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Thread: Reconstruction of Ancient British people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I have noticed that myself. Cheddar Man himself, way too dark skin aside, has a Native American-like feel to his face. Some of the Yamnaya reconstructions I have seen, too. Maybe some Amerindian populations still carry some ANE features, but I wonder how that could manifest in WHG, who AFAIK do not have ANE as the EHG did. Maybe it was just a random phenotypic convergence in the northern parts of Eurasia?
    Yes, completely agree. It must be something like that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    But I'm not even disagreeing with you that the skin color is defintiely and suspiciously too dark. I won't get into the discussion of whether this is just unconscious bias or a deliberate choice influenced by modern conceptions of race (or rather their attempt to debunk traditional racial theories), but I just thought you were tremendously insensitive and yes, even if unwillingly, downright racist with your specific "example" of an African-American woman whose remains would be comparable to what you believe the British Neolithic woman looks like. Sorry, but it was just typical negative stereotyping whether it was deliberate or - as I believe - not.

    I don't think she looks African-American at all, only if you mean the "whitest", most European-shifted extreme of the phenotypic spectrum of African-Americans, people that would definitely not be considered black in other countries more used to mixed-race varieties like Brazil (e.g. Halle Berry, Mariah Carey). Her traits are not Negroid, the facial shape, the jaw, the lips, the nose itself (typical Negroid noses are not just flat, they are also short vertically and small laterally, very unlike the British woman's nose), almost everything. Now, if you said she looks a dark-skinned mestizo of Latin América I'd agree with you.

    As I said above, I do believe some WHG-admixed EEF might've looked reasonably dark, but dark like modern Bedouins or Saudis, not like that reconstructed woman, whose skin color looks even darker than that of most Brazilian pardos​ (mixed-race).
    I think people have forgotten or don't wish to acknowledge that if you look at the percentages for depigmentation snps in Anatolian Neolithic people in comparison with samples from, say, the Spanish Neolithic, you can see that the farmers actually "darkened" after admixture with WHG people. It's just the way it is.

    That said, the pigmentation in this "reconstruction" is too dark, and not even a "natural" color.

    As I've also said in other ways, her facial bone structure is not completely "Med" or "gracile med", but definitely shows the WHG which, as we've both agreed, sometimes gives a pseudo-Amerindian gloss to the features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I don't think she looks African-American at all, only if you mean the "whitest", most European-shifted extreme of the phenotypic spectrum of African-Americans, people that would definitely not be considered black in other countries more used to mixed-race varieties like Brazil (e.g. Halle Berry, Mariah Carey). Her traits are not Negroid, the facial shape, the jaw, the lips, the nose itself (typical Negroid noses are not just flat, they are also short vertically and small laterally, very unlike the British woman's nose), almost everything. Now, if you said she looks a dark-skinned mestizo of Latin América I'd agree with you
    A Halle Berry type is what I was thinking, yes. Her mother was white and her father was African American (and thus admixed with West Eurasians anyway). The Amerindian-type influence of WHG ancestry would be a viable explanation (it should have clicked, but then I am very daft) but that only serves to help my point. Many blacks in the Western World, whether Afro-Caribbeans, African Americans or Brazilian blacks are admixed with a range of Native American peoples, be they Cherokee or Taino or whatever else. Perhaps this accounts for the features I have seen in people who are [most clearly and most subtantially] of Negroid ancestry, whatever admixture they may possess. I didn't say she resembled the average black, though admittedly I made it look like I was saying that by generalising as 'Negroid' when what I actually meant was 'more within the range of what we would call 'black' in the modern, colloquial sense'.

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    African Americans have almost no Amerindian. They were all myths, just like all the ones about Anglos having Pocahontas in their family trees.

    The research is there.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289685/



    There can be no fruitful discussions when they're based on misinformation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    A Halle Berry type is what I was thinking, yes. Her mother was white and her father was African American (and thus admixed with West Eurasians anyway).
    Honestly only Anglo-Americans, still not totally cleaned from their "one drop rule" legacy, would consider Halle Berry a black person. lol. Other countries have "multiracial" categories exactly for people like her, who are obviously not truly white and also obviously not truly black. I mean, considering what you just told me, it's totally possible that she's around 65% European, perhaps even more. I would never base my notions of what a Negroid person is based on such a heavily mixed person with less than half of her ancestry deriving from fully Subsaharan African people. Halle Berry is quite Caucasoid in terms of features in my opinion.

    Afro-Brazilians indeed have quite a lot of Native American ancestry (but much more European ancestry, anyway), but I'm not aware that African-Americans have any non-negligible (<2%) Native American ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    African Americans have almost no Amerindian. They were all myths, just like all the ones about Anglos having Pocahontas in their family trees
    'Many' does not mean the same as 'all'

    'Many' does not mean the same as 'most'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Honestly only Anglo-Americans, still not totally cleaned from their "one drop rule" legacy, would consider Halle Berry a black person. lol. Other countries have "multiracial" categories exactly for people like her, who are obviously not truly white and also obviously not truly black. I mean, considering what you just told me, it's totally possible that she's around 65% European, perhaps even more. I would never base my notions of what a Negroid person is based on such a heavily mixed person with less than half of her ancestry deriving from fully Subsaharan African people. Halle Berry is quite Caucasoid in terms of features in my opinion.

    Afro-Brazilians indeed have quite a lot of Native American ancestry (but much more European ancestry, anyway), but I'm not aware that African-Americans have any non-negligible (<2%) Native American ancestry
    Virtually everyone in the Western world would consider Halle Berry black, as indeed does Halle Berry. Her physical features, particularly in the face, would be strongly suggestive of a partial Negroid origin even if we didn't know her father's race.

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    Someone like Halle Berry would fall within the cluster of Caucasoid skeletal variance. There are minor features like the low nasal bridge that make her distinctive. It's a stupid discussion, and people are reacting emotionally.

    Besides the Neolithic woman looks nothing like her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Honestly only Anglo-Americans, still not totally cleaned from their "one drop rule" legacy, would consider Halle Berry a black person. lol. Other countries have "multiracial" categories exactly for people like her, who are obviously not truly white and also obviously not truly black. I mean, considering what you just told me, it's totally possible that she's around 65% European, perhaps even more. I would never base my notions of what a Negroid person is based on such a heavily mixed person with less than half of her ancestry deriving from fully Subsaharan African people. Halle Berry is quite Caucasoid in terms of features in my opinion.

    Afro-Brazilians indeed have quite a lot of Native American ancestry (but much more European ancestry, anyway), but I'm not aware that African-Americans have any non-negligible (<2%) Native American ancestry.
    I completely agree, and as my link proves.

    Halle Berry looks very different now as compared to how she looked in high school.





    The hair has been straightened, and it looks as if she had a nose job. In an ironic touch, the lips may be pumped up. The result is that minus the jaw, she looks basically like a European woman with dark skin.

    Those are the kinds of African American women whom the white media tout as being beautiful "black" women, when they really don't look black at all.

    In some pictures she reminds me of Morena Baccarin:



    The only resemblance between Halle Berry and the Neolithic reconstruction that I can see is in the face shape and the skin color, which in the case of the reconstruction is incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    Virtually everyone in the Western world would consider Halle Berry black, as indeed does Halle Berry. Her physical features, particularly in the face, would be strongly suggestive of a partial Negroid origin even if we didn't know her father's race.
    Halle Berry is just as Negroid (partial Negroid origin) as she is Caucasoid. No, actually she is more of Caucasoid origin than Negroid one. As I said, some cultures just can't get rid of their "one drop rule" times yet. She is "black" in those parts of the world where there is just White vs. Black dichotomy, with no subtlety, so anything that doesn't look fully White is assigned to the generic Black category, whereas, on the contrary, any partial, even minor African-like features are more than enough to classify someone as "Black". Of course she identifies lik that, she's also part of that same social milieu that clings to that black-or-white classification. We know that's all pretty subjective and arbitrary. Halle Berry's phenotype is very mixed, so she won't fit any cluster perfectly. These "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" terms are too broad and incomplete anyway... but I'd describe her present looks as mainly Caucasoid with just some Negroid influences, skin color aside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Wow, that is literally perfection of the Mediterranean phenotype, I can't see how anyone could ever clearly top that - perhaps her lips could be slightly thinner but that's within the realm of debate and more of a personal preference.


    The irony is that she’s from Umbria (the heart of Italy), a land-locked region bordering Tuscany, Lazio, ...

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Halle Berry is just as Negroid (partial Negroid origin) as she is Caucasoid. No, actually she is more of Caucasoid origin than Negroid one. As I said, some cultures just can't get rid of their "one drop rule" times yet. She is "black" in those parts of the world where there is just White vs. Black dichotomy, with no subtlety, so anything that doesn't look fully White is assigned to the generic Black category, whereas, on the contrary, any partial, even minor African-like features are more than enough to classify someone as "Black". Of course she identifies lik that, she's also part of that same social milieu that clings to that black-or-white classification. We know that's all pretty subjective and arbitrary. Halle Berry's phenotype is very mixed, so she won't fit any cluster perfectly. These "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" terms are too broad and incomplete anyway... but I'd describe her present looks as mainly Caucasoid with just some Negroid influences, skin color aside.
    In the UK, and most would never say or directly think this, Halle Berry is a "nice" black, but still not what people would call mixed. A mixed person is between someone like Meghan Markle (who is basically Caucasoid in virtually all her features) and someone with more clearly Negroid features but with that distinctive mixed-race light-caramel skin tone (e.g. below)


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To get back to our British Neolithic woman, where she most resembles Halle Berry (other than in the dark skin they've inexplicably given her) is in her diamond shaped face with it's distinctive high, wide cheekbones.

    That face shape is not rare in Europeans, although I notice it more in East Asians.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Ginnifer Goodwin:


    Michele Williams: her hair is naturally a medium to dark brown.


    Scarlett Johanson:


    Audrey Tautou. The big difference is that she has much larger eyes. Fwiw, she's from the Auvergne/Rhone/Alpes

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The Anglo Saxon looks like a pirate. I would immediately cast him as Captain Hook
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    A lot is maybe the wrong word, but a surprising amount were - at least if you believe Genetiker. The Anglo-Saxon man is also definitely too dark to be a typical Scandinavian, most e.g. Danes have the standard Nordic combination of pale skin and light hair, but there are also darker types like Mads Mikkelsen. Most Danes would be noticeably non-British amongst a small crowd of Brits though, the pigmentation difference is quite large in general. As for the Iron Age one - he definitely passes as Celtic fringe, but on the dark side of the spectrum. But still passable.
    An Anglo Saxon is from NW Germany, this man’s pigmentation, blue eyes salt and pepper dark blond into light brown, looks not weird for that area, not all it’s very common.

    Though his forehead is pretty slope....but I guess the Anglo Saxons were pretty divers.



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    Britain in the end comes to be like a sink of the continent

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    The 'Resident of Roman Britain' woman, reminds me of the female cattle rustler in the Rob Roy film, that starred Liam Neeson.
    To me she looks a bit like Paul McCartney!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Most of those women are half Jewish and not even Alpine Magnon or Cro Magnon lol
    Angela can't classify.

    The gold-standard for phenotypical classification is here, I've no idea how long it took to put together but it's virtually flawless in my view:

    http://humanphenotypes.net

    It's usually easy to tell which phenotype someone broadly belongs to: don't fall into the trap of trying to be overly specific by combining many aspects of different phenotypes. For Europe at least, the main things you want to look at are the outline of the face (e.g. oval, round, triangular etc.) and the form of the nose (e.g. convex, concave, high, fleshy etc.), just with that you can classify 90% of people accurately; for most of the rest of the 10%, you can figure it out by looking at their eye and brow ridge form (this is where Cro-Magnon influence is most clearly seen).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Merkle's so called UK ''American'' side is half Jewish ( her Father is an American Jew like the majority of the British Monarchy who are German Jews) and her Mother is African with some Native or so I have heard. Literally no mention of her being Caucasian or White they just assume so because her Father has light skin. But so does her Mother compared to as some users here densly put ''Negroids''. Which means that like most so called ''African Americans'' she would most likely have some percentages of Dutch and British as well as being African due to the slave trade.

    I can honestly see the English features more in Berry than what I can in Merkle's features. Her Mother looks like a British/German Borreby Nordid mix. Yes I know she ( Halle ) has had plastic surgery but you can tell they're Mother and Daughter.

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015...4467848180.jpg

    And for those of you that are going to say it's all rubbish the Illuminati don't exist blah blah a great Uncle of mine who's a 33 degree Freemason, got Knighted by the Queen ( Scottish Coat of Arms ) can confirm they are alive and do exist, plus they are bleeding the tax payers in this country who actually work for a living dry. At least Americans don't have that just the Fed Reserve.
    How is the Royal Family Jewish? I don't see how you can be THAT dumb, really. Is Prince Philip a German Jew to you?!

    And whether or not you believe in a shadow government (so to speak), which I do, there is no such thing as the Illuminati in the sense that you imagine it, only those who dictate the important points of foreign policy for what they see as bettering the world (in my opinion at least). You have a Cluster A personality disorder, textbook case: Google it.

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    Please another movie more of Elisabeth l and María Tudor. Nooooooooooo, the world can not take it anymore. There are dozens of countries, there are wonderful stories of kings and queens of many countries. By when another of Robin Hood, for when another of Vikings. What do they want? Do you think that this overdose of British History in Hollywood productions is something for the world public? I'm not going to see that movie.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To get back to our British Neolithic woman, where she most resembles Halle Berry (other than in the dark skin they've inexplicably given her) is in her diamond shaped face with it's distinctive high, wide cheekbones.

    That face shape is not rare in Europeans, although I notice it more in East Asians.
    Those cheekbones are definitely the cold adaptation from her WHG ancestry showing. Compare with Neolithic Levantines who convenienty plastered the skulls of their dead so we don't have to rely on reconstructions:



    Much closer to the fine features of slender modern European variants like Mediterranean/Nordic/Dinaric etc. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, a lot of the Neolithic Brits weren't blonde. Do you just decide to make things up instead of doing the research?

    I don't want to see you insisting without a link to a paper which finds that. Am I clear?

    I'll grant you that Roman Era Briton is an Arya type, but Ango-Saxon man looks right to me: Danish, Scandinavian like, whereas the handsome Iron Age one looks "Celtic fringe".
    What the heck is an Arya type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Halle Berry is just as Negroid (partial Negroid origin) as she is Caucasoid. No, actually she is more of Caucasoid origin than Negroid one. As I said, some cultures just can't get rid of their "one drop rule" times yet. She is "black" in those parts of the world where there is just White vs. Black dichotomy, with no subtlety, so anything that doesn't look fully White is assigned to the generic Black category, whereas, on the contrary, any partial, even minor African-like features are more than enough to classify someone as "Black". Of course she identifies lik that, she's also part of that same social milieu that clings to that black-or-white classification. We know that's all pretty subjective and arbitrary. Halle Berry's phenotype is very mixed, so she won't fit any cluster perfectly. These "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" terms are too broad and incomplete anyway... but I'd describe her present looks as mainly Caucasoid with just some Negroid influences, skin color aside.
    This is not just how it works. Typical exemple : Obama is a Mulato, but he consider himself as just Black. So if the world cannot call him Black but he can himself, what is the point? You are right by saying its highly subjective and arbitrary, but this is the point of the world and the " diversity ". I decide what i consider a thing, and this thing ( if he cans ) can decide what he consider himself. I decide to consider Halle Berry as Black, whatever % of European she is, or whatever her facial characteristic. It's once again an arbitrary and subjective point, i like to hierarchised world in different boxes, other peoples dont care. This is about personnal subtilities, not about being right or wrong.

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    The best of all is the Anglo-Saxon mustache. The Bell Beaker one somehow looks what i would imagine of some CWC individuals. The neolithic British women looks fancy, either some British people didn't learn about Anatolian and Balkans neolithic people pigmentation, or either she is supposed to be highly Cheddar Man-like. Whoever she cleary is depicted as lightly African, wich most of modern exemples posted totally do not look like. That's highly irrelevent to post pictures of dark haired and eyed British people to say " hey look they have dark features, they are not blonde, it's pretty much like this neolithic woman ".

    Edit: Actually, looking closer and interestingly, the neolithic woman pigmentation apart, somehow looks like some Albanian woman. The straight frontal and the eyes shape somehow reminds me of something from Albania.

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    Halle Berry when it represents calm characters it is white and when it is angry and it is stressed it is black. It is the perception that I have. In the film that depicts a mother who persecutes the kidnappers of her son, she is black all the time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Halle Berry when it represents calm characters it is white and when it is angry and it is stressed it is black. It is the perception that I have. In the film that depicts a mother who persecutes the kidnappers of her son, she is black all the time.
    Isn't that kind of racist

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