Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum

View Poll Results: Do you think that these G2a men share some common looks?

Voters
17. You may not vote on this poll
  • They have many in common.

    6 35.29%
  • They have some common.

    5 29.41%
  • They have not.

    6 35.29%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 75

Thread: G2a men share some common looks?

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-18
    Posts
    29
    Points
    718
    Level
    6
    Points: 718, Level: 6
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Canada



    Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.

  2. #27
    Spammer Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    22-07-18
    Posts
    377
    Points
    2,436
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,436, Level: 13
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.
    Most of those with I2 and G2 in the pictures come from Central and North Western Europe and less from the East. However, I2 and G2 have a long history of long-term coexistence from Neolithic until now in Europe, and you are right, autosomaly are probably very close now.

    From these pictures, besides faces' expressions it seems to me, if not a coincidence, that G2 men has the lower part of the nose slightly wider, and more pronounced partial baldness appears in the front of the head.
    About the difference between "aura" of the expression of the faces is more difficult to talk about.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-18
    Posts
    29
    Points
    718
    Level
    6
    Points: 718, Level: 6
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Most of those with I2 and G2 in the pictures come from Central and North Western Europe and less from the East. However, I2 and G2 have a long history of long-term coexistence from Neolithic until now in Europe, and you are right, autosomaly are probably very close now.

    From these pictures, besides faces' expressions it seems to me, if not a coincidence, that G2 men has the lower part of the nose slightly wider, and more pronounced partial baldness appears in the front of the head.
    About the difference between "aura" of the expression of the faces is more difficult to talk about.

    The point about broad noses and baldness is strange/inconsistent since a high G2a population like Georgians seem to have quiet narrow noses and fairly modest foreheads for most of the part.

  4. #29
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,553
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,553, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.
    Completely agree.

    I hope people aren't taking this too seriously.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Most of those with I2 and G2 in the pictures come from Central and North Western Europe and less from the East. However, I2 and G2 have a long history of long-term coexistence from Neolithic until now in Europe, and you are right, autosomaly are probably very close now.
    From these pictures, besides faces' expressions it seems to me, if not a coincidence, that G2 men has the lower part of the nose slightly wider, and more pronounced partial baldness appears in the front of the head.
    About the difference between "aura" of the expression of the faces is more difficult to talk about.
    Gidai, having a wider nose - or whatever - would mean having the so-called "aura", no? Or even much more than that. Well, I have relatives in male line whose noses are slim (not sure this is the word), and I'm myself a G-P303 like you (more specifically, G-L497). It seems kind of an illusory correlation then.
    But allow me a digression using, anecdotelly, two certain friends (real people, but it doesn't matter who they are) - and good ones, despite their differences. One of them, who had his brother tested, is kind of fragile, cubbish and relatively short. He's what some people would call a "nerd", even if he's not such thing. The other one, also tested, is quite the opposite. Now, if you call someone to guess which haplogroup belongs to each one, the answer would be wrong more likely, given the cognitive biases. The "fragile" one descends in paternal line from the "Conans" - not an irony; just an exageration that serves the point - who founded (or dominated, if you prefer) roughly half of Europe. It represents both how stereotypes work and how autosomal as a whole, with its millions of polimorphisms, seems far more important than some mutations that defines Y hgs in general. Yeah, I know it's evident, especially putting this way, but that was my intention: stating the obvious, as aleph did above. Anyway, I use those guys as example because they're the only ones I know outside internet whose Y-DNAs were (in)directly tested (sure, the result could be extended to their relatives in male line), together with another family's, according to a match in 23andMe. The men in this another family would belong to a widespread haplogroup that someone called "the beast". Naturally, these men fluctuate from the "macho Malboro cowboy" style to the somewhat effeminate type, not to mention all physical differences and other kind of gradients. Easy to know why. It just came to my mind that story about an ant (representing a haplogroup here?) on the back of an elephant (autosomal?) running. The ant then said: hey, see how we make the dust fly! Lol
    You could torture images till they confess some pattern, but come on! The huge differences, on the other hand, really scream. This is the only clear thing here. ;)
    This should be enough, really, but as they say: "there are too many variables involved to make any meaningful conclusion". So let's keep the mind opened and try to understand it with the possible clues we have so far.

    What is not so obvious is the absence of any minor influence at all, even virtually undetectable. Point is that this hypothetical minor influence of older "haplogroups" (not necessarily just macro-haplogroups) over phenotype, aside environmental factors, would likely belong to the ground of "big numbers"; it would be a big sampling issue. I.e., given a certain context, they could perhaps make a slight difference in averages, but they would be almost absolutely overshadowed by autosomal in the individual level, making virtually impossible to classify someone based on this supposed "aura". Again: this detectable aura wouldn't exist in practice, due to a huge overlapping imposed by Autosomal. So their influence would be comparatively (very) low, whereas autosomal's would be (very) high, hence the huge overlapping. If you allow me silly examples, never mind if a Y haplogroup would make, say, your nose 1 mm longer, or your aggressiveness 1 mm longer, he he he, or your sperm count jump from 100 to 110 million, if your autosomal can make much more than that. Unless you really believe that mutations related to this kind of haplogroups may equal autosomal or even surpass it in some really relevant ways, but the clues are against this hypothesis, apparently. We'd need more research, but additional mutations in subgroups could occasionaly make it more difficult to be done.

    Obviously Y chromosome per se is pretty important, after all it makes us men, not to mention the role of certain mutations in health. Plus, that's what, say, the diffefence between liger and tigon suggests. However, lions and tigers are different species sepparated by millions of years, while some macro-haplogroups are sepparated by just ~30k years. Additionally, it's not only the Y chromosome that is different from each other (in liger and tigon), but also another whole recombined one: the X.
    So, imo the role of haplogroups is possibly a bit overestimated by some people, either over phenotype or over their own expansion/reduction in frequency. This would be another related discussion. Perhaps they matter for frequency in the long term to a certain extent, but important populational changes in the past happened suddenly, as we know, and it looks like an exagerarion assign them to haplogroups. Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Where would Occam razor point to? Lucky (in broad sense) and/or autosomal to some extent could explain "successes" more likely, it seems, even if not all the time (exceptions might confirm the rule)? Context matters*. Indeed, an haplogroup which are very common in certain places may be for some reason uncommon in other places, even in those where it has a relatively long presence. And frequent haplogroups may have sister clades that are not common at all. There was no "equality" between subclades, at least till not much time ago. Plus, most of haplogroups which are very common today suffered severe bottlenecks and flirted with extinction (sometimes with "competition" between their own carrying men, other times also with others - which would matter more in this discussion), like the one we were talking about: I1 (among many others, of course, and not that just competition explains it). Between more than 20k and 5k years ago, just one I1 man in each generation left patrilineal descendants living today. Take out one of them and bye bye the I1 as we know it now. How many lines were extinct since the time of the most recent common ancestor of all living men? Hard to guess. Perhaps "the best" (whatever it means) went extinct, he he he. Who knows! :) Apparently, at least till few thousands of years ago, it was kind of a lottery. You know, in lotteries, the chances a certain specific person will take the prize are low, but the chances some lucky bastard will take it are high. ;)

    (Haplogroups would be kind of abstractions; in certain sense, they don't live and die: people carrying the related mutations do. But you got what I meant in all this talking, je je je.)

    Finally, not to say I don't care about haplogroups. I do. I've my intellectual curiosities in this regard, and populational genetics provides me some fun. :)

    *See how Italy became more vulnerable due to its internal divisions, which may have impacted its Y-DNA pool in certain areas, or how some Middle Eastern hgs will grow in frequency in Europe due to higher fertility of immigrants, or consider the mere "will to kill", when a nation or group of people do have the ways to decimate other group, and they do it or don't do it depending on diverse circumstances... And on and on. The examples multiply.

    Conclusion is: assigning this to hgs seems a too simplistic solution for a too complex reality. Angela is right. This shouldn't be taken too seriously. I just decided to give the issue some thought, 'cause it shows up here from time to time. My two cents, and I'm done! :)

    ED: just a little correction.
    Last edited by Regio X; 12-02-19 at 21:46.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've been on a "Queen", Freddie Mercury listening binge, and it finally occurred to me that his phenotype fits in too.

    He was a Parsi from India, although I don't personally see any Indian in him. Instead, he looks very Caucasus like to me, which makes sense since they originated in Iran. Interestingly, before looking him up I always thought he was of European descent of some sort, just always with a tan. :) Compare him to Keith Hernandez who is half Spanish and half Scots Irish.



    It's amazing. This phenotype is indeed spread far and wide. How much "G" in Iran? :)



    Of course, my image of him is always like this. :)



    Gay or not, I always thought he was very sexy.
    It looks a good example. He does have this looking, and we know G-M201 is relatively common in Caucasus, especially in North Ossetia (~70%), South Ossetia, Circassia, Georgia... Whereas it's not common outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.
    I tend to agree, except that even a low % over a big number means lots of people for comparison.

  7. #32
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,553
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,553, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Just for curiosity's sake, I looked up the genetics of the Zoroastrian Iranians:


    "Furthermore, a recent study using genome-wide autosomal DNA found that haplotype patterns in Iranian Zoroastrians matched more than other modern Iranian groups to a high-coverage early Neolithic farmer genome from Iran.12"






    Parsis seem to be from about 64%-76% Iranian, which explains his looks. Interestingly, I saw a picture of his mother and she looks very Indian.




    In terms of yDna, lots and lots of J, which I assume is J2.







    https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929717302914-mmc1.pdf













  8. #33
    Spammer Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    22-07-18
    Posts
    377
    Points
    2,436
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,436, Level: 13
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Gidai, having a wider nose - or whatever - would mean having the so-called "aura", no? Or even much more than that. Well, I have relatives in male line whose noses are slim (not sure this is the word), and I'm myself a G-P303 like you (more specifically, G-L497). It seems kind of an illusory correlation then.
    But allow me a digression using, anedoctelly, two certain friends (real people, but it doesn't matter who they are) - and good ones, despite their differences. One of them, who had his brother tested, is kind of fragile, cubbish and relatively short. He's what some people would call a "nerd", even if he's not such thing. The other one, also tested, is quite the opposite. Now, if you call someone to guess which haplogroup belongs to each one, the answer would be wrong more likely, given the cognitive biases. The "fragile" one descends in paternal line from the "Conans" - not an irony; just an exageration that serves the point - who founded (or dominated, if you prefer) roughly half of Europe. It represents both how stereotypes work and how autosomal as a whole, with its millions of polimorphisms, seems far more important than some mutations that defines Y hgs in general. Yeah, I know it's evident, especially putting this way, but that was my intention: stating the obvious, as aleph did above. Anyway, I use those guys as example because they're the only ones I know outside internet whose Y-DNAs were (in)directly tested (sure, the result could be extended to their relatives in male line), together with another family's, according to a match in 23andMe. The men in this another family would belong to a widespread haplogroup that someone called "the beast". Naturally, these men fluctuate from the "macho Malboro cowboy" style to the somewhat effeminate type, not to mention all physical differences and other kind of gradients. Easy to know why. It just came to my mind that story about an ant (representing a haplogroup here?) on the back of an elephant (autosomal?) running. The ant then said: hey, see how we make the dust fly! Lol
    You could torture images till they confess some pattern, but come on! The huge differences, on the other hand, really scream. This is the only clear thing here. ;)
    This should be enough, really, but as they say: "there are too many variables involved to make any meaningful conclusion". So let's keep the mind opened and try to understand it with the possible clues we have so far.
    What is not so obvious is the absence of any minor influence at all, even virtually undetectable. Point is that this hypothetical minor influence of older "haplogroups" (not necessarily just macro-haplogroups) over phenotype, aside environmental factors, would likely belong to the ground of "big numbers"; it would be a big sampling issue. I.e., given a certain context, they could perhaps make a slight difference in averages, but they would be almost absolutely overshadowed by autosomal in the individual level, making virtually impossible to classify someone based on this supposed "aura". Again: this detectable aura wouldn't exist in practice, due to a huge overlapping imposed by Autosomal. So their influence would be comparatively (very) low, whereas autosomal's would be (very) high, hence the huge overlapping. If you allow me silly examples, never mind if a Y haplogroup would make, say, your nose 1 mm longer, or your aggressiveness 1 mm longer, he he he, or your sperm count jump from 100 to 110 million, if your autosomal can make much more than that. Unless you really believe that mutations related to this kind of haplogroups may equal autosomal or even surpass it in some really relevant ways, but the clues are against this hypothesis, apparently. We'd need more research, but additional mutations in subgroups could occasionaly make it more difficult to be done.
    Obviously Y chromosome per se is pretty important, after all it makes us men, not to mention the role of certain mutations in health. Plus, that's what, say, the diffefence between liger and tigon suggests. However, lions and tigers are different species sepparated by millions of years, while some macro-haplogroups are sepparated by just ~30k years. Additionally, it's not only the Y chromosome that is different from each other (in liger and tigon), but also another whole recombined one: the X.
    So, imo the role of haplogroups is possibly a bit overestimated by some people, either over phenotype or over their own expansion/reduction in frequency. This would be another related discussion. Perhaps they matter for frequency in the long term to a certain extent, but important populational changes in the past happened suddenly, as we know, and it looks like an exagerarion assign them to haplogroups. Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Where would Occam razor point to? Lucky (in broad sense) and/or autosomal to some extent could explain "successes" more likely, it seems, even if not all the time (exceptions might confirm the rule)? Context matters*. Indeed, an haplogroup which are very common in certain places may be for some reason uncommon in other places, even in those where it has a relatively long presence. And frequent haplogroups may have sister clades that are not common at all. There was no "equality" between subclades, at least till not much time ago. Plus, most of haplogroups which are very common today suffered severe bottlenecks and flirted with extinction (sometimes with "competition" between their own carrying men, other times also with others - which would matter more in this discussion), like the one we were talking about: I1 (among many others, of course, and not that just competition explains it). Between more than 20k and 5k years ago, just one I1 man in each generation left patrilineal descendants living today. Take out one of them and bye bye the I1 as we know it now. How many lines were extinct since the time of the most recent common ancestor of all living men? Hard to guess. Perhaps "the best" (whatever it means) went extinct, he he he. Who knows! :) Apparently, at least till few thousands of years ago, it was kind of a lottery. You know, in lotteries, the chances a certain specific person will take the prize are low, but the chances some lucky bastard will take it are high. ;)
    (Haplogroups would be kind of abstractions; in certain sense, they don't live and die: people carrying the related mutations do. But you got what I meant in all this talking, je je je.)
    Finally, not to say I don't care about haplogroups. I do. I've my intellectual curiosities in this regard, and genetic genealogy provides me some fun. :)
    *See how Italy became more vulnerable due to its internal divisions, which may have impacted its Y-DNA pool in certain areas, or how some Middle Eastern hgs will grow in frequency in Europe due to higher fertility of immigrants, or consider the mere "will to kill", when a nation or group of people do have the ways to decimate other group, and they do it or don't do it depending on diverse circumstances... And on and on. The examples multiply.
    Conclusion is: assigning this to hgs seems a too simplistic solution for a too complex reality. Angela is right. This shouldn't be taken too seriously. I just decided to give the issue some thought, 'cause it shows up here from time to time. My two cents, and I'm done! :)
    Thanks for your wonderful examples! I understand what you say.
    Indeed, the autosomal part speaks its word first. But also the different living environment. So it is very difficult to filter the differences that may result from the influences of different haplogroups.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Thanks for your wonderful examples! I understand what you say.
    Indeed, the autosomal part speaks its word first. But also the different living environment. So it is very difficult to filter the differences that may result from the influences of different haplogroups.
    I'm glad they helped.
    I was thinking, that one on Italy is a bit off, but ok. The influence to which I referred happened too early, so the example doesn't make much sense. Anyway, the point was to show the importance of casual events and contexts in general. There would be a big menu. Just use the imagination.

    @Angela
    So the odds are he was J2, also common in Caucasus. But G2 is not exactly common in Iran. :)

  10. #35
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,553
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,553, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I'm glad they helped.
    I was thinking, that one on Italy is a bit off, but ok. The influence to which I referred happened too early, so the example doesn't make much sense. Anyway, the point was to show the importance of casual events and contexts in general. There would be a big menu. Just use the imagination.

    @Angela

    So the odds are he was J2, also common in Caucasus. But G2 is not exactly common in Iran. :)
    My point exactly. It's a Caucasus/Iranian type look, not specifically a G2a look, although my husband is G2a and has a bit of it.

    It's complicated. :)

    I was struck by the fact that the Iranian Zoroastrians are the closest to the pretty old Iran Neo sample.

    It's a look definitely there among the Georgians, reduced and feminized among the women.


    Stalin:

  11. #36
    Spammer Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    22-07-18
    Posts
    377
    Points
    2,436
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,436, Level: 13
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: Romania



    As Maciamo suggests here, a study of clones but with different Y-DNA corresponding to different haplogroups could clarify if/what the differences are. Clones would be good because they would eliminate the variability caused by different autosomal DNA. Genetic engineering stuff.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    As Maciamo suggests here, a study of clones but with different Y-DNA corresponding to different haplogroups could clarify if/what the differences are. Clones would be good because they would eliminate the variability caused by different autosomal DNA. Genetic engineering stuff.
    Even twins are not really equal, and environmental factors could be somewhat misleading here, unless the differences turned out to be substancial, which would be unlikely imo. Anyway, it would be a good test.

    Not directly related, so off-topic, but it's worth to mention epigenetics as well. Its influence has been discussed. Some related articles, out of curiosity:
    https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...ost-animal/amp
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0717100548.htm
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6335/320
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41556-018-0242-9

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My point exactly. It's a Caucasus/Iranian type look, not specifically a G2a look, although my husband is G2a and has a bit of it.

    It's complicated. :)

    I was struck by the fact that the Iranian Zoroastrians are the closest to the pretty old Iran Neo sample.

    It's a look definitely there among the Georgians, reduced and feminized among the women.


    Stalin:
    I confess I didn't know about his Iranian origin. I thought he was Indian in ancestry. And I didn't know Zoroastrians are the most Iran Neo in the world. Interesting!
    I myself seem to have some extra-Iran Neo compared to other NE Italians, but I think I'm pretty different from Iranians and people related. Perhaps the deep-set eyes (how do you call it when the eyes seem to be inside a cave? lol)? I don't know if this trait would be related more closely to the people in Caucasus though.
    I used to think I resembled a bit Christian Vieri based on soccer games I've watched time ago, but I just saw some pictures again and nah. Not so similar. :)

    How old was Stalin in that picture? Very different from his older version.


    In this picture he seems closer to his young version:

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-05-18
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    38
    Points
    1,200
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,200, Level: 9
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 150
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1c

    Ethnic group
    Georgian
    Country: Georgia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Georgian here, Freddy looks nothing like a Georgian. If I saw him in the street I'd think he was an Iranian tourist. G2a has a huge percentage among western Georgians but is very low in eastern Georgians, so you'll need to look at "Svans" who are oldest and least mixed of G2a groups here, which means both men and women would carry the "closest to original" G2a look. And here's the pic of the oldest Svan man available from 1800s

    Looks to me like Bryan Cranston tbh.

  14. #39
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,553
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,553, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Even twins are not really equal, and environmental factors could be somewhat misleading here, unless the differences turned out to be substancial, which would be unlikely imo. Anyway, it would be a good test.

    Not directly related, so off-topic, but it's worth to mention epigenetics as well. Its influence has been discussed. Some related articles, out of curiosity:
    https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...ost-animal/amp
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0717100548.htm
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6335/320
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41556-018-0242-9

    I confess I didn't know about his Iranian origin. I thought he was Indian in ancestry. And I didn't know Zoroastrians are the most Iran Neo in the world. Interesting!
    I myself seem to have some extra-Iran Neo compared to other NE Italians, but I think I'm pretty different from Iranians and people related. Perhaps the deep-set eyes (how do you call it when the eyes seem to be inside a cave? lol)? I don't know if this trait would be related more closely to the people in Caucasus though.
    I used to think I resembled a bit Christian Vieri based on soccer games I've watched time ago, but I just saw some pictures again and nah. Not so similar. :)

    How old was Stalin in that picture? Very different from his older version.


    In this picture he seems closer to his young version:
    He was 22, a "young revolutionary". He looks it. Of course, he was probably already spying for the secret police by then. He was both a sociopath and psychopath imo. Every country has their share.




    Quite fetching when young, not so much so when older...

    I think with age and more weight, the jaw line becomes much more pronounced, and the face wider? It happened to Freddy too.

    It's interesting how certain groups really have a limited "range" in terms of phenotype. It's so different from Italians.

    The Parsis are a really interesting group. Amazing how India seems to lend itself to endogamy in every group.

    Some other Indian Parsis:

    The great Zubin Mehta:


    He looks more Indian in old age.

    John Abraham-actor

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-05-18
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    38
    Points
    1,200
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,200, Level: 9
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 150
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1c

    Ethnic group
    Georgian
    Country: Georgia



    Gyllenhaal does look like a typical Georgian too. In fact I have a friend that looks like his mirror image.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,198
    Points
    39,935
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,935, Level: 61
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 415
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    I do not believe that Y-Dna is main characteristic of phenotype,
    some effects due to some ormones etc maybe,
    but I do not think that Y-DNA affects or determines phenotype marks
    anyway,

    I am G2a,
    and most friends say I look like him,
    with mark of chin and the chin looking down, not infront




    make it brown eyes hairs,

    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Anyway, it would be a good test.
    Apart the ethical matter, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    Georgian here, Freddy looks nothing like a Georgian. If I saw him in the street I'd think he was an Iranian tourist. G2a has a huge percentage among western Georgians but is very low in eastern Georgians, so you'll need to look at "Svans" who are oldest and least mixed of G2a groups here, which means both men and women would carry the "closest to original" G2a look. And here's the pic of the oldest Svan man available from 1800s

    Looks to me like Bryan Cranston tbh.
    Yeah, the Western Caucasus is heavier in G-M201. Adygean perhaps has even more than Svans/Abkhazians? Btw, would be G2a1 more common in Georgia and G2a2 in NW? What's yours, if I may ask?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He was 22, a "young revolutionary". He looks it. Of course, he was probably already spying for the secret police by then. He was both a sociopath and psychopath imo. Every country has their share.


    Quite fetching when young, not so much so when older...
    I think with age and more weight, the jaw line becomes much more pronounced, and the face wider? It happened to Freddy too.
    It's interesting how certain groups really have a limited "range" in terms of phenotype. It's so different from Italians.
    The Parsis are a really interesting group. Amazing how India seems to lend itself to endogamy in every group.
    Some other Indian Parsis:
    The great Zubin Mehta:

    He looks more Indian in old age.
    John Abraham-actor
    Thanks.
    Yeah, probably a psycho (which would make him a sociopath too).

    It's really amazing the variation in Italy, sometimes even in the same region. I think my paternal family is pretty different from my maternal family, for example. The former tend to be tall, black haired and brown eyed (inheritance of my father's paternal grandparents mainly), while the maternal are shorter and more Northern shifted (some of them even exaggeratedly, as an uncle): light haired and light eyed. I'm not knowledgeble in this matter, but I'd risk to say my paternal family is more shifted to (South) Balkan in looking? The maternal, on the other hand, more shifted to Austria/S. Germany? Both father and mother virtually full Venetians in ancestry, with a father's paternal grandmother being the exception, from Mantova province.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I do not believe that Y-Dna is main characteristic of phenotype,
    some effects due to some ormones etc maybe,
    but I do not think that Y-DNA affects or determines phenotype marks
    anyway,
    I am G2a,
    and most friends say I look like him,
    with mark of chin and the chin looking down, not infront

    make it brown eyes hairs,
    Hey, I remember him. I've watched Per Un Pugno di Dollari and Per Qualche Dollaro in Più - great Morricone, great Leone! :) I see he acted also in L'armata Brancaleone, but I confess I don't remember him in this one.

    ED: little correction.
    Last edited by Regio X; 14-02-19 at 13:43.

  18. #43
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,553
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,553, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Apart the ethical matter, of course.

    Yeah, the Western Caucasus is heavier in G-M201. Adygean perhaps has even more than Svans/Abkhazians? Btw, would be G2a1 more common in Georgia and G2a2 in NW? What's yours, if I may ask?

    Thanks.
    Yeah, probably a psycho (which would make him a sociopath too).

    It's really amazing the variation in Italy, sometimes even in the same region. I think my paternal family is pretty different from my maternal family, for example. The former tend to be tall, black haired and brown eyed (inheritance of my father's paternal grandparent mainly), while the maternal are shorter and more Northern shifted (some of them even exaggeratedly, as an uncle): light haired and light eyed. I'm not knowledgeble in this matter, but I'd risk to say my paternal family is more shifted to (South) Balkan in looking? The maternal, on the other hand, more shifted to Austria/S. Germany? Both father and mother virtually full Venetians in ancestry, with a father's paternal grandmother being the exception, from Mantova province.

    Hey, I remember him. I've watched Per Un Pugno di Dollari and Per Qualche Dollaro in Più - great Morricone, great Leone! :) I see he acted also in L'armata Brancaleone, but I confess I don't remember him in this one.
    It's the same in my family. The distance, as the crow flies, between the Appennino Parmense and the Lunigiana is very small, less than 50 kilometers in some places? It's not even that far to the La Spezia of my maternal grandfather, whom my mother most resembles. Yet, my father and mother are completely different phenotypically. Both Italian, though. :)

    I guess part of it is that some of the highest peaks of the Apennines lie between their ancestral homelands, but still...

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-05-18
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    38
    Points
    1,200
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,200, Level: 9
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 150
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1c

    Ethnic group
    Georgian
    Country: Georgia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Apart the ethical matter, of course.

    Yeah, the Western Caucasus is heavier in G-M201. Adygean perhaps has even more than Svans/Abkhazians? Btw, would be G2a1 more common in Georgia and G2a2 in NW? What's yours, if I may ask?
    Well Caucasus consists of tribes and it has a very rigid East-West divide. East being mostly J and West being G. the mix outside their native zones is probably the trickle and movement throughout the centuries. When we put results as "Georgia" being 30% etc it's a bit deceiving because Georgia is sort of a tiny Empire that breached the East/West divide. So it would be more accurate if we look at data on tribe by tribe basis. Last time I checked Among Svans the G2a was about to hit 80% which is highest of any group. You could find a lot of strands all over Caucasus that have Svan heritage, for example Ossetians seem to have links to Svan, this gave way to hypothesis that big part of Ossetians aren't really Alan but descended from Dvals(now extinct group closely related to Svans) who were a group inhabiting the area before Alans. It's likely that the tribe was assimilated by Alans during their heyday in north Caucasus.

    Anyone who is remotely interested in the haplogroup G and it's history should pay close attention to testing of Svan people. It is a very strange and unique case, Highest density of G in the world with a lot of diversity and very old strands as well. Here's a nice article. https://sciencetrends.com/deep-histo...ic-sequencing/

    I'd like to start a separate thread about Svans, but due to me being a mere enthusiast and having close to 0 understanding of the actual genetics I'd ask someone more educated on the subject to do so. I'll gladly provide sources, and translate any Georgian/Russian when i find them.

  20. #45
    Spammer Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    22-07-18
    Posts
    377
    Points
    2,436
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,436, Level: 13
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: Romania



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    Anyone who is remotely interested in the haplogroup G and it's history should pay close attention to testing of Svan people. It is a very strange and unique case, Highest density of G in the world with a lot of diversity and very old strands as well. Here's a nice article. https://sciencetrends.com/deep-histo...ic-sequencing/
    I've found the detailed study here. I do not understand much of the specialist terms, but I think the very large number of G2a haplotypes found in Svan could indicate the area as an outbreak of spreading this haplogrup through new subclades? I also rely these with the fact that in the Caucasus and especially in Georgia are a very high number of new born boys/girls in the ratio of 1,16.

  21. #46
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's the same in my family. The distance, as the crow flies, between the Appennino Parmense and the Lunigiana is very small, less than 50 kilometers in some places? It's not even that far to the La Spezia of my maternal grandfather, whom my mother most resembles. Yet, my father and mother are completely different phenotypically. Both Italian, though. :)
    I guess part of it is that some of the highest peaks of the Apennines lie between their ancestral homelands, but still...
    This regional diversity, like in Veneto for example, is not so surprising when it comes to Italy! Imo all these variations make it one of the most interesting countries also under a genetic point of view. Sometimes we notice relatively big variations even between siblings, but I stop here. Enough! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    Well Caucasus consists of tribes and it has a very rigid East-West divide. East being mostly J and West being G. the mix outside their native zones is probably the trickle and movement throughout the centuries. When we put results as "Georgia" being 30% etc it's a bit deceiving because Georgia is sort of a tiny Empire that breached the East/West divide. So it would be more accurate if we look at data on tribe by tribe basis. Last time I checked Among Svans the G2a was about to hit 80% which is highest of any group. You could find a lot of strands all over Caucasus that have Svan heritage, for example Ossetians seem to have links to Svan, this gave way to hypothesis that big part of Ossetians aren't really Alan but descended from Dvals(now extinct group closely related to Svans) who were a group inhabiting the area before Alans. It's likely that the tribe was assimilated by Alans during their heyday in north Caucasus.
    Anyone who is remotely interested in the haplogroup G and it's history should pay close attention to testing of Svan people. It is a very strange and unique case, Highest density of G in the world with a lot of diversity and very old strands as well. Here's a nice article. https://sciencetrends.com/deep-histo...ic-sequencing/
    I'd like to start a separate thread about Svans, but due to me being a mere enthusiast and having close to 0 understanding of the actual genetics I'd ask someone more educated on the subject to do so. I'll gladly provide sources, and translate any Georgian/Russian when i find them.
    Nice clarifying, G2ian. Thanks!

    I didn't know the frequency in them is that high. If Svans are related to Ossetians, then I assume they are mostly G2a1 (in Italy, I guess you find it mainly in Marche). The frequency of G2a among Shapsugs in Russia reaches almost that, btw, but they would be G2a2-U1 mainly, while the highest concentrations of G-M201 would have been found in Kazakhstan, among Madjars (86.7%) from Torgay area, and Argyns (Basmyl). These are G1, which highest diversity is found in Iran/E. Turkey.

    Still about diversity, I'm not sure it's high in Svanetia. At least according to Rootsi et al, the SNP diversity (better than STR diversity imo) of G-M201 in Caucasus is low (in opposition to frequency), while it's high in Armenia (the highest, even if at relatively low frequencies), NW Iran and E. Turkey, so these areas are good candidates for the origin of the MRCA of G-M201, from ~26k years ago. As for the place of formation abt. 50k years ago, I definetely buy Bicicleur hypothesis, which states it would have formed closer to the (likely Eastern) area where GHIJK, HIJK etc. themselves formed also ~50k years ago. But in these cases the TMRCAs are close to the times of formation. It makes sense.

  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    If Svans are related to Ossetians, then I assume they are mostly G2a1 (in Italy, I guess you find it mainly in Marche).
    @G2ian @Gidai
    Merely out of curiosity, I remember that someone registered, in the old YSearch, STR markers supposedly from Messi. They pointed to G2a1. Some people thought it was strange, since it's rare in Europe as a whole. Well, Barcelona's players did have their DNAs tested time ago, and his father's paternal grandfather was from Recanati-MC, Marche. If my memory serves, both Boattini (prediction based on STRs) and Ethnopedia show %s above traces for G2a1 in Macerata (~5%?) and Marche (also ~5% - access 2017 May), respectively, hard to find in other places in Europe, apparently. So in fact the result wouldn't be out of the place. Obviously, they may be fake, since any one could register STR markers in there and put whatever name. Still... Who knows!

    That said, here is Messi (G2a1???)



    G2a-L293 Eupedia Map



    Province of Macerata



    See also:
    https://www.sportskeeda.com/football...e-over-arsenal
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...h-Arsenal.html
    (However, these articles are from the beginning of 2016, while the supposed results of Messi were already in YSearch around 2015 July (when someone posted about it here in Eupedia. So, don't know!)

    @Gidai
    This is James Franciscus - from Planet of the Apes -, G2b (former G2c).

    Last edited by Regio X; 14-02-19 at 19:35.

  23. #48
    Spammer Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    22-07-18
    Posts
    377
    Points
    2,436
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,436, Level: 13
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: Romania



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Regio X
    I think, Messi have the "aura" of a Caucasian or Svan(G2a1) men, but Franciscus also of an Englishman.
    If they are both G2, we have for sure a common graaa...andfather with them some... 1000 generations ago.

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    @Regio X
    I think, Messi have the "aura" of a Caucasian or Svan(G2a1) men, but Franciscus also of an Englishman.
    If they are both G2, we have for sure a common graaa...andfather with them some... 1000 generations ago.
    Franciscus is/was G2b. We just don't know about Messi. The register of his supposed results in YSearch preceded a bit the publicity that Barcelona's players tested their DNAs. Still, it's not enough for conclusions, obviously.

    Yeah, according to YFull, G2a and G2b separated ~20800 years ago; G2a1 and G2a2, ~18100 years ago.

  25. #50
    Spammer Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class

    Join Date
    22-07-18
    Posts
    377
    Points
    2,436
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,436, Level: 13
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Country: Romania



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Many people from this film have close physiognomy to the South Carpathians peasants where all my grand-grandparents come from. I think that they also comes close to the physiognomy of many Balkan inhabitants and around the Black Sea.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •