Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 45

Thread: Western migration route from Africa into Iberia

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    248,829
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,829, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Western migration route from Africa into Iberia

    See:

    G.Gonzalez-Fortes et al:
    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2018.2288

    "Being at the western fringe of Europe, Iberia had a peculiar prehistory and a complex pattern of Neolithization. A few studies, all based on modern populations, reported the presence of DNA of likely African origin in this region, generally concluding it was the result of recent gene flow, probably during the Islamic period. Here, we provide evidence of much older gene flow from Africa to Iberia by sequencing whole genomes from four human remains from northern Portugal and southern Spain dated around 4000 years BP (from the Middle Neolithic to the Bronze Age). We found one of them to carry an unequivocal sub-Saharan mitogenome of most probably West or West-Central African origin, to our knowledge never reported before in prehistoric remains outside Africa. Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. We interpret this result as evidence of an early migration process from Africa into the Iberian Peninsula through a western route, possibly across the Strait of Gibraltar."

    If correct, it means that once again the programs purporting to date admixture seem to pick up only the most recent event.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Moderator Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    2,613
    Points
    70,238
    Level
    82
    Points: 70,238, Level: 82
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 1,212
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Very interesting


  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    yes, very interesting, now as the steppe autosomal in COV20126 is linked to African mt DNA I must admit that the steppe theory is right... only to change the Pontic steppe by the Sahel one!
    ;)

    just irony, realy I need much to deal with Reich fans
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    248,829
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,829, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    yes, very interesting, now as the steppe autosomal in COV20126 is linked to African mt DNA I must admit that the steppe theory is right... only to change the Pontic steppe by the Sahel one!
    ;)

    just irony, realy I need much to deal with Reich fans
    There is no "steppe" in that sample: it's typical Iberian Middle Neolithic/Chalcolithic.

    Plus, since you like irony: what a surprise if mtDna and yDna in a sample should come from different migrations from different time periods. That would overturn all modern population genetics! :)

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    quite weird, at K7 neither steppe nor BB / CWC display CHG

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Alain Affelou:

    The WHG (orange) and Anatolian Neolithic (blue) are the major genome components in all our four Iberian samples, although at K = 7, a component (pink) associated with the Russian Steppes, is already visible in COV20126.

  7. #7
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    quite weird, at K7 neither steppe nor BB / CWC display CHG
    What do you mean, I swear BB has CHG, and CWC definitely has quite a lot of it. Is that what this paper says?

  8. #8
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    248,829
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,829, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    None at K6, at K7 the tiniest smidgeon of "steppe".

    All as expected I would say...a late, gradual entrance into Iberia.

    It doesn't matter whether it's a big lab or a small one, international/American, or Spanish. The narrative is consistent.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What do you mean, I swear BB has CHG, and CWC definitely has quite a lot of it. Is that what this paper says?
    at K6 the green CHG is present in steppe and CWC, at K7 the green which is 2/3 in CHG disappears in such pops, weird, but to me ok as it goes for my first bet about IE from Kievan Rus.

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    at K6 the green CHG is present in steppe and CWC, at K7 the green which is 2/3 in CHG disappears in such pops, weird, but to me ok as it goes for my first bet about IE from Kievan Rus.
    very weird
    at K=7 the CHG splits in 2 components, and only one of them is in steppe

    I guess this is one of the flaws of K admixture, which splits into different components depending on what populations are compared in the mix

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    None at K6, at K7 the tiniest smidgeon of "steppe".

    All as expected I would say...a late, gradual entrance into Iberia.

    It doesn't matter whether it's a big lab or a small one, international/American, or Spanish. The narrative is consistent.
    at K7 there is a diluted but clear signal of steppe in BA Iberia which wasn't there in MN/Chl Iberia
    it has to do with the R1b-P312 expansion in Europe, which was not accompanied by any specific mtDNA : they took local wives along the way of their expansion

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    if you accept K7 then you must accept that Iran Neolithic and Anatolia Chalco had already been invaded by Yamnayans before they popped up in the steppes... weird again?

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    yes, very interesting, now as the steppe autosomal in COV20126 is linked to African mt DNA I must admit that the steppe theory is right... only to change the Pontic steppe by the Sahel one!
    ;)

    just irony, realy I need much to deal with Reich fans
    See just like i said in another thread, you are quoting Steppe or IE's without even being it the matter of the subject...

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    I must be blind but where exactly this sentence " Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. " Is shown into the admixture chart?

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I must be blind but where exactly this sentence " Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. " Is shown into the admixture chart?
    it's not in the PCA, nor in K6 or K7
    it is only detectable with D- and f3-statistics

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Even as they dont find SSA admixture in the individual with African mtDNA they downgrade other samples till get such admixture... but the guy is so problematic that he dont display it even so.
    :)

    For these programs I'm getting the impression that behave like the best Marx bro.

    Attachment 10645

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's not in the PCA, nor in K6 or K7
    it is only detectable with D- and f3-statistics
    And do we know what kind of sub-saharian ancestry did they found, what was the prehistoric proxy for it Mota, Nachikufu? Or is it modern SSA ancestry? Also why they express specifically an emphasis on SSA ancestry and not African one in general? Hard time to imagine that individual in prehistoric Spain with SSA ancestry, didn't have North African ancestry too no?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-09-16
    Posts
    174
    Points
    4,236
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,236, Level: 18
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    SSA proxies were ancient South Africans: Ballito Bay (Khoisan) and Iron Age (Bantu), both gave (barely) significant D stats.

  19. #19
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    SSA proxies were ancient South Africans: Ballito Bay (Khoisan) and Iron Age (Bantu), both gave (barely) significant D stats.
    how old is the Ballito Bay (Khoisan)?
    were they herders or HG?

    domesticated animals arrived in S.-Africa ca 2 ka through contact with herders from PPNB Levantine descent

    Mota or the Malawi HG would have been a better reference to compare against

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    according to Ted Kendal, this is the Y-DNA :
    Ted Kandell is met Max De Plum en 3 anderen.
    19 januari om 21:23
    The new Ancient Iberian Genomes unpublished study, PRJEB29189, has three whole genomes that have high-coverage Y-DNA sequences from 4500-3500 ybp. Vadim, can you add these to the YFull tree?
    No "Steppe" / "Bell Beaker" ancestry in Iberia yet.
    The haplogroups are as follows.
    Who are the "lucky winners" here who match them on the YFull tree?
    A spreadsheet of all the Y SNPs for these ancient Iberian individuals:
    https://docs.google.com/…/1thcQUVLKg...kXD…/edit…
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB29189
    LU339 "partial" I-Y3749:
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3749/
    AMM080/Y4661/FGC7133+
    FGC7139/Y3749-
    COV20126 I-Y34539*:
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y34539/
    LD270 "partial" H-Y20838:
    https://yfull.com/tree/H-Y20838/
    Z19077+
    Z19083+
    Z19118+
    Y21665-
    Y21636-
    Y20840-
    Y20836-
    Y21673-
    Y21633-
    Y21635-
    Y21640-

    it doesn't match the Y-DNA published in the study itself (G2a2b)
    a sloppy job?

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how old is the Ballito Bay (Khoisan)?
    were they herders or HG?

    domesticated animals arrived in S.-Africa ca 2 ka through contact with herders from PPNB Levantine descent

    Mota or the Malawi HG would have been a better reference to compare against
    Yes the Malawi HG is Nachikufu.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    But there is something i dont really understand " An alternative possibility is that gene flow may have occurred even earlier in Southern Iberia from a population with Sub-Saharan African features, which left some genetic contribution in the genomes of the people, the local hunter–gatherers, they admixed with " I'm not sure how prehistoric Iberians and prehistoric Sub-Saharian Africans are supposed to have mixed without Iberomaurusian-related ancestry being more dominant than the Sub-Saharian One. Also the mtdna L2a1 shows no SSA ancestry at all, wich could mean that the lineage was at the time enough old in that place to have her SSA ancestry diluted into Neolithic ones. It's then possible that the SSA ancestry was related with a North African ancestry older than Iberomaurusians and more close to SSA, less Basal Eurasian.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-09-16
    Posts
    174
    Points
    4,236
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,236, Level: 18
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    Yeah, it's weird. L2a1 and L1b are clear enough indicators, but the D stat signal is pretty marginal, should we be sure it's even real? Seems like it wouldn't take much of undetected artifact somewhere to throw them off.

    In general f stats involving Africans are hard to interpret, and I'll be surprised if the real population history isn't way more complicated than any qpGraph yet attempted.

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But there is something i dont really understand " An alternative possibility is that gene flow may have occurred even earlier in Southern Iberia from a population with Sub-Saharan African features, which left some genetic contribution in the genomes of the people, the local hunter–gatherers, they admixed with " I'm not sure how prehistoric Iberians and prehistoric Sub-Saharian Africans are supposed to have mixed without Iberomaurusian-related ancestry being more dominant than the Sub-Saharian One. Also the mtdna L2a1 shows no SSA ancestry at all, wich could mean that the lineage was at the time enough old in that place to have her SSA ancestry diluted into Neolithic ones. It's then possible that the SSA ancestry was related with a North African ancestry older than Iberomaurusians and more close to SSA, less Basal Eurasian.
    I've been wondering that too.
    Prior to Iberomaurisian there was Aterian, which descended from the archaic Jebel Irhoud population (315 ka), so not the SSA.
    If SSA entered Iberia, these people must have crossed Iberomaurisian territory prior to that.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-16
    Posts
    11
    Points
    1,918
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,918, Level: 12
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 232
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Afghanistan



    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Yeah, it's weird. L2a1 and L1b are clear enough indicators, but the D stat signal is pretty marginal, should we be sure it's even real? Seems like it wouldn't take much of undetected artifact somewhere to throw them off.

    In general f stats involving Africans are hard to interpret, and I'll be surprised if the real population history isn't way more complicated than any qpGraph yet attempted.

    Hard to interpret in what way?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •