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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Western migration route from Africa into Iberia

    See:

    G.Gonzalez-Fortes et al:
    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2018.2288

    "Being at the western fringe of Europe, Iberia had a peculiar prehistory and a complex pattern of Neolithization. A few studies, all based on modern populations, reported the presence of DNA of likely African origin in this region, generally concluding it was the result of recent gene flow, probably during the Islamic period. Here, we provide evidence of much older gene flow from Africa to Iberia by sequencing whole genomes from four human remains from northern Portugal and southern Spain dated around 4000 years BP (from the Middle Neolithic to the Bronze Age). We found one of them to carry an unequivocal sub-Saharan mitogenome of most probably West or West-Central African origin, to our knowledge never reported before in prehistoric remains outside Africa. Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. We interpret this result as evidence of an early migration process from Africa into the Iberian Peninsula through a western route, possibly across the Strait of Gibraltar."

    If correct, it means that once again the programs purporting to date admixture seem to pick up only the most recent event.


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    Very interesting


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Very interesting

    How weird these admixture charts. Where is all the green of CHG or Iran Neolithic in the LNBA steppe? They show some Anatolian blue, Levantine puple even, but almost no green CHG. How is that so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    How weird these admixture charts. Where is all the green of CHG or Iran Neolithic in the LNBA steppe? They show some Anatolian blue, Levantine puple even, but almost no green CHG. How is that so?
    ??
    It seems they made a 'steppe' component with the most of HG and CHG/Iran, putting the remnant of CHG/Iran in the Anatolian component???

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    yes, very interesting, now as the steppe autosomal in COV20126 is linked to African mt DNA I must admit that the steppe theory is right... only to change the Pontic steppe by the Sahel one!
    ;)

    just irony, realy I need much to deal with Reich fans
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    yes, very interesting, now as the steppe autosomal in COV20126 is linked to African mt DNA I must admit that the steppe theory is right... only to change the Pontic steppe by the Sahel one!
    ;)

    just irony, realy I need much to deal with Reich fans
    There is no "steppe" in that sample: it's typical Iberian Middle Neolithic/Chalcolithic.

    Plus, since you like irony: what a surprise if mtDna and yDna in a sample should come from different migrations from different time periods. That would overturn all modern population genetics! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    yes, very interesting, now as the steppe autosomal in COV20126 is linked to African mt DNA I must admit that the steppe theory is right... only to change the Pontic steppe by the Sahel one!
    ;)

    just irony, realy I need much to deal with Reich fans
    See just like i said in another thread, you are quoting Steppe or IE's without even being it the matter of the subject...

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    quite weird, at K7 neither steppe nor BB / CWC display CHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    quite weird, at K7 neither steppe nor BB / CWC display CHG
    What do you mean, I swear BB has CHG, and CWC definitely has quite a lot of it. Is that what this paper says?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What do you mean, I swear BB has CHG, and CWC definitely has quite a lot of it. Is that what this paper says?
    at K6 the green CHG is present in steppe and CWC, at K7 the green which is 2/3 in CHG disappears in such pops, weird, but to me ok as it goes for my first bet about IE from Kievan Rus.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    at K6 the green CHG is present in steppe and CWC, at K7 the green which is 2/3 in CHG disappears in such pops, weird, but to me ok as it goes for my first bet about IE from Kievan Rus.
    very weird
    at K=7 the CHG splits in 2 components, and only one of them is in steppe

    I guess this is one of the flaws of K admixture, which splits into different components depending on what populations are compared in the mix

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    very weird
    at K=7 the CHG splits in 2 components, and only one of them is in steppe

    I guess this is one of the flaws of K admixture, which splits into different components depending on what populations are compared in the mix
    It's what I find unpleasant since some studies: inconsistance of admixtures runs from survey to survey. Impossibility to compare quietly. Aside IBD what is of worth?

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    Alain Affelou:

    The WHG (orange) and Anatolian Neolithic (blue) are the major genome components in all our four Iberian samples, although at K = 7, a component (pink) associated with the Russian Steppes, is already visible in COV20126.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    None at K6, at K7 the tiniest smidgeon of "steppe".

    All as expected I would say...a late, gradual entrance into Iberia.

    It doesn't matter whether it's a big lab or a small one, international/American, or Spanish. The narrative is consistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    None at K6, at K7 the tiniest smidgeon of "steppe".

    All as expected I would say...a late, gradual entrance into Iberia.

    It doesn't matter whether it's a big lab or a small one, international/American, or Spanish. The narrative is consistent.
    at K7 there is a diluted but clear signal of steppe in BA Iberia which wasn't there in MN/Chl Iberia
    it has to do with the R1b-P312 expansion in Europe, which was not accompanied by any specific mtDNA : they took local wives along the way of their expansion

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    if you accept K7 then you must accept that Iran Neolithic and Anatolia Chalco had already been invaded by Yamnayans before they popped up in the steppes... weird again?

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    I must be blind but where exactly this sentence " Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. " Is shown into the admixture chart?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I must be blind but where exactly this sentence " Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. " Is shown into the admixture chart?
    it's not in the PCA, nor in K6 or K7
    it is only detectable with D- and f3-statistics

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's not in the PCA, nor in K6 or K7
    it is only detectable with D- and f3-statistics
    And do we know what kind of sub-saharian ancestry did they found, what was the prehistoric proxy for it Mota, Nachikufu? Or is it modern SSA ancestry? Also why they express specifically an emphasis on SSA ancestry and not African one in general? Hard time to imagine that individual in prehistoric Spain with SSA ancestry, didn't have North African ancestry too no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's not in the PCA, nor in K6 or K7
    it is only detectable with D- and f3-statistics
    Then how can they define that as small but significant Subsaharan ancestry. Significant? It looks like some tiny residual ancestry picked up by Neolithic North Africans possibly related to the Cardial Ware in the southern Mediterranean coast, which also extended to/from Iberia. But I fail to see anything significant about those results. It happened, but apparently without major or even minor but notable impact.

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    Even as they dont find SSA admixture in the individual with African mtDNA they downgrade other samples till get such admixture... but the guy is so problematic that he dont display it even so.
    :)

    For these programs I'm getting the impression that behave like the best Marx bro.

    Attachment 10645

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    SSA proxies were ancient South Africans: Ballito Bay (Khoisan) and Iron Age (Bantu), both gave (barely) significant D stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    SSA proxies were ancient South Africans: Ballito Bay (Khoisan) and Iron Age (Bantu), both gave (barely) significant D stats.
    how old is the Ballito Bay (Khoisan)?
    were they herders or HG?

    domesticated animals arrived in S.-Africa ca 2 ka through contact with herders from PPNB Levantine descent

    Mota or the Malawi HG would have been a better reference to compare against

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how old is the Ballito Bay (Khoisan)?
    were they herders or HG?

    domesticated animals arrived in S.-Africa ca 2 ka through contact with herders from PPNB Levantine descent

    Mota or the Malawi HG would have been a better reference to compare against
    Yes the Malawi HG is Nachikufu.

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    according to Ted Kendal, this is the Y-DNA :
    Ted Kandell is met Max De Plum en 3 anderen.
    19 januari om 21:23
    The new Ancient Iberian Genomes unpublished study, PRJEB29189, has three whole genomes that have high-coverage Y-DNA sequences from 4500-3500 ybp. Vadim, can you add these to the YFull tree?
    No "Steppe" / "Bell Beaker" ancestry in Iberia yet.
    The haplogroups are as follows.
    Who are the "lucky winners" here who match them on the YFull tree?
    A spreadsheet of all the Y SNPs for these ancient Iberian individuals:
    https://docs.google.com/…/1thcQUVLKg...kXD…/edit…
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB29189
    LU339 "partial" I-Y3749:
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3749/
    AMM080/Y4661/FGC7133+
    FGC7139/Y3749-
    COV20126 I-Y34539*:
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y34539/
    LD270 "partial" H-Y20838:
    https://yfull.com/tree/H-Y20838/
    Z19077+
    Z19083+
    Z19118+
    Y21665-
    Y21636-
    Y20840-
    Y20836-
    Y21673-
    Y21633-
    Y21635-
    Y21640-

    it doesn't match the Y-DNA published in the study itself (G2a2b)
    a sloppy job?

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