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Thread: Talk on Ancient Italian/Roman DNA over in Stanford.

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    I didn't get the memo when suggesting that the original Roman founders being north Italian as being "Nordicist", or "Euro-centric". Last I checked, Italy was still Europe, but perhaps it's the fact that north Italians are genetically very close to French and Swiss that ruffled a few feathers. Obviously we're looking at a North-South cline in Italy which still exists and probably began during the LBA/Iron age with the arrival of people from the north/Alps area. Two different groups merging is exactly what this is, with additional Middle Eastern influence in the south in the later periods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps you should re-read the notes on the Republican period, which, after all, was the period of the "creation" of Rome. They were 60% modern Northern Italian like. Also, you're speculating far beyond the data we have.

    If you are referring to me, that is complete misinterpretation or deliberate misinformation, and extremely misleading. The truth is quite the contrary. What I said is that it might have started far back in the Neolithic, and might also have come with the Iran Neo like migrations of the Bronze Age. I argued about it constantly with people like Sikeliot and Fire Haired, who used to insist it all came from Near Eastern slaves and Moors. You're welcome to scour the site through the search engine and see if you can come up with anything to the contrary.

    The last person who so completely misunderstood people's posts and forgot even his own was Fire-Haired. You don't want to get a reputation for problems with reading comprehension.

    As for the "Levantine" signal it was sporadic, remember? It also disappeared. Perhaps it was the Jews leaving? The idea that the western Jews were formed by the admixture of Jewish men and some Italian women, a population which then went to France and the Rhineland, may need looking at again.
    The Levant Neolithic geneflow appeared after the bronze age, it didn't dissapear but the continuous gene flow from the Levant has stopped after the middle ages. Nobody is talking about Jews here. South Italians have considerable post neolithic Near Eastern admixture, no one can deny that it's obvious if you compare Sicilians to North Italians or even Tuscans the difference is significant both genetically, culturally and physically vise. Some slaves had come from the Near East, but most weren't slaves but free people who came as Christian 'Greeks' from the Eastern byzantine empire, many were Hellenized Syrians, Arameans, Assyrians, Armenians these people later assimilated into the Italian gene pool whether you like it or not but the ME gene flow is undeniable in Italians, especially in Southerners. The nordicist minority who keeps chanting that Italians are closely related to Southern French, and the dark Spainards are muh "North African" compared to Sicilians, especially the Maltese who have a special name called the Nordicum Maltese won't sleep for weeks. After the 1001 post on their miserable site on the internet which has intended from the beginning to demonstrate that Southerners don't look like Lebanese seem to fail understanding science, genetic and history and their fair tale of homogeneous Italic unity seems to collapse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I didn't get the memo when suggesting that the original Roman founders being north Italian as being "Nordicist", or "Euro-centric". Last I checked, Italy was still Europe, but perhaps it's the fact that north Italians are genetically very close to French and Swiss that ruffled a few feathers. Obviously we're looking at a North-South cline in Italy which still exists and probably began during the LBA/Iron age with the arrival of people from the north/Alps area. Two different groups merging is exactly what this is, with additional Middle Eastern influence in the south in the later periods.
    There are only 8 Iron Age samples. The bulk is from the Empire.

    The two groups didn't merge, one replaced the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgewalley View Post
    The Levant Neolithic geneflow appeared after the bronze age, it didn't dissapear but the continuous gene flow from the Levant has stopped after the middle ages. Nobody is talking about Jews here. South Italians have considerable post neolithic Near Eastern admixture, no one can deny that it's obvious if you compare Sicilians to North Italians or even Tuscans the difference is significant both genetically, culturally and physically vise. Some slaves had come from the Near East, but most weren't slaves but free people who came as Christian 'Greeks' from the Eastern byzantine empire, many were Hellenized Syrians, Arameans, Assyrians, Armenians these people later assimilated into the Italian gene pool whether you like it or not but the ME gene flow is undeniable in Italians, especially in Southerners.
    You really do have a reading comprehension problem. Read my post again. I never denied post Neolithic gene flow from the Near East.

    As for the rest it's your old ravings, completely unsupported by this paper and with no actual proof whatsoever. You might want to go over the notes once again. The changes didn't take place after the establishment of the Eastern Empire but before. The Hellenthal papers based on modern samples and positing "Near Eastern" gene flow in Late Antiquity has been falsified. The ROLL OFF program upon which they relied, and purporting to date gene flow has been proved wrong again, that's if they were even able to discern which group was the NEW group. As I said at the time, what they might have been seeing was Gallic and Germanic geneflow INTO a very southern European population. That would fit with this ancient dna and that from Collegno.



    I used to think you were Sikeliot or Azzurro, but they're smarter than this. You must be Drac. Go back to Stormfront where you belong. Those morons have been totally discredited and are irrelevant.

    Ed. This is where we addressed the Hellenthal hypotheses.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ght=Hellenthal
    Last edited by Angela; 07-02-19 at 21:28.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Since we only have 8 Iron Age samples, and we have a good number of samples from port cities, none from the south except from a small area with Beaker influence, and none from Northern Italy except Remedello and Parma Beaker, I think a great deal of caution is warranted.

    We're only talking about Lazio here. I don't know if 8 samples is enough to draw hard and fast conclusions about Republican Rome, but it might be suggestive of two populations. From the limited information we have, perhaps it was a question of patricians (more "Italic" ancestry) and plebeians, or maybe it was a case of indigenous Romans and new citizens from further south in Italy. How can we possibly know at this point?

    How can we know, also, how much samples from port cities or slave samples skewed the "average"? Hellenized Anatolian merchants and Greek ones as well might be artificially changing the balance.

    As for the "sporadic" Levantine intrusion, that "tail" toward Syria disappears. I don't know why. We can't know why until we have more info about the samples.

    We need to see the paper, and they need to provide not only detailed burial information but isotope information so we know the rough percentages of movement from within the peninsula versus from without, even with all the limitations of isotope analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I didn't get the memo when suggesting that the original Roman founders being north Italian as being "Nordicist", or "Euro-centric". Last I checked, Italy was still Europe, but perhaps it's the fact that north Italians are genetically very close to French and Swiss that ruffled a few feathers. Obviously we're looking at a North-South cline in Italy which still exists and probably began during the LBA/Iron age with the arrival of people from the north/Alps area. Two different groups merging is exactly what this is, with additional Middle Eastern influence in the south in the later periods.
    Northern Italians are actually genetically closest to Iberians, not the French, although if we had samples from Provence that might be the exception. They are similar ONLY to the Italian speaking Swiss, NOT the German or French Swiss. Switzerland is very stratified not only linguistically but ethnically. Nor are we talking here about the people of the Veneto or Friuli, since they are undoutedly using the academic samples from Bergamo and perhaps Piemonte.

    So, sorry to disappoint, but still a Southern European population with a respectable chunk of "West Asian" in the old calculators.

    Ed. For our Iberian friends on other sites, I'm sorry to disappoint, but none of the Iron Age Republican samples are "Iberian" or "French" like ....they are Northern Italian like. :)
    Last edited by Angela; 07-02-19 at 21:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    or the Danubian admixed Terramare...

    Utilizzando Tapatalk
    could be, but the expansion of cremation in Europe is linked to somewhat related IE languages in this case, Italic, Celtic, Lusitanian, Ligurian, and what more.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think we perhaps should review the dates for the expansion of Roman control. Most of it was done before the advent of the imperium under Augustus.

    This shows the expansion year by year very clearly, and also helpfully lists the appearance of the great generals. The expansion began in earnest in the mid-300's B.C., but the height of the Empire and the Pax Romana was much later.



    I would think there's enough glory to cover both periods. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You really do have a reading comprehension problem. Read my post again. I never denied post Neolithic gene flow from the Near East.

    As for the rest it's your old ravings, completely unsupported by this paper and with no actual proof whatsoever. You might want to go over the notes once again. The changes didn't take place after the establishment of the Eastern Empire but before. The Hellenthal papers based on modern samples and positing "Near Eastern" gene flow in Late Antiquity has been falsified. The ROLL OFF program upon which they relied, and purporting to date gene flow has been proved wrong again, that's if they were even able to discern which group was the NEW group. As I said at the time, what they might have been seeing was Gallic and Germanic geneflow INTO a very southern European population. That would fit with this ancient dna and that from Collegno.



    I used to think you were Sikeliot or Azzurro, but they're smarter than this. You must be Drac. Go back to Stormfront where you belong. Those morons have been totally discredited and are irrelevant.

    Ed. This is where we addressed the Hellenthal hypotheses.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ght=Hellenthal
    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.
    EHG appears, Levant N Appears for the first time, sporadic and inhomogeneous distribution, Iran_N increases further.

    IMPERIAL PERIOD
    Dense cluster centroid between Greeks, Cypriots, South Italians/Sicilians, and Syrians, closest to Sicilians. Long tail stretching from central cluster to Syrians and Iraqi Jews. Couple of Northern-shifted samples overlapping N Italy, France, Spain.
    Iran_N increases further, Levant N again sporadic and inhomogeneous.


    LATE ANTIQUITY
    Tight cluster centroid in S Italy, in the same place as in the previous period. Southern tail to Middle East disappears. N Italian, Northern European and NW European outliers exist.

    AFTER
    Resemble modern central Italians.
    The Near Eastern like outliers dissapeared after the antiquity because they were later absorbed into the genepool, it's not the same as the Near Eastern aka. Levant N admixture dissapeared rather widespreaded into furthern north and became more balanced out with less regional differences, well Sicilians have around ~20% Levant Neolithic like admixture while Northerners have less than 5%.

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    Well, if the long tail to Syrians and Iraqi Jews appears in the Imperial Period, Levant_N having been found in non-significant proportions before, and that tail disappears by the Late Antiquity, then it seems to me that those people did not represent the bulk of the indigenous population and probably were not representative of the people who lived beyond the walls of the port towns and metropolises. It seems to me then that the average, general population was genetically like South Italians. The "northern shift" in most of South Europe after the Late Antiquity seems to have been a consistent pattern in many regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's amazing how obsessed the posters on anthrogenica are about Italian genetic history when they aren't even Italian. I wonder why? :)
    Indeed. :)

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    All in all, the current findings point to Italy's overall structure by the empire's founding under Augustus being similar enough to modern Italians (northern to center populations shifted to Iberians, southerners shifted to Mycenaeans). And it still doesn't support Nordicism/Attempts To Project Post-Columbian Racial Policies Onto Romans since there's no actual evidence of some Indian style caste system or less north shifted Italians being discriminated against by Caesar's day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    All in all, the current findings point to Italy's overall structure by the empire's founding under Augustus being similar enough to modern Italians (northern to center populations shifted to Iberians, southerners shifted to Mycenaeans). And it still doesn't support Nordicism/Attempts To Project Post-Columbian Racial Policies Onto Romans since there's no actual evidence of some Indian style caste system or less north shifted Italians being discriminated against by Caesar's day.
    It does seem like there was a separate class of Northern Italian-like people though. Also obviously though, not Northern European-like.

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    Okay, so the Iran_N appears at the START of the Neolithic in Italy - I confirmed it with Moots herself. Now I'm confused.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgewalley View Post
    The Near Eastern like outliers dissapeared after the antiquity because they were later absorbed into the genepool, it's not the same as the Near Eastern aka. Levant N admixture dissapeared rather widespreaded into furthern north and became more balanced out with less regional differences, well Sicilians have around ~20% Levant Neolithic like admixture while Northerners have less than 5%.
    OMG! READ! IT DISAPPEARS BY LATE ANTIQUITY NOT AFTER.

    Hellenthal was wrong, and so were you. Great over it.

    This is like when you couldn't comprehend pigmentation papers.

    You're done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It does seem like there was a separate class of Northern Italian-like people though. Also obviously though, not Northern European-like.
    How could you possibly know that, since we don't have the burial contexts of the samples? You really love to wildly speculate. What about Etruscans? They were Kings of Rome. Are you sure they were Northern Italian like? What if they too are closer to Southern Italians?

    Okay, so the Iran_N appears at the START of the Neolithic in Italy - I confirmed it with Moots herself. Now I'm confused.
    Why? Go back and look at the Peloponnese Neolithic samples, especially the "outlier".

    Perhaps it will turn out as I always hoped: migration of Minoan like peoples into Italy. They're my favorite ancient civilization, apart from Etruscans.

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    Earlier in the thread, its been pointed out that we don't have isotope information to tell the locals from the migrants so we can't draw any conclusion about anything yet. We don't know where they're from.

    (yes some samples are obviously from elsewhere like the Middle Eastern ones)
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    Significant immigration into Central to Northern Italy is more Imperial than Republican. And even with the slavery Romans didn't target on ethnicity/race (so before the Last Punic War and Caesar's Conquests plenty of slaves should be Italian).

    As I said, the evidence supports continuity with Modern Italy's structure (ranging from Iberian-like to Aegean-like from the Republic on).

    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It does seem like there was a separate class of Northern Italian-like people though. Also obviously though, not Northern European-like.
    You need to show there was a caste system with discrimination for them to be a "class."

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How could you possibly know that, since we don't have the burial contexts of the samples? You really love to wildly speculate. What about Etruscans? They were Kings of Rome. Are you sure they were Northern Italian like? What if they too are closer to Southern Italians?
    One of the Etruscan kings of Rome was half Greek. The use of words like "north Italian" or "south Italian" is useless in this context (the beginning of the historical period). These terms are only used because users have very little archaeological knowledge and oversimplify everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Earlier in the thread, its been pointed out that we don't have isotope information to tell the locals from the migrants so we can't draw any conclusion about anything yet. We don't know where they're from.

    That's a serious question. What would the analysis of the isotope of the bone remains of a second-generation New Yorker born and bred in NY to non-New Yorker parents tell?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How could you possibly know that, since we don't have the burial contexts of the samples? You really love to wildly speculate. What about Etruscans? They were Kings of Rome. Are you sure they were Northern Italian like? What if they too are closer to Southern Italians?

    Why? Go back and look at the Peloponnese Neolithic samples, especially the "outlier".

    Perhaps it will turn out as I always hoped: migration of Minoan like peoples into Italy. They're my favorite ancient civilization, apart from Etruscans.
    I'd guess the Etruscans were Minoan-like - I think both were Y DNA J-rich of the Anatolian branch that spread across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age. The Italics, though, ultimately surely derive their ancestry from the Steppe Bell Beakers - though, as mentioned, they only had Northern Italian levels of Steppe. In the early stages of Italic development in Northern Italy, I'd guess they were more Swiss-like though.

    As for Iran_N - Moots told me herself that it spread BEFORE the Copper Age. I'm now 100% sure, in my mind at least, that this is from the Cardium Pottery culture, which has roots around the Upper Euphrates (rather than the typical 1st wave Balkan EEFs, who derive from Western and Central Anatolia). These EEFs probably entered Italy at some point after Cardium Pottery folk, accounting for the dilution in Iran_N ancestry. I still think Iran_N would have spread across the Mediterranean with copper metallurgy, but perhaps (as this would have been an elite migration for sure) it didn't have much of an impact genetically.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I'd guess the Etruscans were Minoan-like - I think both were Y DNA J-rich of the Anatolian branch that spread across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age.
    There's no evidence that the Etruscans were Minoan-like. Not even linguistic, and less than ever archaeological. Anyway the original nucleus of the Minoans eventually comes from the EEFs, and they were not very different from the Mycenaeans except for a small percentage of EHG. Y-DNA J is not particularly widespread in modern Etruscan areas, its peaks are in non-Etruscan areas in Italy, not to mention the fact that J means nothing because the different branches of all its subclasses have very varied dispersion.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    The Italics, though, ultimately surely derive their ancestry from the Steppe Bell Beakers - though, as mentioned, they only had Northern Italian levels of Steppe. In the early stages of Italic development in Northern Italy, I'd guess they were more Swiss-like though.

    There is no archeological evidence that Italics derive their ancestry from the Steppe Bell Beakers either. Italics arrived between MBA and LBA, unlikely earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I'd guess the Etruscans were Minoan-like - I think both were Y DNA J-rich of the Anatolian branch that spread across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age. The Italics, though, ultimately surely derive their ancestry from the Steppe Bell Beakers - though, as mentioned, they only had Northern Italian levels of Steppe. In the early stages of Italic development in Northern Italy, I'd guess they were more Swiss-like though.

    As for Iran_N - Moots told me herself that it spread BEFORE the Copper Age. I'm now 100% sure, in my mind at least, that this is from the Cardium Pottery culture, which has roots around the Upper Euphrates (rather than the typical 1st wave Balkan EEFs, who derive from Western and Central Anatolia).
    The "first wave" of farmers to leave the Near East left from the land where southeastern Turkey meets Syria, so, the juncture between Anatolia and the Levant, although those terms are irrelevant in the time periods we're discussing. We know they went to Cyprus. Perhaps they went on to Crete and then Italy. Or perhaps some of the Peloponnese Neolithic people went on to Italy. We just don't know yet.

    Certainly, Cardial has nothing to do with Mesopotamia.




    As for "classes" in Roman society, of course they existed. There were Patricians and Plebeians after all, but even by the time of Caesar that was all disappearing.

    Caesar's aunt Julia (the Julii were among the elite of the elite in terms of patrician ancestry) married Marius, an upstart of rural equestrian origin, and Marcus Agrippa, who was lieutenant, friend, and son-on-in law of Augustus was of humble plebeian origin from the countryside.

    Ancient Rome was not ancient India or even the Britain of the 19th century.

    They also weren't necessarily big on blood tie genealogy. Adoption was a very important part of Roman family life.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Vipsanius_Agrippa


    For that matter, Marc Anthony was a plebeian, and again, colleague and friend of Caesar, and married into the imperial family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The "first wave" of farmers to leave the Near East left from the land where southeastern Turkey meets Syria, so, the juncture between Anatolia and the Levant, although those terms are irrelevant in the time periods we're discussing. We know they went to Cyprus. Perhaps they went on to Crete and then Italy. Or perhaps some of the Peloponnese Neolithic people went on to Italy. We just don't know yet.

    Certainly, Cardial has nothing to do with Mesopotamia.

    As for "classes" in Roman society, of course they existed. There were Patricians and Plebeians after all, but even by the time of Caesar that was all disappearing.

    Caesar's aunt Julia (the Julii were among the elite of the elite in terms of patrician ancestry) married Marius, an upstate of rural equestrian origin, and Marcus Agrippa, who was lieutenant, friend, and son-on-in law of Augustus was of humble plebeian origin from the countryside.

    Ancient Rome was not ancient India or even the Britain of the 19th century.

    They also weren't necessarily big on blood tie genealogy. Adoption was a very important part of Roman family life.
    Cardium pottery does derive from the Upper Euphrates-Levant region though - it seems to have spread via sea from the Aleppo plateau to the Adriatic and Italy (later Spain), before heading down into Tunisia and (in my opinion) eventually spreading into Africa. This is probably (again, imo) how Y DNA T, R1b-V88 etc. ended up in the Sahel among the Chadic branch.

    Also there's no evidence that the EEF ancestry of the Balkans is from a farming wave originating East of Central Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I'm now 100% sure, in my mind at least, that this is from the Cardium Pottery culture, which has roots around the Upper Euphrates (rather than the typical 1st wave Balkan EEFs, who derive from Western and Central Anatolia).
    There are 3 Cardial Pottery culture samples from Croatia (I3433, I3947, I3948) who are plain EEF with no extra CHG or anything. I don't know if this is the same group you are thinking of.

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