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Thread: New Study on Bourbon DNA by Gerard Lucotte

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    I am sorry if I have offended you. I know that although it is considered to be a lingua franca, English can be very difficult sometimes. Incidentally, isn't Spanish spoken by more people natively?

    Making DNA tests obligatory sounds very nice at first, but then you realise that it removes the trust between husband and wife. I think that it should be done only when absolutely necessary.

    Are you implying that you are of royal descent? How very interesting! In any case, it is absolutely not your fault. By the way, a better synonym of illegitimate is natural.

    As for Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma: from what I have read about him, I don't like him very much. I feel he is trying to prove something to the Spanish Royal Family...

    Again, don't worry about your English! 😀

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Dear sir, I thank you for your kind words about my English language and I am not offended in any way.

    The legal system in European countries often does not follow the course of History in this matter: although being a natural son is an ameliorated status currently, that tends to be equal to that of a "legitimate" one, the law - at this stage - don't give any kind of protection and defence of a natural son's descendants.

    Having said that: what would a court sentence look like if its decision said exactly the opposite of what scientific expertise proved?

    So I stongly believe in the current evolution results and that before too long, science will "dispense justice" to those like me the family of whom was aparted from a "legitimate" ancestry.

    About prince Sixte-Henri de Bourbon Parme: please permit me to suggest that you form your opinion meeting him personally (if not done...) and to respectfully warm you against what is often said about him. I would also suggest that the possible reasons of many negative opinions about him might be questioned.

    His relationship with the Spanish Royal Family is not easy for sure. That said, neither King Felipe VI nor his father emeritus King Juan Carlos have any dynastical claim to the (symbolic) Royal Crown of France. The "Salic" law is mostly a french one (that could be questioned too in modern times...) and so being or not a true Bourbon/Borbon is - possibly more than ever before - the only challenge from now on, I refer first of all to France royal affairs.

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    Yes, you may be right about Prince Sixte-Henri. I have seen pictures of him on a different forum and he seems a very pleasant man. But enough about that.

    For most of humanity's history, the father was the person married to the mother - the Romans and Napoleon said the same thing: The father is the man, to whom marriage points... or something 😀 .
    In that case, Louis Bonaparte was the father of Napoleon III - from a legal point of view. His biological father, however, may have been a different man.
    Nowadays, we have DNA tests and when there is doubt, they should be done, but before the child has grown attached to anyone. After that, I think it's rather pointless.

    As for the French succession - oh dear. Good thing this isn't the place to discuss it. 😁😁😁

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    Dear Venko2257, I evoked the french succession just because you previously said on 16 Feb: "Is Duke Francisco the biological father of King Alfonso XII?
    Who knows?", and obviously, if the answer is NO, so the challenge is who was the true (biologic) father and which was his YDNA. These questions directly point the french succession because of most obvious dynastic reasons, I refer to the "loi Salique" genetic effects.

    That said, you are right in saying this forum is not thatone to discuss the dynastic/historic/legal question of the rights to the french royalty.

    I trust for personal reasons that before too long, Y-DNA and paternal haplogroup of Alfonso XII will be the subject of a scientific publication refering to current researchs.

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    I have read about a book which lists the lovers of Queen Isabella II and supposes who may have been the father of her children. In the case of King Alfonso XII, it was probably Enrique Puigmolto. It is widely assumed that Duke Francisco was gay, which is apparently why he wasn't the father. Interestingly enough, if the Queen had married the son of her other uncle, maybe we would not be having this discussion after all!

    As for the French succession, DNA is only part of the problem.

    If Leandro Junior gets tested, we may know the truth.

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    I also belong to the nobility, but I have no title I lost the papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I also belong to the nobility, but I have no title I lost the papers.
    That's still better than any Bulgarian I know (Thank you, Ottoman Empire!).

    Incidentally, DNA tests are not particularly popular in my country. On the one hand, it's due to the high costs. On the other hand, it's because such things are considered to lead to unwelcome revelations about one's paternity.

    These are a couple of the reasons why I still haven't tested myself for Y-DNA and mtDNA. Maybe one day...

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    ^^
    You have to get rid of unfounded complexes or prejudices, they are useless, it is not easy because everyone has them but you can reject them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^
    You have to get rid of unfounded complexes or prejudices, they are useless, it is not easy because everyone has them but you can reject them.
    Tell that to my fellow Bulgarians! ;)

    Anyway, I don't have any doubts about my paternity, so it's just a question of money...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venko2257 View Post
    Tell that to my fellow Bulgarians! ;)

    Anyway, I don't have any doubts about my paternity, so it's just a question of money...
    12 STR markers and FamilyFinder tests are just 59$ if you buy it from here and automatically join the Bulgarian DNA project. I think even a poor Bulgarian student can afford that. Further discounts are expected in April.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/group-...roup=Bulgarian

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    Yes, I was expecting such a reply sooner or later. Perhaps I did not phrase myself as well as I should have.

    I would test myself, but not at the moment, as there are more important things going on at the moment. I do not consider myself to be poor (but still a student!) and yet I try to spend my money wisely.

    Of course, I would prefer it if there was a national campaign to get your DNA tested here in Bulgaria. Trust me, I don't like my people's aversion to this.

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    Many Bulgarians are being tested at the moment, but most choose useless tests like with Ancestry and MyHeritage. As we lack the paper trail, there is no chance of finding real distant relatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    As we lack the paper trail, there is no chance of finding real distant relatives.
    Which is why I find it darkly humorous when Family Tree DNA advertise their Y DNA kit by saying that a Y chromosome is like a surname, you get it from your father. Except that's not quite the case where I live.

    Seeing as this thread has been derailed enough, let me elaborate a little. My surname is the same as my father's, but his is different from that of his own father. My grandfather also has a different surname from his own father, etc. It may be a regional thing, considering that there are old Bulgarian families who have kept their names through the decades (centuries?).

    For me, the paper trails ends in the mid-19th century. What about you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venko2257 View Post
    Which is why I find it darkly humorous when Family Tree DNA advertise their Y DNA kit by saying that a Y chromosome is like a surname, you get it from your father. Except that's not quite the case where I live.

    Seeing as this thread has been derailed enough, let me elaborate a little. My surname is the same as my father's, but his is different from that of his own father. My grandfather also has a different surname from his own father, etc. It may be a regional thing, considering that there are old Bulgarian families who have kept their names through the decades (centuries?).

    For me, the paper trails ends in the mid-19th century. What about you?
    The Y chromosome is like a surname with maximal utility for genealogical purposes. Whether you have the same surname or not, if you have the same Y-DNA result as someone else, you have discovered a paternal cousin. Of course, if you only do Y-12, it is impossible to determine whether this relationship is 50, 500 or thousands of years old. But if you take a high resolution test, you can confidently determine the relationship to within 3 generations.

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    What about the mtDNA, though? There were some recent findings that it may not always be inherited through the mother. That's a cause for concern (if true).

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    You are right in this. But my understanding is that what make sure whichone "male" lineage is must be one's Y-DNA only. That's the challenge of Pr Lucotte findings about the Bourbon royal dynasty

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venko2257 View Post
    Which is why I find it darkly humorous when Family Tree DNA advertise their Y DNA kit by saying that a Y chromosome is like a surname, you get it from your father. Except that's not quite the case where I live.

    Seeing as this thread has been derailed enough, let me elaborate a little. My surname is the same as my father's, but his is different from that of his own father. My grandfather also has a different surname from his own father, etc. It may be a regional thing, considering that there are old Bulgarian families who have kept their names through the decades (centuries?).

    For me, the paper trails ends in the mid-19th century. What about you?
    Although the Y hromosome, the male haplogroup respectively, is only a small part of the human genome it can prove a common relationship much deeper in time, than the autosomes. mtDna is not very helpful since even one difference could separate a few hundred, if not thousands years apart. Autosomal relatives after third cousins are usually speculative, even more in populations that have experienced a severe bottleneck or practised endogamy. If you don't have the paper trail you can not prove if this is a real relative or not. However with the Y STR and SNP match the connection is undeniable.
    Regarding the nation as a whole, only the deep testing of the male lines like the Big Y tests could prove origin and migrations in historical times. Or if you are really descending from a certain royal.

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    In order to shift things back to the topic at hand, I have all known studies relating to the subject with a brief explanation about what was found:

    1) Genetic genealogy reveals true Y haplogroup of House of Bourbon contradicting recent identification of the presumed remains of two French Kings - https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2013211 - Prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma, Prince Axel of Bourbon-Parma and Prince Joao Henrique of Orleans-Braganza are all established to be Y-DNA haplogroup R-Z381*. It differs, however, from those of the presumed head of King Henri IV and also of the supposed blood of King Louis XVI.

    2) Comparison Between the Y-Chromosome STR Profiles of Hughes de Bourbon and Other Members of the House of Bourbon - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=2573698 - Hughes de Bourbon, a patrilineal descendant of Karl Wilhelm Naundorff, who was supposedly "King Louis XVII", belongs to R1b1a2a1a1, thus G. Lucotte is willing to consider him as an agnate of the House of Bourbon.

    3) The DNA Y-STRs Profile of Louis XVI (1754-1793) - https://www.ijsciences.com/pub/article/1005 - The Y-DNA profile of King Louis XVI is similar enough to that of the three currently living Bourbons above, but he does not seem to have been closely related to Karl Wilhelm Naundorff.

    4) The Y-SNP Z-381 Is a Patrilineal DNA Marker of the Royal Bourbon Family of France - https://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperI...?PaperID=90376 - Prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma has been found to be DF98, so he belongs to the so-called "Kings' Cluster", alongside the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

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    One of the bourbons was tested on 37 markers. Predictor showed 99% DF98-S18823 But I have never seen anyone talk about this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farkha View Post
    One of the bourbons was tested on 37 markers. Predictor showed 99% DF98-S18823 But I have never seen anyone talk about this
    You are the first one! :)

    Do you know anything more about this? Because I believe that the initial study in 2013 was done with 37 markers. The most recent one (that I know of) was for 67 markers.
    Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma was the test subject and he is DF98 (part of the Kings' Cluster).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes of course I know something else. This is an old test, for 38 markers At the Portuguese from the Bourbons. Joao Henrique of Orleans Braganza. You have a link in the post by the way, too. I just entered the data into the nevgen predictor and got the result

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    every year, even every month, the predictor is updated, improves the data. Therefore, it is necessary to recheck old materials on new predictors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farkha View Post
    Yes of course I know something else. This is an old test, for 38 markers At the Portuguese from the Bourbons. Joao Henrique of Orleans Braganza. You have a link in the post by the way, too. I just entered the data into the nevgen predictor and got the result
    Ah, so it was him. Thanks for the reply!

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