Question on eye and skin color

Samara was pre-R1b-M478. Not a very successful lineage.

Why are you linking this to geography? Afontova Gora was essentially fully "West Eurasian" genetically, but the blond hair alleles undoubtedly evolved in East Eurasia. There are no blond hairs in Europe prior to the migration of Steppe populations to Eastern Europe.

Blond hair today is not so rare in Western Mongolia, southeast Russia and Kyrgyzstan. If current trends persist this area will indeed be blonder than whites in Europe and America in a century (consider that America is 75% less blond than it was 100 years ago).


Then we have the very problematic existence of the Copper Inuit..

AG/ANE were a mix of East Eurasian and West Eurasian ancestries.

I really think the blonds in those areas are a minority. There are many cherry picked images on the Internet, but in crowds blonds are exceedingly rare.
 
Are there any EHG samples where we have the eye, hair colour and skin pigmentation ?

IIRC Andronovo culture picked up their hair colour from farming communities in Belarus and went East about 1000 years later than their partial Yamnaya ancestors.

If there are then I haven't seen those. I'm aware of these.View attachment 10719
 
AG/ANE were a mix of East Eurasian and West Eurasian ancestries.

Not Afontova Gora 2 & 3. You're referring to Mal'ta-Buret 1, which did have about 25% East Eurasian admix. Afontova Gora didn't really have any, and were essentially fully West Eurasian.

I really think the blonds in those areas are a minority. There are many cherry picked images on the Internet, but in crowds blonds are exceedingly rare.


Crowds occur in urban areas where the DNA and genetics are different; there are no crowds in Western Mongolia but the blondness is very real. Of course they are a minority today but that's beside the point; blond hair is in the minority in Europe as well including Northern Europe.
 
AG/ANE were a mix of East Eurasian and West Eurasian ancestries.

I really think the blonds in those areas are a minority. There are many cherry picked images on the Internet, but in crowds blonds are exceedingly rare.

I have been to Southern Central Asia and the Pamir mountains when I served in the German Army. I just saw two kids with red hair and very pale skin and this properly linked to the Indo-Iranians(Andronovo), not one with blonde but I have to say blue eyes are wider spread. I remember a dude with very dark skin and blue eyes, really exotic but most people looked either like Central Asian Uzbeks or Middle Easteners. Also the modern distribution of R1b-Z2103 doesn't correlate with blondism: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30881-Modern-distribution-of-R1b-Z2103

Also we have Iran_Neo with a huge amount of ANE (about 35%).
 
Not Afontova Gora 2 & 3. You're referring to Mal'ta-Buret 1, which did have about 25% East Eurasian admix. Afontova Gora didn't really have any, and was essentially fully West Eurasian.
Crowds occur in urban areas where the DNA and genetics are different; there are no crowds in Western Mongolia but the blondness is very real. Of course they are a minority today but that's beside the point; blond hair is in the minority in Europe as well including Northern Europe.
The AGs have ANE ancestry - they're just more shifted towards West Eurasia. There's a cline from ANS - > ANE - > AG - > EHG in terms of East/West Eurasian ancestries. All of them have both though.
 
The AGs have ANE ancestry - they're just more shifted towards West Eurasia. There's a cline from ANS - > ANE - > AG - > EHG in terms of East/West Eurasian ancestries. All of them have both though.

The AG are ANE and they have less than 10% East Eurasian ancestry. ANE has nothing to do with "East" or "West Eurasia".
 
I have been to Southern Central Asia and the Pamir mountains when I served in the German Army. I just saw two kids with red hair and very pale skin and this properly linked to the Indo-Iranians(Andronovo), not one with blonde but I have to say blue eyes are wider spread. I remember a dude with very dark skin and blue eyes, really exotic but most people looked either like Central Asian Uzbeks or Middle Easteners. Also the modern distribution of R1b-Z2103 doesn't correlate with blondism: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30881-Modern-distribution-of-R1b-Z2103
Also we have Iran_Neo with a huge amount of ANE (about 35%).
Yeah, as expected. Anecdotally I'd say that blonds are much more common among Arab Palestinians and Syrians for example. I doubt it's the ANE. There are quite a few SNPs associated with light hair.
 
Markod -- I see reading is not your forte. Did you see the part where I also said they have West Eurasian ancestry?


Recap:

Afontova Gora are ANE.

Afontova Gora are genetically West Eurasia.

Afontova Gora had less than 10% East Eurasian ancestry.

ANE = a branch of West Eurasians.
 
Markod -- I see reading is not your forte. Did you see the part where I also said they have West Eurasian ancestry?


Recap:

Afontova Gora are ANE.

Afontova Gora are genetically West Eurasia.

Afontova Gora had less than 10% East Eurasian ancestry.

ANE = a branch of West Eurasians.

They're mixed. What's your source for the proportion of East Eurasian admixture? ANS had like 30%, Mal'ta 25% so that seems very low.
 
Yeah, as expected. Anecdotally I'd say that blonds are much more common among Arab Palestinians and Syrians for example. I doubt it's the ANE. There are quite a few SNPs associated with light hair.

Nobody said anything about linking modern percentages of ANE or R1b-L21 to blond hair. I said the Yenisei-to-Lake Baikal region was the birthplace of blond hair and that it historically was more common there than in Europe, and that it is still visible there today. Even one R1b-L21 sample from Yamnaya was blond so we cannot even say that Yamnaya had no blonds. Which is expected, since Samara was blond as well as a Ukranian Mesolithic guy.
 
If there are then I haven't seen those. I'm aware of these.View attachment 10719

I can't see the Attachment but I remember reading a German Newspaper article from 2018 where this was written :

For the german speakers:
Die Forscher zeichnen jetzt die Etappen der jahrhundertelangen Wanderung nach. Sie begann vor rund 4800 Jahren etwa auf dem Gebiet des heutigen Weißrussland. Dort hatten sich eindringende Jamnaja mit der örtlichen Bauernbevölkerung vermischt. Gleichsam als Mitbringsel hatten sie fortan deren Gene im Gepäck.
Die nächste nachweisbare Station liegt mehr als 2000 Kilometer weiter östlich. Dort, so jedenfalls rekonstruieren es die Linguisten, schnappten die Reisenden neue Begriffe auf, die dafür sprechen, dass sie die Kunst des Streitwagenbaus erlernten. Das stimmt mit den Erkennt- nissen der Archäologen überein: Sie ver- orten die Geburtsstätte dieses wirk- mächtigen Kriegsgeräts am Fuße des Uralgebirges.
Bis hierher waren die Migranten im Ochsenkarren durch die Steppe gezuckelt, fortan preschten sie auch in grazilen zwei- rädrigen Karossen durchs Grasland. Das lässt auf soziale Veränderungen schließen. Archäologe Kristiansen jedenfalls hält es für sehr wahrscheinlich, dass der Vormarsch in
Richtung Indien nicht wie in Europa in Gestalt marodierender Jugend- banden, sondern militärisch organisiert geschah.

Own translation of the first lines:
About 4800 years ago incoming Yamnaya people mated with local farming people in about the area of modern Belarus, from now on they had the genes of those people in them and took it to other places.

Link :
http://www.spiegel.de/plus/genetike...opaeer-a-00000000-0002-0001-0000-000157297043
 
^ I don't think it's a typo; it's not far from Lake Baikal (especially not in terms of hunter gatherer mobility) and it's the only major geographical feature to link AG to.


urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180531055100641-0855:S0033822218000309:S0033822218000309_fig1g.jpeg


"Lake Baikal region" doesn't mean "shores of Lake Baikal."

This map doesn't render the real distance between Krasnoyarsk and Irkutsk, but i tell you it's a long trail. Also it would be more accurate to have said on the Angara-Ienissei region more than the Baikal region. Every river doesn't flood into the Baikal Lake. I guess he wanted to say something like the " archeological horizon of the Baikal ".
 
I think the world is being invaded by all sorts of false problems.
We need to understand what is false.
 
If there are then I haven't seen those. I'm aware of these.View attachment 10719


I cannot see the Attachement you have posted. But it was written in a german newspaper(Spiegel Online) from May 2018:

For the German speakers:

Die Forscher zeichnen jetzt die Etappen der jahrhundertelangen Wanderung nach. Sie begann vor rund 4800 Jahren etwa auf dem Gebiet des heutigen Weißrussland. Dort hatten sich eindringende Jamnaja mit der örtlichen Bauernbevölkerung ver- mischt. Gleichsam als Mitbringsel hatten sie fortan deren Gene im Gepäck.

Die nächste nachweisbare Station liegt mehr als 2000 Kilometer weiter östlich. Dort, so jedenfalls rekonstruieren es die Linguisten, schnappten die Reisenden neue Begriffe auf, die dafür sprechen, dass sie die Kunst des Streitwagenbaus erlernten. Das stimmt mit den Erkennt- nissen der Archäologen überein: Sie ver- orten die Geburtsstätte dieses wirk- mächtigen Kriegsgeräts am Fuße des Uralgebirges.
Bis hierher waren die Migranten im Ochsenkarren durch die Steppe gezuckelt, fortan preschten sie auch in grazilen zwei- rädrigen Karossen durchs Grasland. Das lässt auf soziale Veränderungen schließen. Archäologe Kristiansen jedenfalls hält es für sehr wahrscheinlich, dass der Vor- marsch in Richtung Indien nicht wie in Europa in Gestalt marodierender Jugend- banden, sondern militärisch organisiert geschah.


Own Translation of the first Lines:
About 4800 years ago incoming Yamnaya people mated with the local farming population of about the area of modern day Belarus, from now on they carried the genes of these people with them to other places.


[h=2][/h]The Article is from Spielgel Online May 11 2018 and called "Genetiker erforschen die Bronzezeit: Woher stammt der Ureuropäer"
 
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Nobody said anything about linking modern percentages of ANE or R1b-L21 to blond hair. I said the Yenisei-to-Lake Baikal region was the birthplace of blond hair and that it historically was more common there than in Europe, and that it is still visible there today. Even one R1b-L21 sample from Yamnaya was blond so we cannot even say that Yamnaya had no blonds. Which is expected, since Samara was blond as well as a Ukranian Mesolithic guy.

That's too early for assuming this. Not until we have lots of Neanderthals and Denisova genotype.
 
Nobody said anything about linking modern percentages of ANE or R1b-L21 to blond hair. I said the Yenisei-to-Lake Baikal region was the birthplace of blond hair and that it historically was more common there than in Europe, and that it is still visible there today. Even one R1b-L21 sample from Yamnaya was blond so we cannot even say that Yamnaya had no blonds. Which is expected, since Samara was blond as well as a Ukranian Mesolithic guy.

The point I was trying to make (I made it badly) is that I'm 80% sure that in the HIrisPlex classification rs12821256 isn't required for a blond phenotype. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in.
 

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