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Thread: Reconstruction of Ancient British people

  1. #101
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Reconstruction of Ancient British people



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    This Anglo-Saxon reconstruction seems to me a big mess. Point. He doesn't evocate any mean anglo-saxon type to me, either 'nordic'like or 'nordic+cromagnoid' who was the basis of Anglo-Saxons, whatever the auDNA composition of 'nordic' hich say little about the genesis of this type surely come from North-North-East Europe (6000/5000 BC?)
    May be he doesn’t look like a photo in a Coon book, but that doesn’t make it not correct. I guess the re were not one size fits all Anglo Saxons in the delivery.....When this person walked trough the streets of Bremen he would be probably seen as a seventies adapt or escaped from Asterix and Obelix the movie.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I meant, BB inform us that Brachycephaly was already in continental europe by the Chalcolithic. About Steppe ancestry, i hate it, because i dont understand it. How exactly do you calculate Steppe ancestry ( with EHG included )? How can Steppe ancestry be without EHG? How do you exactly can separate Steppe ancestry, with additional EHG or CHG?
    I didn't say there is a separate steppe ancestry without EHG. What I said is that EHG seems to have increased together with the introgression of BA steppe-related ancestry in Bronze Age populations like BB and CWC, but I don't see why the presence of ANE via EHG in the BB would indicate that it was present since the Chalcolithic. Do you think the BB were formed in the Chalcolithic, not early BA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I didn't say there is a separate steppe ancestry without EHG. What I said is that EHG seems to have increased together with the introgression of BA steppe-related ancestry in Bronze Age populations like BB and CWC, but I don't see why the presence of ANE via EHG in the BB would indicate that it was present since the Chalcolithic. Do you think the BB were formed in the Chalcolithic, not early BA?
    I didn't say anything about what you said. What i said is, how do they deconstructe ancestry to know for exemple how Steppe ancestry, wich is roughly 50/50 ( depending on the sample ) EHG + CHG, how do they calculate extra CHG or EHG, how do they know ( exp ). This CHG is new, regarding of the already present CHG in Steppe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    May be he doesn’t look like a photo in a Coon book, but that doesn’t make it not correct. I guess the re were not one size fits all Anglo Saxons in the delivery.....When this person walked trough the streets of Bremen he would be probably seen as a seventies adapt or escaped from Asterix and Obelix the movie.....
    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
    Agree in fact.
    I said a 'mess' (heavy word) but I thought in the nose and soft flesh parts of the reconstruction, which is full of imagination, I think. Concerning bones, this type shows strong northern HG's of Scandinavia Mesolitic, where dominated at this time the 'brnn'like features, with maybe shorter and broader faces than true ancient 'brnn'. So this man is not impossible among Anglo-Saxons and is still found in North today; my point was he is absolutely not typical of the Anglo-Saxons most common type of the time, as I think I've read in some forumer 's post.
    BTW these features can be found also in Southern Europe at low level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post

    This admixture charts doesn't correspond at all to what I saw in another study: all this 'Iran neol' in GAC!!!
    Even speaking of diverse CWC, it destroys all what I read about them: here they have LESS 'Iran' (I suppose CHGlike) than GAC!!! All these inadequacies between different studies (if "serious" studies) ruin the precision we could expect from the auDNA studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I didn't say there is a separate steppe ancestry without EHG. What I said is that EHG seems to have increased together with the introgression of BA steppe-related ancestry in Bronze Age populations like BB and CWC, but I don't see why the presence of ANE via EHG in the BB would indicate that it was present since the Chalcolithic. Do you think the BB were formed in the Chalcolithic, not early BA?
    It depends totally on what we call BB's... I'm not sure at all first BB pottery makers were these people of Northern or Central Europe we called BB's too after 2500 BC; but whatever the case, they were formed since Chalco at least

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    We do not. One of the reason is that we dont have that much Craniometrics datas compared to ancestral components datas for exemple. We do not need facial reconstructions of individuals to know if people are brachycephalic or meso, dolicho. We need intact craniums. The reason to link it with ANE, is because it's the only real ancestral component that links East Asia and West Asia in prehistoric human migrations. All modern people with high % of brachycephalic individuals ( Siberians, Turks-Mongols, East Asians, Southeast Asians, Native Americans, so basically roughly Mongoloids ) are a rumble of East Asian and ANE ancestry with minor other ancestries and the places that we know in western eurasia ANE ancestry irradiated in ( Eastern Europe, Iran, Caucasus ), also shows high levels of brachycephalic individuals and probably irradiated in peripheric areas such as Northern, Central, Western Europe for Eastern Europe. Southeast Europe, Anatolia, Armenia, roughly Middle-East for Caucasus. And roughly Middle-East and India for Iran. There could have been different migrations bringing Brachycephaly in places it wasn't common. Exemple: In Late Paleolithic, ANE individuals could have bring Brachycephaly in Eastern Europe without being fixed in a whole population ( meaning some people were still dolicocephalic and mesocephalic, while others were brachycephalic ). But we also know that Eastern Europe suffered a second wave of ANE ancestry, called WSHG ( western siberian hunter gatherers ) and an ancestry more leaning towards East Asian ancestry labeled Baikal_Neolithic sometimes near the transition between Neolithic and Chalcolithic. So with huge craniometric datas from Mesolithic Eastern Europe ( Ukraine_HG's, Baltic_HG's, Balkans_HG's ) we could already deduce if the physical characteristic came from the 1st or the 2nd ANE wave. But more, Eastern Europe also could had a 3rd ANE/East Asian introgression in the Scythian era, were Scythians were highly mobile in the Western and Central-Eastern Eurasian Plain and could have bring this ancestry in Eastern Europe, and from there the Thraco-Cimmerian migration from the Danubian Plain to Central Europe too. Also the more documented 4th and 5th introgression wich were the Huns ( or early Turkish people in general ) and the Mongols. Plus between the 2nd ( or maybe with the 2nd itself ) and the 3rd introgression, there was a migration of Siberians people that would have bring the Uralic languages at some point wich would also bring ANE/East Asian ancestry to Europe. It makes a lot of East Asian ancestry introgression into Europe right? Now anatomy is not always linked with ancestry movements, but it still can give us a clue.

    I think it was James Mallory who said in one of his books that the Dnieper Rapids in Ukraine was in the Mesolithic the warzone between 3 peoples, 1 dolicocephalic and 2 brachycephalic. But i dont know at all if this is backed up by craniometrical facts.
    a lot of speculation on a very large scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Nordicist!
    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum[/QUOTE]

    I suppose you are kidding!
    we are not even sure that this familial type I call 'nordic' is of a deep in time Northern Europe origin; maybe an adaptative type where a lot of 'mediter' by geographical origin mixed with some HG elements before drift and selection. Interesting question (I like this) but with not too easy answer.
    ATW the most of Anglo-Saxons of ancient Britain were easily distinguished from BB's and Celts. This reconstructed guy (with some fancy concerning nose and flesh) is a POSSIBLE Anglo-Saxon, but not a TYPICAL or MEAN one.

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    The Neolithic woman of Britain could pass for a 'mediterranean' in the broad sense: her cheekbones show something that could be a HG remnant, as well from Natufian than from Western Europe Hg's; maybe jutting a bit too forwards??? But her jaw shows the gracilisation very common among almost all 'mediter' pops. And the excess of cheekbones breadth compared to jaw breadth occur very often among small 'mediter' types, perhaps coming from mixture or ancestral traits nit completley erased? Concerning pigmentation i don't know: if it was a half British HG's heritage?
    The nose? some fancy maybe here again because if the length could be accurate it seems me a bit too fleshy, almost 'semitic'like; nothing impossible but how could they know? But I see no typical SSA influence in the bones. More angles would be good but...

    &: aside: I read someone thinking the two 'Teviec' women were brachy: they were not, only meso-dolichocephalic or sub-mesocehpalic if we are speaking of the two I know. If I recall well, the serie was subdolicho.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Bell Beaker man.


    And his son has changed fashion.
    Can you be rational?!
    It is only a link found with Google's "Visually similar images"! Do you understand this?...

    A few days ago, I put a link trying to discuss a Geni.com opinion, in I2 forum. After a single negative vote, my reputation dropped almost 100 points! I wondered how this is possible?! I asked but I did not get a glimpse! Maciamo did not answer anything ... What happens here?!
    Last edited by gidai; 05-02-19 at 10:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    They're all Vestonice cluster. Kostenki 14 is the weirdo, and Kostenki 12 is closer to Sungir than to Kostenki 14. K14 is closest to the HG from South Italy.

    I think the younger Kostenki is a Sungir migrant.
    But i actually just found a Twitter discussion between Lazaridis and Skoglund under " Upper Paleolithic Sunghir samples related to Kostenki and Vestonice cluster ".

    Pontus says: No affinity to Mal'ta, you win the bet.

    Iosif says: Good to know, I was just going to check the wall because I'd forgotten what my prediction was, lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    This admixture charts doesn't correspond at all to what I saw in another study: all this 'Iran neol' in GAC!!!
    Even speaking of diverse CWC, it destroys all what I read about them: here they have LESS 'Iran' (I suppose CHGlike) than GAC!!! All these inadequacies between different studies (if "serious" studies) ruin the precision we could expect from the auDNA studies.
    It's not likely to be real Iran_N ancestry. What this supervised admixture run is picking up appears to be additional East Eurasian admixture. I believe Anatolia_N can be modelled as Dzudzuana + Tianyuan/Onge/Han.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But i actually just found a Twitter discussion between Lazaridis and Skoglund under " Upper Paleolithic Sunghir samples related to Kostenki and Vestonice cluster ".

    Pontus says: No affinity to Mal'ta, you win the bet.

    Iosif says: Good to know, I was just going to check the wall because I'd forgotten what my prediction was, lol
    Yeah, Sungir has no East Eurasian ancestry. ANE must have coalesced in the east. It's interesting that even the North-Eastern Siberians were overwhelmingly West Eurasian. East Eurasians could have been confined to a relatively small area in the Upper Paleolithic.

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    The Neolithic girl or woman could possibly be a Magnelanian father in the sense of an ancestor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It's not likely to be real Iran_N ancestry. What this supervised admixture run is picking up appears to be additional East Eurasian admixture. I believe Anatolia_N can be modelled as Dzudzuana + Tianyuan/Onge/Han.
    Didn't the Dzudzuana >>> ANF transition get more WHG-like ancestry along the way, remaining pretty close overall? What study claimed ANF to have significant East Eurasian admixture? I think what may happen there is just that WHG, Iran_Neo and Levant_Neo are not perfect proxies for ANF at all, forming a kind of intermediate population between those 3 clusters, and that's why the algorithm, constrained by the few options available, shows them to be a mix of the 3 even if it's not the best representation of their actual genetic makeup (Levant_Neo could have too much North African, Iran_Neo too much South and East Eurasian, and so on).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What are you talking about, I was comparing the Anglo-Saxon reconstruction to modern Danes to show why he's too dark (as the Anglo-Saxons surely resembled modern Danes). Do you really suggest I don't know the history of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes? And 10% blondism (I thought it was more but I'll go with your figure) is still higher than would be expected from a Sardinian-like population, there's no way 10% of Sardinians are blonde - that was my point, the top reconstruction was way too dark, as it should be at least as dark as Sardinians if not lighter.

    Calm down, everything is simpler than it looks. First, you claim Wikipedia is run by Nordicists. Then, you doubt that I'm actually Jewish. Now, that I'm spreading propaganda about pigmentation? I don't even think the Bell Beakers were majority blonde, and definitely not the Neolithic population of Britain.
    I can say this reconstruction has nothing unaccurate concerning head hair (and skin hue) because it concerns only ONE person! Nobody if serious could ever believe ALL DANES and SAXONS were 'blond' (light blond for me), others as today, as numerous, were very dark blond or "golden very light brown" (cannot be confused with light brown), and I think about 30% were between light brown and middle brown, with someones darker - but this man here is pictured as middle or light brown haired, so NOT DARK at all.
    But the point is not in the hue in fact but in that you discard an individual reconstruction basing yourself on an TOO FAR EXTENDED STEREOTYPE.

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    &: aside: I read someone thinking the two 'Teviec' women were brachy: they were not, only meso-dolichocephalic or sub-
    mesocehpalic if we are speaking of the two I know. If I recall well, the serie was subdolicho.[/QUOTE]

    cephalic index is an horizontal index: maximum weight of skull / maximum breadth of skull: precious but unsufficient feature.
    very oftne we are abused when we take a frontal look of a person's face and skull (when we can see the most of this skull!):
    1- a globular and broad forehead gives the impression of a more brachycephalic skull, but it does not give us the maximum breadth of the head -
    2- true modern 'dinarics' seem only mesocephalic, even if their forehead seems a bit broead compared to the inferior face - it's because their horizontal skull dimensions are small; they gain more volume through having an higher skull compared to typical 'alpin' types, but horizontally their skulls are smaller, surprising for a so tall type - this does not exclude they had often a C.I. of 90 i the 50's -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I read someone thinking the two 'Teviec' women were brachy: they were not, only meso-dolichocephalic or sub-
    mesocehpalic if we are speaking of the two I know. If I recall well, the serie was subdolicho.
    cephalic index is an horizontal index: maximum weight of skull / maximum breadth of skull: precious but unsufficient feature.
    very oftne we are abused when we take a frontal look of a person's face and skull (when we can see the most of this skull!):
    1- a globular and broad forehead gives the impression of a more brachycephalic skull, but it does not give us the maximum breadth of the head -
    2- true modern 'dinarics' seem only mesocephalic, even if their forehead seems a bit broead compared to the inferior face - it's because their horizontal skull dimensions are small; they gain more volume through having an higher skull compared to typical 'alpin' types, but horizontally their skulls are smaller, surprising for a so tall type - this does not exclude they had often a C.I. of 90 i the 50's[/QUOTE]

    Yes that's actually true. I tried to found a profile picture, and they have a big occiput. From some side it always makes me think that they were brachycephalic. So Beakers are still the oldest Brachycephals we have in continental europe? And for the matter, yes i know pretty much how cephalic index is calculate, i just always found that they were brachcycephalic, i just didn't have the good angle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    cephalic index is an horizontal index: maximum weight of skull / maximum breadth of skull: precious but unsufficient feature.
    very oftne we are abused when we take a frontal look of a person's face and skull (when we can see the most of this skull!):
    1- a globular and broad forehead gives the impression of a more brachycephalic skull, but it does not give us the maximum breadth of the head -
    2- true modern 'dinarics' seem only mesocephalic, even if their forehead seems a bit broead compared to the inferior face - it's because their horizontal skull dimensions are small; they gain more volume through having an higher skull compared to typical 'alpin' types, but horizontally their skulls are smaller, surprising for a so tall type - this does not exclude they had often a C.I. of 90 i the 50's
    Yes that's actually true. I tried to found a profile picture, and they have a big occiput. From some side it always makes me think that they were brachycephalic. So Beakers are still the oldest Brachycephals we have in continental europe? And for the matter, yes i know pretty much how cephalic index is calculate, i just always found that they were brachcycephalic, i just didn't have the good angle.[/QUOTE]

    I made a general answer, I was not thinking yourself ignored that. It was just a sort of introduction concerning 'dinarics' and mistaking impressions I have myself been victim of them, sometimes.

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    Some kind of disorder in the quoting of diverse posts here. The answer is mixed with the initial post. Not lethal I think.

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    Why do people mostly focus on Europeans and how they havelighter skin tones.
    Don’t the East Asians also have relatively lighter skintones too.What is their allele frequencyfor lighter skin, is it the same as Europeans? Maybe, God forbid we don’t yetknow everything about what causes light or darker skin tones.

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    Points: 5,852, Level: 22
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 198
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Remund View Post
    Why do people mostly focus on Europeans and how they havelighter skin tones.
    Don’t the East Asians also have relatively lighter skintones too.What is their allele frequencyfor lighter skin, is it the same as Europeans? Maybe, God forbid we don’t yetknow everything about what causes light or darker skin tones.
    Well it's Eu(rope)pedia, Europeans interested mainly into European stuffs 'n' things. So sounds very normal if you are thinking about it. About a general perspective i'm not really sure about East Asians, but the thing is. If you take the overall East Asians people ( Mongoloids ), Light Skins seems to be founder effects in regional peoples, Hans ethnic from China for exemple have a lot of Light Skinned peoples, but not all Chinese ethnics are equals into it. Also some Japanese or Koreans are Light Skinned, while others are more darker. For exemple, Pheomelanin, wich gives the Gold/Red pigmentation like Red Hairs and Freckles, are found in Europeans, but also Native Americans ( easily seen in reddish cheeks ) and East Asians. The SLC24A5 gene that plays role into the Light Skin of Europeans is " Fixed " among us, wich means, virtually all Europeans have it compare of the rest of the world.

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