche sample from the Canaria Islands was: Mtdna L3b1a.

  12. #37
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,304
    Points
    34,391
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,391, Level: 57
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 1,059
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    it's worth to know that if someone tries hard, it can be founf SSA admixture, or Mongolian steppe admixture, no matter.
    Short post. What will you mean here?
    All the way, I'm not sure we know always separate little traces of admixture from very remote common heritage. I suppose it depends on length of shared segments?

  13. #38
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Very interesting

    How weird these admixture charts. Where is all the green of CHG or Iran Neolithic in the LNBA steppe? They show some Anatolian blue, Levantine puple even, but almost no green CHG. How is that so?

  14. #39
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's not in the PCA, nor in K6 or K7
    it is only detectable with D- and f3-statistics
    Then how can they define that as small but significant Subsaharan ancestry. Significant? It looks like some tiny residual ancestry picked up by Neolithic North Africans possibly related to the Cardial Ware in the southern Mediterranean coast, which also extended to/from Iberia. But I fail to see anything significant about those results. It happened, but apparently without major or even minor but notable impact.

  15. #40
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    We so far have mtDNA haplogroups L2a1 and L1b1a in Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia, and a L2a1 sample from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture located in Tell Halula, Syria. These samples do not have any Sub-Saharan African admixture correct? If I recall in the Lazaridis et al. 2018 preprint, the Iberomaurusians were demonstrated to have had no SSA ancestry, and they contributed ancestry to Sub-Saharan Africans not the other way around. It could be that the Iberomaurusians and/or their descendants contributed ancestry to some of the peoples of Neolithic Western and Southern Europe. That may explain why mtDNA Haplogroups L2a1 and L1b1a show up in Neolithic/Copper Age Iberia. Seeing that mtDNA haplogroups L2 and L1 both predate the widely accepted date of Homo Sapiens entry into Eurasia at 70,000 ybp, is it possible that like Y-DNA haplogroups A, B, BT, and CT, various subclades of mtDNA haplogroup L were part of the original gene pool of the first Eurasians?
    1/3 of the ancestry of UP Iberomaurusians had close affinities to Subsaharan Africans, mainly a Hadza-like population, but it is indeed not found in any modern African population. My guess is that that 1/3 Hadza-like admixture represents the genetic structure of North Africa before West Eurasian back-migration that brought Basal Eurasian ancestry and other Eurasian admixtures that would eventually cause the high genetic affinity with the Natufians (who also had some North African input).

  16. #41
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,233
    Points
    41,216
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,216, Level: 62
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 434
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    1/3 of the ancestry of UP Iberomaurusians had close affinities to Subsaharan Africans, mainly a Hadza-like population, but it is indeed not found in any modern African population. My guess is that that 1/3 Hadza-like admixture represents the genetic structure of North Africa before West Eurasian back-migration that brought Basal Eurasian ancestry and other Eurasian admixtures that would eventually cause the high genetic affinity with the Natufians (who also had some North African input).
    In the Dzudzuana study, it says that it is the other way around. There is no Yoruba in Iberomaurisians, there is Iberomaurisian in Yoruba.
    So, no SSA in Iberomaurisian.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Short post. What will you mean here?
    All the way, I'm not sure we know always separate little traces of admixture from very remote common heritage. I suppose it depends on length of shared segments?
    the paper tries to state SSA ancestry in ancient Iberians when in admixture graphs they can't get even a trace, even among ancient Maghribins! so they go to downgrade other samples as to level them with the sample with mtDNA L till geting some SSA signal... but even so the sample with L is not prividing SSA (!!). this paper is like one demonstrating that Earth is flat providing photos from Australia, Italy and Canada showing a flat horizon.

  18. #43
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,304
    Points
    34,391
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,391, Level: 57
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 1,059
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    How weird these admixture charts. Where is all the green of CHG or Iran Neolithic in the LNBA steppe? They show some Anatolian blue, Levantine puple even, but almost no green CHG. How is that so?
    ??
    It seems they made a 'steppe' component with the most of HG and CHG/Iran, putting the remnant of CHG/Iran in the Anatolian component???

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,764
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,764, Level: 22
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 286
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Yeah those colors are weird, first why put Iran_N and Chl together, with that high of Anatolian ancestry, when they always told us that Iranian Farmers were distinct from Anatolians and Levantines ones. It's just confusing more. Also the Anatolian ancestry in SHG and the Iranian one in EHG is weird, it cannot be clear what is it about.

  20. #45
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-02-19
    Posts
    1


    Country: Colombia



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    the paper tries to state SSA ancestry in ancient Iberians when in admixture graphs they can't get even a trace, even among ancient Maghribins! so they go to downgrade other samples as to level them with the sample with mtDNA L till geting some SSA signal... but even so the sample with L is not prividing SSA (!!). this paper is like one demonstrating that Earth is flat providing photos from Australia, Italy and Canada showing a flat horizon.
    That analogy was beautiful.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •