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View Poll Results: Do you think that these G2a men share some common looks?

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Thread: G2a men share some common looks?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Based on results, R1b men tended to have broad skulls with flat occipitals. I find this funny because nobody has this skull shape in my family, but I see it often in more eastern European and Balkan people. If we once had this skull shape, we must have taken the skull shapes of the west European Neolithic people. In fact many west European men have Freddy's skull shape, but only the lucky men get his chiseled cheekbones. ;)

    People may joke, but I think there is some autosomal/sexual selection going on. Higher foreheads are more predominant in men, but I find a high forehead on women less attractive. Of course too high a forehead on a man is not attractive either, but seems to be more common and less offensive for women. In fact, I've noticed a high forehead in women is far less common. Some selection at work? I'm not sure.
    Quite a few Dinaric skulls in Italy. The ancient Romans, who were R1b carriers, certainly had broad skulls, although I don't know about the back of the head. Most seem to have been "rounded", so perhaps "Alpine"? Some definitely had a flat back of the head, though.



    I agree with you, fwiw, about autosomal sexual selection. I think cleft chins have been selected for among men at certain periods, along with other things. I personally prefer prominent noses on men too; more masculine somehow.

    However, for a lot of human history we didn't have much choice. We were married to whom our parents chose, or for women might have been mated with whoever forced us.

    The high forehead thing is very culture dependent, I think. In the Middle Ages they were so prized in women that they plucked a lot of their hair out to get it. YUCK! They also found the pregnant belly sexy so if they weren't pregnant, which they usually were, they put pillows under their dresses. To each their own I guess.


    Personally, I find low foreheads very unattractive in both men and women. It looks Neanderthalish or something.

    One I never understood is the bound foot fetish among the Chinese. Not only do I not see how it's sexy, they were rotting, for goodness sakes' so they must have stunk to high heaven.


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  2. #102
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    I still don't have explanation how G2a massively dropped during Bronze Age and on wards.Strange.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I still don't have explanation how G2a massively dropped during Bronze Age and on wards.Strange.
    It wasn't during the Bronze Age; there was a big drop in the perhaps Middle to Late Neolithic as well.

    It's still a mystery.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I still don't have explanation how G2a massively dropped during Bronze Age and on wards.Strange.
    My best guess is some sort of plague with the spread of new populations from the east and increase in trade.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    My best guess is some sort of plague with the spread of new populations from the east and increase in trade.
    The plague makes sense.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07673-7

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.
    Except if, like Covid, for example, it was more lethal for men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.
    I mean its a combination of the revenge of the Hunter gatherers and then indo-europeans expansion. Maybe y I guys were incorporated into IE populations easier due to lifestyle?

    I feel bad for the Y C guys. There was likely a y C and mt U population from Western Europe to Eastern Siberia. The y C guys were eliminated by I guys in the West and SE Asian K2b guys in the east.

    I wonder if the the C guys found refuge in places like India. Does anybody know if Kosetenki-14's y C1b is ancestral to y C1b in India?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.
    Well description of my mtDNA I says it accompanied EEF and also declined with it so yes.
    Your mtDNA signature belongs to the ‘I’ motherline. This ancestral line is estimated to have arisen in the Near East, somewhere between 19 to 26,000 years ago, during the Last Glacial Maximum or in the pre-warming period following it. Some later subfamilies of haplogroup I may have been involved in the spread of agriculture, but the founding members were definitely among the first to enter what we now call Europe, moving with the warming climate, starting from the Late Glacial period, 12-18,000 years ago (Olivieri et al., 2013).
    Today, members of this motherline are found widespread all over Europe, albeit at a low frequency, with the exception of a few isolated populations.
    Haplogroup I has also been observed at a higher frequency in some recent historic samples from Denmark, suggesting that your motherline used to be a larger family, possibly concentrated in that area. It is yet unknown why haplogroup I is less extant today (Melchior et al., 2008; Hofreiter et al., 2010).
    I did read in some other research that MtDNA I was one of the groups accompanying G2a spread in Europe specifically and it also seems to have declined into almost complete obscurity so.

    At this point plague seems most plausible. Although I'm open to any evidence to the contrary.

  10. #110
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    My motherline is mtDNA K1a, which also had a Neolithic entry into Europe. I don't believe they declined, which is the source of my question. It has seemed to me that maternal lines, whether Paleolithic (like my wife's U5b) or Neolithic (like my mother's), seem to continue on through the eons while their male counterparts disappear or are greatly diminished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    My motherline is mtDNA K1a, which also had a Neolithic entry into Europe. I don't believe they declined, which is the source of my question. It has seemed to me that maternal lines, whether Paleolithic (like my wife's U5b) or Neolithic (like my mother's), seem to continue on through the eons while their male counterparts disappear or are greatly diminished.
    True. Although it looks like you have a neolithic y line. I think what Indo-Europeans did to Europe is pretty unique. Usually older lines get absorbed but in Europe Indo-European R1a and R1b pretty much replaced most lines at least in the North. However, I think their original lines were subclasses of U2 which aren't that common either.

  12. #112
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    As I said, Some mtDNAs that were associated with the farmers also declined, others didn't. Could be a million reasons.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    My motherline is mtDNA K1a, which also had a Neolithic entry into Europe. I don't believe they declined, which is the source of my question. It has seemed to me that maternal lines, whether Paleolithic (like my wife's U5b) or Neolithic (like my mother's), seem to continue on through the eons while their male counterparts disappear or are greatly diminished.
    mtDNA K1 (and also H13) was also among mesolithic HGs. See Iron Gates:
    https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM3_ESM.xlsx

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    As I said, Some mtDNAs that were associated with the farmers also declined, others didn't. Could be a million reasons.
    True. I think as whole though the farmer mtdnas declined less than the dnas but like you said some mtdnas did decline. But some farmer ydnas almost completely disappeared though (H2?).

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    mtDNA K1 (and also H13) was also among mesolithic HGs. See Iron Gates:
    https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM3_ESM.xlsx
    Out of curiosity, that Epipaleo Anatolian Hunter-Gatherer sample is mtDNA K, and IIRC there were K in Greece before Neolithic. Not sure. Would have to check it.

    mtDNA N (don't remember the subclade) is one that dropped, but some other "Neolithics" became frequent, as we all know.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    True. I think as whole though the farmer mtdnas declined less than the dnas but like you said some mtdnas did decline. But some farmer ydnas almost completely disappeared though (H2?).
    This is a pure speculation on my part but it could be that mtDnas were spread in clusters rather than evenly across large territories. Those that lived in more densely populated areas or closer to the epicenter of the cataclysm would've been more vulnerable. Coincidentally the Mtdna "I" seems to have been concentrated around modern Northern Germany/Denmark, Poland area which saw almost complete disappearance of some groups. Could've been an epicenter of whatever it was killed them off.

    I used to think invasion was the cause but not anymore. The Invasion probably happened and it likely was one of the factors for the near extinction of farmers but It probably came after or accompanied some other cataclysmic event that weakened the continent.

    Famine is also a possibility albeit a less likely one. Famine can kill a lot of people but affect the huge chunk of the continent so completely ? I don't know.

    Those are two main reasons imo. Throughout history the times of great change and unrest are most often preceded by cataclysmic events like disease or climate change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    We're not disagreeing with you because we think he looks bad, no :) I just think he looks more European than Caucasian. I wouldn't be surprised if genetically he's mostly Indo-European with some middle eastern mix. Hell that kind of face is far more common in Europe and among European-Americans than in Caucasus. Don't confuse dark complexion with non European look. Armenians often Look more European than Caucasian if only their skin tones were lighter. For example Freddy reminds me of Andrew Lincoln more than any Georgian I've met.
    Attachment 10763
    Freddy Mercury is Indian admixed if anything.

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    Ratchet: I think Freddy was of Iranian ancestry, but his parents were from India. I actually think he is of Iranian ancestry, not of Indian ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Ratchet: I think Freddy was of Iranian ancestry, but his parents were from India. I actually think he is of Iranian ancestry, not of Indian ancestry.
    He is a Parsi. Parsis descend from a group of Iranians who left Iran and ended up in India around the time of the Arab invasion of the Sassanid empire. Freddy Mercury's ancestors were in India for 1200 years. And there is absolutely no doubt they admixed with the local Indian population (mostly females) in that time frame. They are about 2/3 to 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 to 1/3 Indian genetically.

    Despite this, we infer that Indian Zoroastrians (Parsis) intermixed with local groups sometime after their arrival in India, dating this mixture to 690–1390 CE and providing strong evidence that Iranian Zoroastrian ancestry was maintained primarily through the male line.


    In (1) and (2), we detected admixture in the Parsis dated to 27 (range: 17–38) and 32 (19–44) generations ago, respectively, in each case between one predominantly Indian-like source and one predominantly Iranian-like source. This large contribution from an Iranian-like source (∼64%–76%) is not seen in any of our other 7 Indian clusters, though we detect admixture in each of these 7 groups from wide-ranging sources related to modern day individuals from Bangladesh, Cambodia, Europe, Pakistan, or of Jewish heritage (Figures 2 and S7, Tables S5–S7)


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590844/

  20. #120
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Freddy was a Parsi, an Indian of distant Iranian ancestry. The Parsis were in India for centuries. Given the structure of Indian society, and the fact you can't really convert to Zoroastrianism, probably most of his ancestry was Iranian.

    He certainly didn't look a bit Indian imo. Salman Rushdie looks like he has more admixture.

    I actually was surprised to find out after his death that Freddy was a Parsi or of Iranian descent. He looked Southern European to me.

    Iranians are a heterogeneous group in my opinion. You can get a number of different looks.

    In this particular picture of Khomeini, shave the beard off and he looks like Sean Connery. No wonder Oriana Fallaci, after the interview in which she tore off the burka he had made her wear, called him that evil, magnificent looking old man. :) What a woman.


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    Ratchet/Angela: Ok, thanks for the further clarification. I agree with the Caste System of India would lessen any intermarrying and I just assumed his ancestors married within the Iranian Ethnic community. The Zoroastrianism angle is another one that suggests mostly Iranian.

    Sean Connery!, your correct, Always was is and ever will be my Favorite James Bond.

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    Yea 2/3 to 3/4 of his ancestry was Iranian as that article says. No different than jews taking native women wherever they went. The old Parsi ftdna project had a shitload of mtdna M.

  23. #123
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    ratchet_Man: Come on man, cool down on the admixture events where Men married local women, happens alot, I think the same thing happened wherever the Steppe herders went, married lots of local women. However, yes, the daughters I would guess, I don't know, were probably in arranged marriages with Iranian-Parsi men. I know nothing about Parsi culture but the daughter marrying a Hindu Man would probably mean she is no longer part of the Zoroastrianism community (just a hunch). However, I looked up this article and it does suggest that a full Parsi wedding includes the Parents blessing before it can occur in the Temple for their religion


    https://www.culturalindia.net/weddin...i-wedding.html

    So maybe Parsi Men who could not find a young Parsi Women to marry because no Parents would bless the Union had to wed local Indian women. How that non Parsi woman was recognized into their faith tradition, not sure, but the article you cited does suggest that: Here is a quote

    "The iMhg and Yhg frequency-based pairwise FST values indicate that through the male line the lay Parsis have a closer relationship to the lay Iranian Zoroastrians, but through the female line they have a closer relationship to the non-Zoroastrians from India"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    ratchet_Man: Come on man, cool down on the admixture events where Men married local women, happens alot, I think the same thing happened wherever the Steppe herders went, married lots of local women. However, yes, the daughters I would guess, I don't know, were probably in arranged marriages with Iranian-Parsi men. I know nothing about Parsi culture but the daughter marrying a Hindu Man would probably mean she is no longer part of the Zoroastrianism community (just a hunch). However, I looked up this article and it does suggest that a full Parsi wedding includes the Parents blessing before it can occur in the Temple for their religion


    https://www.culturalindia.net/weddin...i-wedding.html

    So maybe Parsi Men who could not find a young Parsi Women to marry because no Parents would bless the Union had to wed local Indian women. How that non Parsi woman was recognized into their faith tradition, not sure, but the article you cited does suggest that: Here is a quote

    "The iMhg and Yhg frequency-based pairwise FST values indicate that through the male line the lay Parsis have a closer relationship to the lay Iranian Zoroastrians, but through the female line they have a closer relationship to the non-Zoroastrians from India"
    I'm just pointing it out that they're admixed. Nothing wrong with it. Like you said happens everywhere.

  25. #125
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    ratchet_Fan: Ok, no problem. I was just wanting to stay focused on Freddy Mercury and his Parsi background and trying to understand his culture and family history and more about the Parsi in Iran. I had always assumed that the Iranians in India, thus Freddy Mercury's family, etc. had maintained a tightly structured ethnic community with no marriage outside their community. However, the article you linked indicated modern Parsi today have 25-33% admixture with Local people from India. That was good information.

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