Pax Augusta
Elite member
It's amazing how obsessed the posters on anthrogenica are about Italian genetic history when they aren't even Italian. I wonder why?
Indeed.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
It's amazing how obsessed the posters on anthrogenica are about Italian genetic history when they aren't even Italian. I wonder why?
All in all, the current findings point to Italy's overall structure by the empire's founding under Augustus being similar enough to modern Italians (northern to center populations shifted to Iberians, southerners shifted to Mycenaeans). And it still doesn't support Nordicism/Attempts To Project Post-Columbian Racial Policies Onto Romans since there's no actual evidence of some Indian style caste system or less north shifted Italians being discriminated against by Caesar's day.
The Near Eastern like outliers dissapeared after the antiquity because they were later absorbed into the genepool, it's not the same as the Near Eastern aka. Levant N admixture dissapeared rather widespreaded into furthern north and became more balanced out with less regional differences, well Sicilians have around ~20% Levant Neolithic like admixture while Northerners have less than 5%.
It does seem like there was a separate class of Northern Italian-like people though. Also obviously though, not Northern European-like.
Okay, so the Iran_N appears at the START of the Neolithic in Italy - I confirmed it with Moots herself. Now I'm confused.
It does seem like there was a separate class of Northern Italian-like people though. Also obviously though, not Northern European-like.
How could you possibly know that, since we don't have the burial contexts of the samples? You really love to wildly speculate. What about Etruscans? They were Kings of Rome. Are you sure they were Northern Italian like? What if they too are closer to Southern Italians?
Earlier in the thread, its been pointed out that we don't have isotope information to tell the locals from the migrants so we can't draw any conclusion about anything yet. We don't know where they're from.
How could you possibly know that, since we don't have the burial contexts of the samples? You really love to wildly speculate. What about Etruscans? They were Kings of Rome. Are you sure they were Northern Italian like? What if they too are closer to Southern Italians?
Why? Go back and look at the Peloponnese Neolithic samples, especially the "outlier".
Perhaps it will turn out as I always hoped: migration of Minoan like peoples into Italy. They're my favorite ancient civilization, apart from Etruscans.
I'd guess the Etruscans were Minoan-like - I think both were Y DNA J-rich of the Anatolian branch that spread across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age.
The Italics, though, ultimately surely derive their ancestry from the Steppe Bell Beakers - though, as mentioned, they only had Northern Italian levels of Steppe. In the early stages of Italic development in Northern Italy, I'd guess they were more Swiss-like though.
I'd guess the Etruscans were Minoan-like - I think both were Y DNA J-rich of the Anatolian branch that spread across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age. The Italics, though, ultimately surely derive their ancestry from the Steppe Bell Beakers - though, as mentioned, they only had Northern Italian levels of Steppe. In the early stages of Italic development in Northern Italy, I'd guess they were more Swiss-like though.
As for Iran_N - Moots told me herself that it spread BEFORE the Copper Age. I'm now 100% sure, in my mind at least, that this is from the Cardium Pottery culture, which has roots around the Upper Euphrates (rather than the typical 1st wave Balkan EEFs, who derive from Western and Central Anatolia).
The "first wave" of farmers to leave the Near East left from the land where southeastern Turkey meets Syria, so, the juncture between Anatolia and the Levant, although those terms are irrelevant in the time periods we're discussing. We know they went to Cyprus. Perhaps they went on to Crete and then Italy. Or perhaps some of the Peloponnese Neolithic people went on to Italy. We just don't know yet.
Certainly, Cardial has nothing to do with Mesopotamia.
As for "classes" in Roman society, of course they existed. There were Patricians and Plebeians after all, but even by the time of Caesar that was all disappearing.
Caesar's aunt Julia (the Julii were among the elite of the elite in terms of patrician ancestry) married Marius, an upstate of rural equestrian origin, and Marcus Agrippa, who was lieutenant, friend, and son-on-in law of Augustus was of humble plebeian origin from the countryside.
Ancient Rome was not ancient India or even the Britain of the 19th century.
They also weren't necessarily big on blood tie genealogy. Adoption was a very important part of Roman family life.
There are 3 Cardial Pottery culture samples from Croatia (I3433, I3947, I3948) who are plain EEF with no extra CHG or anything. I don't know if this is the same group you are thinking of.I'm now 100% sure, in my mind at least, that this is from the Cardium Pottery culture, which has roots around the Upper Euphrates (rather than the typical 1st wave Balkan EEFs, who derive from Western and Central Anatolia).
DNA from the Ostia crypt should be a good representative of Roman/Iron Age Central Italian DNA.
It does seem like there was a separate class of Northern Italian-like people though. Also obviously though, not Northern European-like.
There are 3 Cardial Pottery culture samples from Croatia (I3433, I3947, I3948) who are plain EEF with no extra CHG or anything. I don't know if this is the same group you are thinking of.
Oh, come on, there aren't enough samples to talk of a "separate class of Northern Italian-like people". The only thing that can be said is that there were Northern Italian-like INDIVIDUALS in Central Italy at that time. Not surprising considering how integrated economically and socially the Italian peninsula had become. There is nothing to suggest they were a "class" of their own. They might just have come from a place with a different genetic structure from the local one, nothing else.
The "first wave" of farmers to leave the Near East left from the land where southeastern Turkey meets Syria, so, the juncture between Anatolia and the Levant, although those terms are irrelevant in the time periods we're discussing. We know they went to Cyprus. Perhaps they went on to Crete and then Italy. Or perhaps some of the Peloponnese Neolithic people went on to Italy. We just don't know yet.
Certainly, Cardial has nothing to do with Mesopotamia.
As for "classes" in Roman society, of course they existed. There were Patricians and Plebeians after all, but even by the time of Caesar that was all disappearing.
Caesar's aunt Julia (the Julii were among the elite of the elite in terms of patrician ancestry) married Marius, an upstart of rural equestrian origin, and Marcus Agrippa, who was lieutenant, friend, and son-on-in law of Augustus was of humble plebeian origin from the countryside.
Ancient Rome was not ancient India or even the Britain of the 19th century.
They also weren't necessarily big on blood tie genealogy. Adoption was a very important part of Roman family life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Vipsanius_Agrippa
For that matter, Marc Anthony was a plebeian, and again, colleague and friend of Caesar, and married into the imperial family.
This thread has been viewed 40699 times.