Reconstruction of Ancient British people

Yeah, their allele frequency for rs16891982 was much lower than any modern European population I've seen. Sardinians in ALFRED have like 70% of the derived allele where British Neolithic has 25%, which is comparable to Bedouin or Pashtun. Most Europeans have 90% plus.
I had the same feeling as Ygorcs, her skin colour doesn't look like any real skin colour I can think of.
That's because some people fail to understand that they aren't looking at the original Anatolian Farmers. That girl had darker complexion probably because she partly descended from a local WHG ancestor not too far ago.
It's the same as with the GAC samples who had a high incidence of blue eyes and blondism. That's again due to mixing and in their case it was with EHG groups. However GAC was still leading a Farmer style of life.
 
That's because some people fail to understand that they aren't looking at the original Anatolian Farmers. That girl had darker complexion probably because she partly descended from a local WHG ancestor not too far ago.
It's the same as with the GAC samples who had a high incidence of blue eyes and blondism. That's again due to mixing and in their case it was with EHG groups. However GAC was still leading a Farmer style of life.

GAC seem to have been lighter than both EHG and SHG.
 
GAC seem to have been lighter than both EHG and SHG.

I haven't looked at the data for a long time, but my recollection was that perhaps a few SHG in their far northern locale had a few blonde, blue-eyed and fair skinned people, but the EHG themselves were fair skinned, but mostly brown haired and eyed? Is there data to the contrary?

Also, what were the more eastern populations known to contribute to GAC? What do the papers say about the pigmentation of those people?

As I mentioned in the first post, it's unclear to me whether these reconstructions were based on the individual snps of the individual samples or the general pigmentation information about the various eras. For example, Bell Beakers did have lighter skin on average than British Neolithic, but Genetiker's percentage of blue eyed blondes for them is less than 25%, and as I also said, I've never seen any statement from him as to whether he uses a recognized forensic program. Do you have the academic results for GAC handy? I don't remember those positing all these blue eyed blondes.

So much information has come out, and so many people have made pronouncements which are time consuming to fact check that it's all gotten somewhat confusing. Mathiesen is also confusing to use because he lumped together WHG, SHG and EHG to get his "HG" figure. That isn't helpful at all.
 
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Definitely the great-great-... Grandfather of Wayne Rooney.
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Also the woman from the Roman Period looks very British to me.

The pictures don't show up. If you just post the link that would be helpful.

I just remembered Spitalfields Woman, a Roman woman buried in Britain.

"In 1999, archaeologists were excavating a medieval graveyard when they found an enigmatic woman. Located at Spitalfields outside the Roman city of Londinium, her case was as unique as it was unexpected.An enormous stone sarcophagus contained a lead casket decorated with scallops. At the very heart were the bones, once dressed in gold-embroidered silk. The woman’s affluence and artifacts placed her death at around AD 350. Beyond that, little else was certain.
Two things suggested that she followed an Eastern mystery cult. Several arose during the fourth century, including Christianity. The scallop shell was a Christian symbol, but researchers believe that the woman chose another, somewhat merrier cult.[5]
The second religious connection was a flask. The glass item resembled another found in a French burial, which had contained wine. Around this time, London’s Temple of Mithras belonged to Bacchus, the god of wine.
Analysis of her teeth showed that she was not native to Britain. The theory that she hailed from France or Spain left her facial reconstruction with distinctive dark looks. Dental isotopes eventually revealed the woman as the only verified person from Roman Britain born in Rome."

They really should redo the reconstruction now that better tools are available.

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I think she looks a bit like the British Neolithic woman only fairer.

 
I haven't looked at the data for a long time, but my recollection was that perhaps a few SHG in their far northern locale had a few blonde, blue-eyed and fair skinned people, but the EHG themselves were fair skinned, but mostly brown haired and eyed? Is there data to the contrary?

Also, what were the more eastern populations known to contribute to GAC? What do the papers say about the pigmentation of those people?

As I mentioned in the first post, it's unclear to me whether these reconstructions were based on the individual snps of the individual samples or the general pigmentation information about the various eras. For example, Bell Beakers did have lighter skin on average than British Neolithic, but Genetiker's percentage of blue eyed blondes for them is less than 25%, and as I also said, I've never seen any statement from him as to whether he uses a recognized forensic program. Do you have the academic results for GAC handy? I don't remember those positing all these blue eyed blondes.

So much information has come out, and so many people have made pronouncements which are time consuming to fact check that it's all gotten somewhat confusing. Mathiesen is also confusing to use because he lumped together WHG, SHG and EHG to get his "HG" figure. That isn't helpful at all.

I'm going by Genetiker. He tests for the major SNPs, so while his predictions might not be the most accurate the trends can be seen. See for example: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/phenotype-snps-from-neolithic-central-asia-minor/

The SHG were about as light as the farmers, the EHG were darker on average as expected. Pretty sure some of the farmers in Anatolia could have been blond too.

There's no significant EHG admixture in GAC, I'm not sure where he got that from.

ancestry-proportions-poland.png
 
From Wiki :

"The derived allele of KITLG associated with blond hair in modern Europeans is present in several individuals of the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) lineage, and is recorded in Mesolithic Eastern Europe as associated with the Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) lineage derived from ANE. The earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE Afontova Gora 3 individual, dated to 14,700 years ago."

"The hair color gene MC1R has at least seven variants in Europe, giving the continent a wide range of hair and eye shades. Based on a genetic research carried out at three Japanese universities, the date of the genetic mutation that resulted in blond hair in Europe has been isolated to about 11,000 years ago during the last ice age."

"A 2014 study reported seven Mesolithic hunter-gatherers found at Motala, southern Sweden, dated to 7,700 years ago, as the earliest known individuals in whom the modern Scandinavian phenotype, combining light skin, blue eyes and blond hair, was combined. These individuals had light skin gene alleles in SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, and HERC2/OCA2 alleles associated with blue eyes (also contributes to lighter skin and blond hair). Light pigmentation traits had thus already existed in pre-Indo-European Europeans, since at least the later Mesolithic. Later individuals with Yamnaya ancestry, by contrast, were predominantly dark-eyed (brown), dark-haired and had a skin colour that was moderately light, though somewhat darker than that of the average modern European."

I think the above-mentioned individuals with fair hair probably had fair skin too. The dark-skinned Cheddar man lived ca 9100 BP. The farmers are supposed to have been fair-skinned as well. Even when mixed with darker HGs, I doubt by 5600 BC, the Neolithic British lady in the picture would have been as dark-skinned as her reconstruction.
 
The Roman Woman probably could have looked like Monica Bellucci.


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bdc1d7c00c974dd2682c9bbdf04ca12a.png
 

Wow, that is literally perfection of the Mediterranean phenotype, I can't see how anyone could ever clearly top that - perhaps her lips could be slightly thinner but that's within the realm of debate and more of a personal preference.

29b8866d3dbf85fd1b4905e545a5d725.jpg
 
I'm going by Genetiker. He tests for the major SNPs, so while his predictions might not be the most accurate the trends can be seen. See for example: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/phenotype-snps-from-neolithic-central-asia-minor/

The SHG were about as light as the farmers, the EHG were darker on average as expected. Pretty sure some of the farmers in Anatolia could have been blond too.

There's no significant EHG admixture in GAC, I'm not sure where he got that from.

ancestry-proportions-poland.png

Yeah, I don't get that about GAC either. These were European farmers. It's before the addition of steppe ancestry. Unless he means local hunter-gatherer ancestry.

We have data about the hunter-gatherers in the Danube Basin including Lepinski Vir:

"We investigated a number of phenotypic traits in our ancient samples. All three Romanian Mesolithic individuals were predicted to have dark hair and brown eyes, whereas the Eneolithic individual was predicted to have dark hair and light eye pigmentation (Figure S2 and Table S3). Based on the presence of the ancestral forms of both SLC45A2 (rs1426654) and SLC24A5 (rs16891982), two genes that were found to have gone through strong positive selection for skin depigmentation in the ancestors of modern Europeans, the three Romanian Mesolithic individuals were predicted to have had dark skin pigmentation. The Eneolithic individual most likely had a lighter skin tone, as it was homozygous for the derived version of SLC45A2 and heterozygous for the derived version of SLC24A5. Although an increase in the frequencies of these variants is generally associated with the Neolithic, it should be noted that they were already present at low frequency among Scandinavian hunter-gatherers [8], and a copy of the derived variant of SLC45A2 was also present in our late Spanish Mesolithic sample, Canes1_Meso. All individuals investigated were unlikely to be able to digest lactose as adults, as they all carried ancestral alleles at two key positions in the gene MCM6 (rs4988235 and rs182549)."

"Paleogenomic Evidence for Multi-generational Mixing between Neolithic Farmers and Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers in the Lower Danube Basin"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217305596

As for Ukrainian samples, I don't have time right now to hunt them down in academic papers, but even Genetiker doesn't find blue eyed blondes anywhere in Ukrainian Mesolithic and Neolithic.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

Whatever happened with Globular Amphora, their lighter pigmentation has nothing to do with Yamnaya or with local or surrounding hunter-gatherers.
 
The Roman Woman probably could have looked like Monica Bellucci.


Photo-16-09-2016-10-47-10-1024x1024.jpg



bdc1d7c00c974dd2682c9bbdf04ca12a.png

Bellucci's face is a longer oval, but yes, it's that type.

This is another reconstruction of a Roman woman: face is both longer and with a squarer jaw and slightly higher cheekbones. She's a reconstruction of a victim from Pompeii called "Bella Donna".


zM8Jo2Y.png


I think the reconstructions are pretty accurate if we look at the contemporaneous artwork of the period.

rome-delicate-painting-of-Queen-Lydia.jpg


history-lists-historys-great-romantics-sappho-152190556.jpg



Of course, they all weren't so lovely, or Mediterranean looking, for that matter. This is Domitila Longina, wife and empress to Domitian. She may have helped plot his assassination. I have no doubt she would have been capable of it. :)

Phzr4e8.png
 
Neolithic woman from Britain: except for too dark skin, she just looks like a pretty British woman to me. Unless these are individual results, she's too dark for British Neolithic

No, Angela, she doesn't look like a British woman. They have made her look distinctly negroid, or at least 'mixed race', with flared nostrils and [it looks like] diastema too. If they had been attempting to reconstruct the face of a down-and-out from Detroit who had been murdered by her pimp, I'd think it a lot more accurate.

I'll grant you that Roman Era Briton is an Arya type, but Ango-Saxon man looks right to me: Danish, Scandinavian like


Anglo-Saxons were ethnically and linguistically akin to the modern Dutch. Yes, some of them lived in Jutland, and at that time the Danes were living in Zealand and the surrounding islands.
 
No, Angela, she doesn't look like a British woman. They have made her look distinctly negroid, or at least 'mixed race', with flared nostrils and [it looks like] diastema too. If they had been attempting to reconstruct the face of a down-and-out from Detroit who had been murdered by her pimp, I'd think it a lot more accurate.



Anglo-Saxons were ethnically and linguistically akin to the modern Dutch. Yes, some of them lived in Jutland, and at that time the Danes were living in Zealand and the surrounding islands.

Well, at least your posts provide comic relief.

You have obviously never been anywhere near Detroit or BedStuy for that matter. This is Negroid:
aisha-hinds-underground-compressed.jpg



Negroids have flat noses also.

Perhaps you should take a drawing class. It might help your visual pattern recognition problems.

I will agree though that there aren't that many pretty Med type women among the British. So, we'll claim her.
 
Well, at least your posts provide comic relief

Perhaps you should take a drawing class. It might help your visual pattern recognition problems

It looks like an African-American, who are - as you well know - heavily-mixed with West Eurasians (particularly Britons, Irishmen and the French). That is why their features can look intermediate between Negroids and Caucasoids, even where known ancestry is all 'black'. That is why I consider this reconstruction remindful of African-Americans I have seen and/or personally encountered. If you think that woman looks Mediterranean, especially a European Med, I think you need your eyes testing.

It seems obvious to me that this is a continuation of the Cheddar Man deception. They have clearly assumed that a) Cheddar Man's colouration was a reliable starting point, and b) that the genetics pertaining to skin colouration in mixed WHG/Farmer offspring functioned like modern Afro-Europeans, and that this woman's minor-but-noticeable WHG ancestry would have resulted in a skin tone akin to a mulatto.

I will agree though that there aren't that many pretty Med type women among the British

Hearty LOL at yet another of your petty jibes. They're awfully common, I've noticed. Tell me, are the men in your own life so weak that they would be offended by a vague reference to the perceived unattractiveness of their countrywomen by an anonymous online figure? I'm sure they're not. I'm sure an aging woman from a notoriously looks-obsessed, paternalist and male-oriented Italian background couldn't be accused of seeking mental relief in talking about 'Mediterranean beauty' online as she abused a small amount of cyber-power to hand out 'infractions' to an all-male group of forum users who dared to oppose her opinion... No, that wouldn't be the case at all...

Plus, I'm not sure your definition of pretty really matters anyway. I mean, why do you have a photo of Janice Soprano as your profile picture? If I were you I'd have at least gone for an attractive Italian, like Sophia Loren

Have a nice day, Angela
 
@Alcuin, that's Angela herself in her profile pic
 
@Alcuin, that's Angela herself in her profile pic

:^)

I hope she's not offended by my mistake, in fact I'm sure she'll be flattered to have been mistaken for a Mediterranean stunner like Aida Turturro
 
As I said, Alduin, you really should take a drawing class to sharpen your visual perception.

If you're going to insult me pick someone plausible. Aida Turturro at about the age I am in my photo:

zA4D9TV.png


I think she was quite attractive at that age, and I wouldn't have at all minded looking like her, but I don't and never did, not in any feature of face or body. You really seem to have no idea of the regional differences in Italy.

I'll also point out that I did not personalize this or attack your looks in any way; I merely said that there's not a lot of pretty women of a Med type in Britain. There's certainly pretty women of other types. That goes without saying, but perhaps only with normal people.

Yes, I have my preferences in terms of phenotypes. Take a look at the Ideal of Beauty thread. Everyone does. One can have preferences, Alcuin, without demeaning people of another type. See, that's the problem with racists: in order to maintain their sense of superiority they have to debase others, as in picking a once attractive woman who with age and ill health became morbidly obese to attack me and all Italian women.

In a way, that's rather ironic as well, given that Italians are among the thinnest people in Europe and the British among the fattest. It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

I was going to delete your post, but I've decided to leave it up so people can see what type of man you are.

You will, however, get an infraction.
 
View attachment 10661

He trabajado en la imagen y creo que debería mirar o al menos es el resultado que obtuve. También tenía que tener su ADN autosómico.

By the way, everyone knows that Italians are the most handsome in Europe.
 
View attachment 10661

He trabajado en la imagen y creo que debería mirar o al menos es el resultado que obtuve. También tenía que tener su ADN autosómico.

By the way, everyone knows that Italians are the most handsome in Europe.

Very nice.

She has a bit of a Frida Kahlo look to her, going at least by her self-portrait , but in real life I think there's less of a resemblance. She was, by the way, German Lutheran, Spanish Mexican, and one quarter indigenous. :)

autorretrato-frida.jpg


Frida_Kahlo%2C_by_Guillermo_Kahlo.jpg


Salma Hayek portraying Kahlo. (She's half Mexican and half Lebanese btw) Neither woman has the reconstruction's face shape.

015-frida-kahlo-theredlist.jpg
 
I'll also point out that I did not personalize this or attack your looks in any way; I merely said that there's not a lot of pretty women of a Med type in Britain


And given how utterly irrelevant that was to anything that had been said prior, by anyone in the thread, the natural inference to make - particularly given the inclusion of the word 'pretty' - was that you were stating that British women are ugly, as if that was of any importance to even one poster's claims. If you had said that there are few Med-type women in Britain, that's another thing entirely. The inclusion of the word 'pretty' alters the meaning of the statement. You're either saying that Med women exist in Britain but are universally ugly for the type, or you're saying the same thing and suggesting that this makes a man like myself less capable of identifying Mediterranean features. Perhaps you could clear this up, lest anyone be offended by what might appear a highly offensive claim. I know that would never be your intention.


There's certainly pretty women of other types. That goes without saying, but perhaps only with normal people


We're all mad here


Yes, I have my preferences in terms of phenotypes. Take a look at the Ideal of Beauty thread. Everyone does. One can have preferences, Alcuin, without demeaning people of another type. See, that's the problem with racists: in order to maintain their sense of superiority they have to debase others, as in picking a once attractive woman who with age and ill health became morbidly obese to attack me and all Italian women


I recall you mentioning that you read English at University, and that you were rather fond of the English language. It therefore surprises me a little to see you infer something from my post that wasn't even hinted at, never mind stated outright. Where did I attack Italian women? As it happens I had my first 'proper' experience of the fairer sex with a cute Tuscan girl, with flowing black hair, milk-white skin and sparkling blue eyes...
Naturally, you are entitled to your own opinions on what you think sexually attractive or beautiful. I come from Yorkshire, a place whose people are generally regarded by other Britons as incredibly forthright. I happen to respect somebody who calls a spade a spade, rather than dancing around with vague terms. You're not unlike that yourself. That's not to say that people can't be a little more pleasant, and it does seem you take a little too readily to insults and condescension in some of these threads, mostly because people happen to have either asked a question to which you already know the answer (the horror) or opposed one of your opinions or theories. Why is that?


In a way, that's rather ironic as well, given that Italians are among the thinnest people in Europe and the British among the fattest. It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black

Absolutely irrelevant to anything I said, but I'm young and healthy anyway so never mind :)


I was going to delete your post, but I've decided to leave it up so people can see what type of man you are


I blame the parents


Very nice.


She has a bit of a Frida Kahlo look to her, going at least by her self-portrait , but in real life I think there's less of a resemblance. She was, by the way, German Lutheran, Spanish Mexican, and one quarter indigenous. :)


Salma Hayek portraying Kahlo. (She's half Mexican and half Lebanese btw) Neither woman has the reconstruction's face shape


And yet both look more obvious candidates for a Neolithic Briton, WHG ancestry or not
 

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