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Thread: Question on eye and skin color

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's irrelevant what snps Afontova Gora carried, or older steppe groups, for that matter. What is at issue with the question of whether the "STEPPE" people (Pontic Caspian steppe people like Yamnaya and Catacomb, i.e. the original Indo-Europeans) brought blonde hair to Europe further west is whether the steppe people carried traits associated with blonde hair. They didn't.


    Afontova Gora was a "STEPPE" person. None of the groups you mentioned are "original Indo-Europeans." They are proposed as being proto-Indo Europeans -- they also didn't directly contribute to Western or northeastern European DNA.



    Furthermore, you're leaving out one important similar group: Samara. The Samara man is contemporaneous with Yamnaya, and actually is part of an R1b branch that contributed to western Europeans. Samara was blond haired, and given the spread of blond hair associated with movement of proto-Indo Europeans, there can be little doubt that they were blond.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samara_culture


    Samara culture is the archaeological term for an eneolithic culture that blooms around the turn of the 5th millennium BC,[note 1] located in the Samara bend region of the upper Volga River (modern Russia). The Samara culture is regarded as related to contemporaneous or subsequent prehistoric cultures of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, such as the Khvalynsk, Repin and Yamna (or Yamnya) cultures.[1] The Proto-Indo-European homeland is often linked to one or more of these cultures.

    Steppe admixture in to EHG and also by proxy, Motala SHG further confirms that the Steppe invaders bore the blond hair in to Europe. Also, those Yamnaya you refer to (eastern Ukranian Yamnaya) actually did have a blond individual among them.


    Forensic calculators used all their snps and the prediction is dark hair and dark eyes. They weren't even particularly fair skinned. The papers are clear.

    Forensic calculators used on one or two samples, among populations that could have had other admixtures, etc etc. The paper I cited is clear: blond hair comes from the steppe (ANE and EHG). An actual fact.

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    Now with all due respect to mother Angela, I would just like to re-emphasize:
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616


    The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with and likely causal for blond hair in Europeans [4,5] is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the [Siberian] ANE individual Afontova Gora 3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (1471060 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
    The following is an excerpt from David Reich's recent book:

    The fusion of these highly different populations into todays West Eurasians is vividly evident in what might be considered the classic northern European look: blue eyes, light skin, and blond hair. Analysis of ancient DNA data shows that western European hunter-gatherers around eight thousand years ago had blue eyes but dark skin and dark hair, a combination that is rare today.33 The first farmers of Europe mostly had light skin but dark hair and brown eyesthus light skin in Europe largely owes its origins to migrating farmers.34 The earliest known example of the classic European blond hair mutation is in an Ancient North Eurasian from the Lake Baikal region of eastern Siberia from seventeen thousand years ago.35 The hundreds of millions of copies of this mutation in central and western Europe today likely derive from a massive migration into the region of people bearing Ancient North Eurasian ancestry.
    Blond hair is not a European trait and never was, that trait comes from damn near Mongolia. No European ever evolved blond hair on their own; it had to come from Steppe migrations, including proto-Indo Europeans like Samara. Blond hair was also always more common on the Eurasian steppe than in Europe even after blond hair became fixed in Europe, suggesting a nucleus there. The latest fully-blond archaeological complex in the fossil record (so far) is found in none other than the Taschtyk series near the Yenisei river, which is analogous to the Yenisei Kirghiz, who like other groups in the area, were predominantly blond.

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    I saw Lazaridis do the same typo as this Reich exerpt. But Afontova Gora is absolutely not on the Baikal Region. It's near Krasnoyarsk, it's almost 1000 KM from the Lake Baikal. He mingle it with Mal'ta boy wich is near the Baikal.

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    ^ I don't think it's a typo; it's not far from Lake Baikal (especially not in terms of hunter gatherer mobility) and it's the only major geographical feature to link AG to.




    "Lake Baikal region" doesn't mean "shores of Lake Baikal."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Now with all due respect to mother Angela, I would just like to re-emphasize:
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616




    The following is an excerpt from David Reich's recent book:



    Blond hair is not a European trait and never was, that trait comes from damn near Mongolia. No European ever evolved blond hair on their own; it had to come from Steppe migrations, including proto-Indo Europeans like Samara. Blond hair was also always more common on the Eurasian steppe than in Europe even after blond hair became fixed in Europe, suggesting a nucleus there. The latest fully-blond archaeological complex in the fossil record (so far) is found in none other than the Taschtyk series near the Yenisei river, which is analogous to the Yenisei Kirghiz, who like other groups in the area, were predominantly blond.
    Please read what I said carefully. There's way too much loose talk and confusion in the amateur community.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please read what I said carefully. There's way too much loose talk and confusion in the amateur community.
    I did read what you said carefully and I also used the search function. Very disappointing. The Eupedia files are outdated and do not contain links to the Mathieson et. al paper which I published. Did you read what I said? Eupedia needs to be updated.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Dark skin is a protective factor against sunlight. On the principle of resource economy, the body no longer produces the pigment because it is no longer necessary at high and cold latitudes where man is protected from sun high level of radiation also by the clothing he has to wear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    I did read what you said carefully and I also used the search function. Very disappointing. The Eupedia files are outdated and do not contain links to the Mathieson et. al paper which I published. Did you read what I said? Eupedia needs to be updated.
    Let me see if I can make this easier.

    This is how you use our search engine:

    1) go to the search engine bar
    2) type in The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al (You know, the title and author)
    3. CLICK

    Voila! It took me under thirty seconds.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Mathiesen

    Every major new paper, and some not so major, that comes along is posted and discussed here.

    You might want to look at the dedicated thread for the really important papers. I haven't updated it in the last month or so, but I will.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Mathiesen

    Keep on insulting Maciamo's site and you'll be off it pretty shortly.

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    Ok, thank you for clarifying that you were talking about the Eupedia forum search function rather than the Eupedia site. I will assume you have an encyclopedic knowledge of every discussion that has occurred on the Mathieson paper; so do you have any specific part of the paper you want to critique in this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Ok, thank you for clarifying that you were talking about the Eupedia forum search function rather than the Eupedia site . I will assume you have an encyclopedic knowledge of every discussion that has occurred on the Mathieson paper; so do you have any specific part of the paper you want to critique in this thread?
    As a matter of fact, I think some of his graphics are very confusing. He jumbles together the WHG, SHG, and EHG, and also various sites and time periods on the steppe.

    What he should have done is give the results for all of the groups separately.

    This is not one of my favorites of the Reich Lab papers. Neither is the South Asian one. They can't score A+ all the time.

    If you want to know what I thought of the paper at the time you just have to read the thread.

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    Are there any EHG samples where we have the eye, hair colour and skin pigmentation ?

    IIRC Andronovo culture picked up their hair colour from farming communities in Belarus and went East about 1000 years later than their partial Yamnaya ancestors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As a matter of fact, I think some of his graphics are very confusing. He jumbles together the WHG, SHG, and EHG, and also various sites and time periods on the steppe.

    What he should have done is give the results for all of the groups separately.

    This is not one of my favorites of the Reich Lab papers. Neither is the South Asian one. They can't score A+ all the time.

    If you want to know what I thought of the paper at the time you just have to read the thread.
    If you haven't read the following, it might be informative:

    Gamba et al:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncom..._theme=enabled

    Sandra Wilde et al
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977302/

    A paper on the Levantine Chalcolithic with its surprising pigmentation data:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=pigmentation

    A paper dedicated to the genomics of hair color, which might interest you. Single snps are VERY unreliable.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=pigmentation

    All the papers were discussed here. Please use the search engine...the proper one. :)


    @Anfanger,
    To the best of my recollection the early EHG had dark hair, dark eyes, but fair skin. Someone who has the data flagged in their files can perhaps chime in with some links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Now with all due respect to mother Angela, I would just like to re-emphasize:
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616
    The following is an excerpt from David Reich's recent book:
    Blond hair is not a European trait and never was, that trait comes from damn near Mongolia. No European ever evolved blond hair on their own; it had to come from Steppe migrations, including proto-Indo Europeans like Samara. Blond hair was also always more common on the Eurasian steppe than in Europe even after blond hair became fixed in Europe, suggesting a nucleus there. The latest fully-blond archaeological complex in the fossil record (so far) is found in none other than the Taschtyk series near the Yenisei river, which is analogous to the Yenisei Kirghiz, who like other groups in the area, were predominantly blond.
    Don't you think these blondism alleles are more likely to have come from the West Eurasian portion of the AG's/ANE's ancestry? Blond East Eurasians are rare after all.

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    I see. Well, on page 1, we are in agreement:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post508123

    Blonde hair is from ANE:
    I could not find any other posts regarding this subject matter using the search function. User Aaron1981 did leave a pertinent comment:

    One of the R1b-Z2103 males was a carrier for blonde hair, and I believe one of the older papers had a BB male positive for a red haired SNP. Both were reported in the actual paper, so this isn't a third party character running low quality data. Just a FYI, not that anyone asked. I believe a R1b-U152 Roman age Briton was also a blonde too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Don't you think these blondism alleles are more likely to have come from the West Eurasian portion of the AG's/ANE's ancestry? Blond East Eurasians are rare after all.
    Why are you linking this to geography? Afontova Gora was essentially fully "West Eurasian" genetically, but the blond hair allele undoubtedly evolved in East Eurasia. There are no blond hairs in Europe prior to the migration of far easterly Steppe populations to the Europe side of the steppe, and later to Scandinavia


    Blond hair today is not so rare in Western Mongolia, southeast Russia and Kyrgyzstan. If current trends persist this area will indeed be blonder than whites in Europe and America in a century (consider that Euro America is 75% less blond than it was 100 years ago).

    Then we have the very problematic existence of the Copper Inuit..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond_Eskimos

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Samara was pre-R1b-M478. Not a very successful lineage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Why are you linking this to geography? Afontova Gora was essentially fully "West Eurasian" genetically, but the blond hair alleles undoubtedly evolved in East Eurasia. There are no blond hairs in Europe prior to the migration of Steppe populations to Eastern Europe.

    Blond hair today is not so rare in Western Mongolia, southeast Russia and Kyrgyzstan. If current trends persist this area will indeed be blonder than whites in Europe and America in a century (consider that America is 75% less blond than it was 100 years ago).


    Then we have the very problematic existence of the Copper Inuit..
    AG/ANE were a mix of East Eurasian and West Eurasian ancestries.

    I really think the blonds in those areas are a minority. There are many cherry picked images on the Internet, but in crowds blonds are exceedingly rare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Are there any EHG samples where we have the eye, hair colour and skin pigmentation ?

    IIRC Andronovo culture picked up their hair colour from farming communities in Belarus and went East about 1000 years later than their partial Yamnaya ancestors.
    If there are then I haven't seen those. I'm aware of these.Attachment 10719

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    AG/ANE were a mix of East Eurasian and West Eurasian ancestries.
    Not Afontova Gora 2 & 3. You're referring to Mal'ta-Buret 1, which did have about 25% East Eurasian admix. Afontova Gora didn't really have any, and were essentially fully West Eurasian.

    I really think the blonds in those areas are a minority. There are many cherry picked images on the Internet, but in crowds blonds are exceedingly rare.

    Crowds occur in urban areas where the DNA and genetics are different; there are no crowds in Western Mongolia but the blondness is very real. Of course they are a minority today but that's beside the point; blond hair is in the minority in Europe as well including Northern Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    AG/ANE were a mix of East Eurasian and West Eurasian ancestries.

    I really think the blonds in those areas are a minority. There are many cherry picked images on the Internet, but in crowds blonds are exceedingly rare.
    I have been to Southern Central Asia and the Pamir mountains when I served in the German Army. I just saw two kids with red hair and very pale skin and this properly linked to the Indo-Iranians(Andronovo), not one with blonde but I have to say blue eyes are wider spread. I remember a dude with very dark skin and blue eyes, really exotic but most people looked either like Central Asian Uzbeks or Middle Easteners. Also the modern distribution of R1b-Z2103 doesn't correlate with blondism: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...n-of-R1b-Z2103

    Also we have Iran_Neo with a huge amount of ANE (about 35%).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Not Afontova Gora 2 & 3. You're referring to Mal'ta-Buret 1, which did have about 25% East Eurasian admix. Afontova Gora didn't really have any, and was essentially fully West Eurasian.
    Crowds occur in urban areas where the DNA and genetics are different; there are no crowds in Western Mongolia but the blondness is very real. Of course they are a minority today but that's beside the point; blond hair is in the minority in Europe as well including Northern Europe.
    The AGs have ANE ancestry - they're just more shifted towards West Eurasia. There's a cline from ANS - > ANE - > AG - > EHG in terms of East/West Eurasian ancestries. All of them have both though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The AGs have ANE ancestry - they're just more shifted towards West Eurasia. There's a cline from ANS - > ANE - > AG - > EHG in terms of East/West Eurasian ancestries. All of them have both though.
    The AG are ANE and they have less than 10% East Eurasian ancestry. ANE has nothing to do with "East" or "West Eurasia".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I have been to Southern Central Asia and the Pamir mountains when I served in the German Army. I just saw two kids with red hair and very pale skin and this properly linked to the Indo-Iranians(Andronovo), not one with blonde but I have to say blue eyes are wider spread. I remember a dude with very dark skin and blue eyes, really exotic but most people looked either like Central Asian Uzbeks or Middle Easteners. Also the modern distribution of R1b-Z2103 doesn't correlate with blondism: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...n-of-R1b-Z2103
    Also we have Iran_Neo with a huge amount of ANE (about 35%).
    Yeah, as expected. Anecdotally I'd say that blonds are much more common among Arab Palestinians and Syrians for example. I doubt it's the ANE. There are quite a few SNPs associated with light hair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    The AG are ANE and they have less than 10% East Eurasian ancestry. ANE has nothing to do with "East" or "West Eurasia".
    But you just said that AG has East Eurasian ancestry

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    Markod -- I see reading is not your forte. Did you see the part where I also said they have West Eurasian ancestry?


    Recap:

    Afontova Gora are ANE.

    Afontova Gora are genetically West Eurasia.

    Afontova Gora had less than 10% East Eurasian ancestry.

    ANE = a branch of West Eurasians.

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    Color?! The world has real problems as well...

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