Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 226 to 250 of 257

Thread: News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

  1. #226
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    12-03-18
    Posts
    109
    Points
    1,505
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,505, Level: 10
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Has this really been demonstrated convincingly? I've been wondering myself. Caucasus admixture as Hattian signal seems to make sense.

    Related: https://colchianstudies.files.wordpr...asis_20071.pdf
    Scenario would be like; Hattians invade Anatolia, pick up the IE language (why?) fragment and distribute it to Anatolia (like Latin->Romance languages) Earlier the language would move to Steppe via Balkan farmers. Total speculation.

  2. #227
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think the recent Iberia paper may have actually exposed a glimmer of doubt for Yamnaya being IE

  3. #228
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Joey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Location
    Coventry, Rhode Island
    Posts
    244
    Points
    2,543
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,543, Level: 14
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 207
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-YP445
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c2b

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic
    Country: USA - Rhode Island



    Exactly. Yamnaya could have been a language related to Caucasian languages that was carried by R1b and that spread into Europe with its only living descendant being Basque. Since these cultures leave no written records, all theories about their language are just speculation.

  4. #229
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Exactly. Yamnaya could have been a language related to Caucasian languages that was carried by R1b and that spread into Europe with its only living descendant being Basque. Since these cultures leave no written records, all theories about their language are just speculation.
    That's what I'm leaning towards atm. No IE language can be shown to be traced back to Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware. So funnily enough, after the ridicule in this thread (and I also thought it ridiculous), I actually think PIE WAS a farmer language (just of one of the later waves into Europe, and that spread to Sredny Stog/proto-CW through Cucuteni-Trypillia). That, or PIE was aboriginal to the Western Pontic-Caspian Steppe (i.e. Sredny Stog) and spread early to Anatolia with Suvorovo

  5. #230
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    in fact Iberian BB are devoid of CHG admixture, so it is more easy, they didn't came from steppes or Central Europe. The apparent EHG can be attributed to forcing programs to assign ADN chunks to given pops, maybe this recently published paper were there were diverse HG survivals or admixtures is delivering ghost pops.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  6. #231
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    in fact Iberian BB are devoid of CHG admixture, so it is more easy, they didn't came from steppes or Central Europe. The apparent EHG can be attributed to forcing programs to assign ADN chunks to given pops, maybe this recently published paper were there were diverse HG survivals or admixtures is delivering ghost pops.
    They must have CHG, surely, otherwise it would be a dead giveaway

  7. #232
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    in fact Iberian BB are devoid of CHG admixture, so it is more easy, they didn't came from steppes or Central Europe. The apparent EHG can be attributed to forcing programs to assign ADN chunks to given pops, maybe this recently published paper were there were diverse HG survivals or admixtures is delivering ghost pops.
    After all this time you still haven't figured out that Bell Beaker pottery is just that...a pottery style...and not an ethnicity, and that the original Iberians who used Beakers are DIFFERENT genetically from the Central European people who adopted beakers and other hallmarks of that culture?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  8. #233
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    They must have CHG, surely, otherwise it would be a dead giveaway
    maybe you can find it, I'm not capable...

  9. #234
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    After all this time you still haven't figured out that Bell Beaker pottery is just that...a pottery style...and not an ethnicity, and that the original Iberians who used Beakers are DIFFERENT genetically from the Central European people who adopted beakers and other hallmarks of that culture?
    I figure that BB is pottery inside a cultural package linked to a big demographic change in Western Europe carried mainly by R1b, that it is to say ethnicity, they had the same religion even. Maybe you could read more about them.

  10. #235
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    After all this time you still haven't figured out that Bell Beaker pottery is just that...a pottery style...and not an ethnicity, and that the original Iberians who used Beakers are DIFFERENT genetically from the Central European people who adopted beakers and other hallmarks of that culture?
    I definitely think a migration was involved with the spread of BB pottery to Iberia though, even if people of different ancestries used the pottery simultaneously. What that was I don't know (it could be North African-related, L51-related, G2a-related etc.), but I know it's very rare for brand new pottery styles to emerge with no clear immediate predecessor.

  11. #236
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-09-16
    Posts
    174
    Points
    4,236
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,236, Level: 18
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    maybe you can find it, I'm not capable...
    Let's try scaled Global25 on Iberia Bell Beaker (with steppe); it's surely not gospel, but it's something.

    HG sources going eastward from Iberia:
    68% Iberia CA, 19% El Miron, 13% Iberia N, 0% Iberia Mesolithic - distance 7.67479%
    44% LBK N, 18% Iron Gates HG, 17% Vestonice 16, 21% Iberia CA - distance 5.6527%
    55% Iberia CA, 24% EHG, 21% LBK N - distance 2.5947%

    Adding CHG sources:
    61% Iberia CA, 22% EHG, 17% Peleponnese N Outlier - distance 2.1621%
    68% Iberia CA, 19% EHG, 7% CHG, 6% LBK N - distance 1.8130%

    With Yamnaya:
    72% Iberia CA, 28% Yamnaya Samara - distance 1.1723%
    70% Iberia CA, 24% Yamnaya Samara, 4% EHG, 2% LBK N - distance 1.0501%

    Has a somewhat higher ratio of EHG:CHG than Yamnaya does (unless this is some artifact of G25).

  12. #237
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I figure that BB is pottery inside a cultural package linked to a big demographic change in Western Europe carried mainly by R1b, that it is to say ethnicity, they had the same religion even. Maybe you could read more about them.


    No matter how many people over the years have tried to explain it, no matter what tools they use, you don't grasp that people from a Bell Beaker "setting" are going to differ genetically based on time period and where they adopted the "Beaker" package.

    Maciamo wrote about it years ago. Culture and genetics are NOT synonymous with this group. Period.

  13. #238
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,702
    Points
    25,472
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,472, Level: 48
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I think the recent Iberia paper may have actually exposed a glimmer of doubt for Yamnaya being IE
    Why do you say that?

    As for all IE languages being derived from a CWC language, do we already know if the steppe ancestry in the Balkans and especially in Greece and Armenia fits better with a (probably) Late Yamnaya/Early Catacomb or with a CWC origin? If the former, that would immediately falsify the idea that CWC can explain the entire expansion of IE languages. Besides, Yamnaya and Sredny Stog were autosomally and culturally much, much closer to each other than Yamnaya to any Caucasian CA or BA culture or to Cucuteni-Tripolye, which suggests to me that it is more likely that SS and Yamnaya shared the same language family than Yamnaya speaking a completely different language, let alone one of contemporaneous Caucasian stock (PIE was certainly a continuum of several dialects and maybe even had sister languages that eventually died out during the expansion of some more successful languages within that linguistic area).

    Additionally, the Iberia paper as well as others confirmed that Central European BB was probably a big part of the history of Indo-Europeanization of Europe, but BB as far as I can see cannot be responsible for what happened in the Balkans (their easternmost reach was Hungary and they didn't have much influence beyond that), which also involved full Indo-Europeanization. Besides, it's not even certain that those Central European Bell Beakers were of CWC stock, and not coming from an intermediate homeland ultimately derived from Yamnaya. I find it tremendously unlikely that they just shifted to the language of theCWC women (not that they married only or mostly CWC women, they had far too much EEF ancestry for that), not just women, but women of a declining and generally less advanced culture than their own (language shift when the conquerors are a minority conquering a fully formed civilization is not a given, i.e. the Turkish in Anatolia or Arabs in Egypt, let alone when the conquerors are not absorbing a high culture and very complex society to rule them).

    If you want to know my present leanings (of course they may change as I read more and more studies are released): ~5000 BC: Khvalynsk (pre-PIE) and Sredny Stog (para-PIE) > ~4200 B.C.: Suvorovo-Novodanilovka (early PIE) > 4000 B.C.: Sredny Stog and Late Khvalynsk (homogeneization of the languages of the steppe, followed by a new dialect continuum), with Suvorovo "islands" in the Balkans leading to the Indo-Europeanization of some communities (possibly in Cernavoda and/or Ezero) > 3500 B.C.: Repin/Early Yamnaya (second wave of linguistic homogeneization of the steppe, with LPIE dialects expanding and either absorbing or forcing a "reconvergence" of linguistic aspects towards a new lingua franca)... Or something like that. lol

  14. #239
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,702
    Points
    25,472
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,472, Level: 48
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I definitely think a migration was involved with the spread of BB pottery to Iberia though, even if people of different ancestries used the pottery simultaneously. What that was I don't know (it could be North African-related, L51-related, G2a-related etc.), but I know it's very rare for brand new pottery styles to emerge with no clear immediate predecessor.
    Spread TO Iberia? Aren't the earliest BB remains from Iberia, more specifically Portugal? I've always thought of BB as a local, Iberian development (obviously foreign influences must have happened, too) that simply spread northward as a very prestigious cultural package through trade routes and maybe trade outposts and colonies to the North Sea region, where many people - not all, as we can see from the recent results of the arrival of steppe BB-like ancestry in the Balearic islands in the BA - picked it up much like Japanese people picked a lot of Western MATERIAL culture even if they maintained their cultural distinctiveness, ethnic identity and ancestry.

  15. #240
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Why do you say that?

    As for all IE languages being derived from a CWC language, do we already know if the steppe ancestry in the Balkans and especially in Greece and Armenia fits better with a (probably) Late Yamnaya/Early Catacomb or with a CWC origin? If the former, that would immediately falsify the idea that CWC can explain the entire expansion of IE languages. Besides, Yamnaya and Sredny Stog were autosomally and culturally much, much closer to each other than Yamnaya to any Caucasian CA or BA culture or to Cucuteni-Tripolye, which suggests to me that it is more likely that SS and Yamnaya shared the same language family than Yamnaya speaking a completely different language, let alone one of contemporaneous Caucasian stock (PIE was certainly a continuum of several dialects and maybe even had sister languages that eventually died out during the expansion of some more successful languages within that linguistic area).

    Additionally, the Iberia paper as well as others confirmed that Central European BB was probably a big part of the history of Indo-Europeanization of Europe, but BB as far as I can see cannot be responsible for what happened in the Balkans (their easternmost reach was Hungary and they didn't have much influence beyond that), which also involved full Indo-Europeanization. Besides, it's not even certain that those Central European Bell Beakers were of CWC stock, and not coming from an intermediate homeland ultimately derived from Yamnaya. I find it tremendously unlikely that they just shifted to the language of theCWC women (not that they married only or mostly CWC women, they had far too much EEF ancestry for that), not just women, but women of a declining and generally less advanced culture than their own (language shift when the conquerors are a minority conquering a fully formed civilization is not a given, i.e. the Turkish in Anatolia or Arabs in Egypt, let alone when the conquerors are not absorbing a high culture and very complex society to rule them).

    If you want to know my present leanings (of course they may change as I read more and more studies are released): ~5000 BC: Khvalynsk (pre-PIE) and Sredny Stog (para-PIE) > ~4200 B.C.: Suvorovo-Novodanilovka (early PIE) > 4000 B.C.: Sredny Stog and Late Khvalynsk (homogeneization of the languages of the steppe, followed by a new dialect continuum), with Suvorovo "islands" in the Balkans leading to the Indo-Europeanization of some communities (possibly in Cernavoda and/or Ezero) > 3500 B.C.: Repin/Early Yamnaya (second wave of linguistic homogeneization of the steppe, with LPIE dialects expanding and either absorbing or forcing a "reconvergence" of linguistic aspects towards a new lingua franca)... Or something like that. lol
    It's ultimately my gut instinct, clearly as that has changed a couple of times it isn't anything to rely on too heavily though. The main things I can think of atm are the fact that proto-Anatolian doesn't have the word for wheel (and PIE seems to have been spoken by a community familiar with farming), that Tocharian is likely not related to Afanasevo imo given the distance from the Tarim basin and the fact that likely Tocharian speakers from the Tarim Basin were CW-derived R1as, that in many ways it seems the CWC was not descended from Yamnaya, and that Yamnaya actually matches rather well with Dene-Caucasian of all things...

    Yamnayan offshoots have presences in areas where Vasconic (BB culture - NOTE I STILL DON'T THINK IT WAS YAMNAYA DERIVED, but potentially derived from Kemi-Oba or something pre-Yamnaya), Yenesian (Afanasievo culture) and North Caucasian (Yamnaya proper but also potentially Maykop if Dene-Caucasian spread originally from Maykop) are spoken, with influence where Sino-Tibetan is spoken (Afanasevo introduced bronze metallurgy to East Asia and extremely extensive contacts with China existed with Afanasievo's descendents for thousands of years, so perhaps language transfer or at least influence was involved). That's Sino-Caucasian languages accounted for in terms of Yamnaya, Na Dene is harder to explain however they have modern swastikas and other similarities with areas of the Old World that only really date back at most to the 5th mBC (not getting into a debate about that though, but it's one of the things that I'll never change my mind on and not out of narrow-mindedness).

    I definitely do think Catacomb was IE as it just makes a lot of sense for Greek and Armenian, so idk. Maybe Catacomb was influenced by CW, or perhaps everything I've mentioned so far are actually Repin and not Yamnaya offshoots as they all lack kurgans (afaik none in Afanasievo, BBs etc.) and thus Yamnaya was IE-ised by Maykop but Repin predating Maykop influence wasn't?

  16. #241
    Dr. Eugenics Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Ethnic group
    Of the world
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Spread TO Iberia? Aren't the earliest BB remains from Iberia, more specifically Portugal? I've always thought of BB as a local, Iberian development (obviously foreign influences must have happened, too) that simply spread northward as a very prestigious cultural package through trade routes and maybe trade outposts and colonies to the North Sea region, where many people - not all, as we can see from the recent results of the arrival of steppe BB-like ancestry in the Balearic islands in the BA - picked it up much like Japanese people picked a lot of Western MATERIAL culture even if they maintained their cultural distinctiveness, ethnic identity and ancestry.
    Yeah I meant from its proto-Beaker form which has no parallels in Iberia, should have clarified. Cultural packages don't really spring out of nowhere without previous prototypes or influence from outside.

    One curious tidbit which is confusing me - the Beaker physical type is associated with L51 Central Europeans, but the few North African-influenced individuals we've found in Iberia were gigantic and brachycephalic too. So I don't really know whether that's coincidence or not (I hate coincidences but it may be the case here)

  17. #242
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Steppe is by definition modeled as EHG + CHG... So if you would found Steppe + CHG in EBA Iberia, this would be unrelated to Steppe and just extra CHG from a maritime road or something. That is how logic would you to interprete it. So not founding extra CHG makes actually pretty much sense for a northern road having ultimate origin in a Steppe population. Why would Steppe in Steppe being EHG + CHG and Steppe in Iberia just being EHG... Or am i completely missing the point and Iberia EBA only have EHG and they interprete it as Steppe? It cannot be that, this would be a huge shortcut.

  18. #243
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It's ultimately my gut instinct, clearly as that has changed a couple of times it isn't anything to rely on too heavily though. The main things I can think of atm are the fact that proto-Anatolian doesn't have the word for wheel (and PIE seems to have been spoken by a community familiar with farming), that Tocharian is likely not related to Afanasevo imo given the distance from the Tarim basin and the fact that likely Tocharian speakers from the Tarim Basin were CW-derived R1as, that in many ways it seems the CWC was not descended from Yamnaya, and that Yamnaya actually matches rather well with Dene-Caucasian of all things...

    Yamnayan offshoots have presences in areas where Vasconic (BB culture - NOTE I STILL DON'T THINK IT WAS YAMNAYA DERIVED, but potentially derived from Kemi-Oba or something pre-Yamnaya), Yenesian (Afanasievo culture) and North Caucasian (Yamnaya proper but also potentially Maykop if Dene-Caucasian spread originally from Maykop) are spoken, with influence where Sino-Tibetan is spoken (Afanasevo introduced bronze metallurgy to East Asia and extremely extensive contacts with China existed with Afanasievo's descendents for thousands of years, so perhaps language transfer or at least influence was involved). That's Sino-Caucasian languages accounted for in terms of Yamnaya, Na Dene is harder to explain however they have modern swastikas and other similarities with areas of the Old World that only really date back at most to the 5th mBC (not getting into a debate about that though, but it's one of the things that I'll never change my mind on and not out of narrow-mindedness).

    I definitely do think Catacomb was IE as it just makes a lot of sense for Greek and Armenian, so idk. Maybe Catacomb was influenced by CW, or perhaps everything I've mentioned so far are actually Repin and not Yamnaya offshoots as they all lack kurgans (afaik none in Afanasievo, BBs etc.) and thus Yamnaya was IE-ised by Maykop but Repin predating Maykop influence wasn't?
    Post-Yamnaya Steppe populations shows that probably debuting in Catacomb / Poltavka and until Historical times, Z2103 was not anymore the only dominant lineage but Z93 coexisted with, as we saw that Scythians of western ukraine were mainly still Z2103. Both Armenians and Greeks mainly shows Z2103 and Z93 as R lineages, without the clades linked with post-Antiquity migrations. Catacomb and Poltavka could have been newly and conflicting populations in terms of R1a/R1b and Centum/Satem languages.

  19. #244
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Yeah I meant from its proto-Beaker form which has no parallels in Iberia, should have clarified. Cultural packages don't really spring out of nowhere without previous prototypes or influence from outside.

    One curious tidbit which is confusing me - the Beaker physical type is associated with L51 Central Europeans, but the few North African-influenced individuals we've found in Iberia were gigantic and brachycephalic too
    . So I don't really know whether that's coincidence or not (I hate coincidences but it may be the case here)
    Can you show the datas for this.

  20. #245
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,370
    Points
    5,836
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,836, Level: 22
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Why do you say that?

    As for all IE languages being derived from a CWC language, do we already know if the steppe ancestry in the Balkans and especially in Greece and Armenia fits better with a (probably) Late Yamnaya/Early Catacomb or with a CWC origin? If the former, that would immediately falsify the idea that CWC can explain the entire expansion of IE languages. Besides, Yamnaya and Sredny Stog were autosomally and culturally much, much closer to each other than Yamnaya to any Caucasian CA or BA culture or to Cucuteni-Tripolye, which suggests to me that it is more likely that SS and Yamnaya shared the same language family than Yamnaya speaking a completely different language, let alone one of contemporaneous Caucasian stock (PIE was certainly a continuum of several dialects and maybe even had sister languages that eventually died out during the expansion of some more successful languages within that linguistic area).

    Additionally, the Iberia paper as well as others confirmed that Central European BB was probably a big part of the history of Indo-Europeanization of Europe, but BB as far as I can see cannot be responsible for what happened in the Balkans (their easternmost reach was Hungary and they didn't have much influence beyond that), which also involved full Indo-Europeanization. Besides, it's not even certain that those Central European Bell Beakers were of CWC stock, and not coming from an intermediate homeland ultimately derived from Yamnaya. I find it tremendously unlikely that they just shifted to the language of theCWC women (not that they married only or mostly CWC women, they had far too much EEF ancestry for that), not just women, but women of a declining and generally less advanced culture than their own (language shift when the conquerors are a minority conquering a fully formed civilization is not a given, i.e. the Turkish in Anatolia or Arabs in Egypt, let alone when the conquerors are not absorbing a high culture and very complex society to rule them).

    If you want to know my present leanings (of course they may change as I read more and more studies are released): ~5000 BC: Khvalynsk (pre-PIE) and Sredny Stog (para-PIE) > ~4200 B.C.: Suvorovo-Novodanilovka (early PIE) > 4000 B.C.: Sredny Stog and Late Khvalynsk (homogeneization of the languages of the steppe, followed by a new dialect continuum), with Suvorovo "islands" in the Balkans leading to the Indo-Europeanization of some communities (possibly in Cernavoda and/or Ezero) > 3500 B.C.: Repin/Early Yamnaya (second wave of linguistic homogeneization of the steppe, with LPIE dialects expanding and either absorbing or forcing a "reconvergence" of linguistic aspects towards a new lingua franca)... Or something like that. lol
    I think what we might take in account when talking about IE languages per opposition to AA ones for exemple. All IE languages have direct links all each other. Vocabulary, Morphology, Phonology and all Sound changes, Shifts etc... have a logical pattern of evolution, it's a very coherent pattern and makes me think of Classical Latin and all the Romance dialects that are very coherent too, even tho the distance between them sometimes and that they all evolved from little regional dialects at the beginning. It just sounds like IE dialects evolved ultra fast, no resting. The time between the first expansion from the original Urheimat to their " Classical " distribution have probably lasted less than 2000 years ( Anatolian and Tocharian dialects included ). Even tho they are already in Antiquity very shifted, all IE languages could really be seen as just Dialects of a same language. Even the Gods are mostly the same, a part of Names, the functions are still there and there is parallels everywhere. Now try to do the same with Ancient Egyptian, Tamazight and Ancient Eastern Semitic languages, it absolutely not gonna work. PAA language is way way older than PIE and expanded way way slower than IE dialects.

  21. #246
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    105
    Points
    1,441
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,441, Level: 10
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 109
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: USA - Connecticut



    What is that we expect? I wonder when we look around us nothing seems real but over the hourglass clock what has stayed constant? Maybe the greatest wrong is when someone pontificates a deep knowledge and it turns out to have no CORE TRUTH. the challenge is establish a balance and continue to work through those highs and lows of what's happening at the moment.
    I want to believe in all that we share but at times the pieces are hard to except without focus but each pieces can easily come to contradict where we started from. Thank you for listening and sharing it just hard to believe that one answer can solve the problems even within the moment.

  22. #247
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Let's try scaled Global25 on Iberia Bell Beaker (with steppe); it's surely not gospel, but it's something.

    HG sources going eastward from Iberia:
    68% Iberia CA, 19% El Miron, 13% Iberia N, 0% Iberia Mesolithic - distance 7.67479%
    44% LBK N, 18% Iron Gates HG, 17% Vestonice 16, 21% Iberia CA - distance 5.6527%
    55% Iberia CA, 24% EHG, 21% LBK N - distance 2.5947%

    Adding CHG sources:
    61% Iberia CA, 22% EHG, 17% Peleponnese N Outlier - distance 2.1621%
    68% Iberia CA, 19% EHG, 7% CHG, 6% LBK N - distance 1.8130%

    With Yamnaya:
    72% Iberia CA, 28% Yamnaya Samara - distance 1.1723%
    70% Iberia CA, 24% Yamnaya Samara, 4% EHG, 2% LBK N - distance 1.0501%

    Has a somewhat higher ratio of EHG:CHG than Yamnaya does (unless this is some artifact of G25).
    Global25? what is it?

  23. #248
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,680
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,680, Level: 27
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 70
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No matter how many people over the years have tried to explain it, no matter what tools they use, you don't grasp that people from a Bell Beaker "setting" are going to differ genetically based on time period and where they adopted the "Beaker" package.

    Maciamo wrote about it years ago. Culture and genetics are NOT synonymous with this group. Period.
    we were speaking about Iberian BB? of course the genetic profile will differ between carriers, admixeds and adopters of the culture, it happens worldwide, as per example USA or Italy itself. What you are not understanding with me?

  24. #249
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,702
    Points
    25,472
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,472, Level: 48
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It's ultimately my gut instinct, clearly as that has changed a couple of times it isn't anything to rely on too heavily though. The main things I can think of atm are the fact that proto-Anatolian doesn't have the word for wheel (and PIE seems to have been spoken by a community familiar with farming), that Tocharian is likely not related to Afanasevo imo given the distance from the Tarim basin and the fact that likely Tocharian speakers from the Tarim Basin were CW-derived R1as, that in many ways it seems the CWC was not descended from Yamnaya, and that Yamnaya actually matches rather well with Dene-Caucasian of all things...

    Yamnayan offshoots have presences in areas where Vasconic (BB culture - NOTE I STILL DON'T THINK IT WAS YAMNAYA DERIVED, but potentially derived from Kemi-Oba or something pre-Yamnaya), Yenesian (Afanasievo culture) and North Caucasian (Yamnaya proper but also potentially Maykop if Dene-Caucasian spread originally from Maykop) are spoken, with influence where Sino-Tibetan is spoken (Afanasevo introduced bronze metallurgy to East Asia and extremely extensive contacts with China existed with Afanasievo's descendents for thousands of years, so perhaps language transfer or at least influence was involved). That's Sino-Caucasian languages accounted for in terms of Yamnaya, Na Dene is harder to explain however they have modern swastikas and other similarities with areas of the Old World that only really date back at most to the 5th mBC (not getting into a debate about that though, but it's one of the things that I'll never change my mind on and not out of narrow-mindedness).

    I definitely do think Catacomb was IE as it just makes a lot of sense for Greek and Armenian, so idk. Maybe Catacomb was influenced by CW, or perhaps everything I've mentioned so far are actually Repin and not Yamnaya offshoots as they all lack kurgans (afaik none in Afanasievo, BBs etc.) and thus Yamnaya was IE-ised by Maykop but Repin predating Maykop influence wasn't?
    I don't know what you're trying to get to, but you're comparing things that are chronologically very far apart from each other. Dené-Caucasian is a (very fringe, in fact) hypothesis that is assumed to relate to language expansions that happened dozens of thousands of years ago, still in the Paleolithic era. Some of the Caucasian language families, fully formed, and very distinct from each other, are estimated to have started to split more than 4000-5000 years ago. Dené-Yeniseian is dated to at the very least 4000 to 5000 years ago. Yamnaya is just way too late for all of those developments. Yamnaya would probably have very little to do with the present distribution of the language families you're talking about even if they were ultimately related, because that link would be thousands of years before Yamnaya (and that's a really big if, aside from Starostin and some other "bold" scientists not many linguists think we can go back that far in the reconstruction of proto-languages based on a few similar roots and particles, and Starostin's work has been shown to have many mistranslations and incorrect semantic correspondences to try to force a nonexistant fit between extremely distant language families). There is no way that language families as profoundly different as Vasconisc, Yeniseian and North Caucasian (which of them? It's still very arguable if Northwest and Northeast Caucasian are directly related, actually even the two main branches of Northeast Caucasian are so distant from each other that their divergence is assumed to be extremely old, at least 4000-5000 years). I think you're trying a bit too hard to fit Yamnaya into this whole (and very controversial) Dené-Caucasian thing. Chronologically and linguistically it just makes no sense.

    As for genetics, it's most likely that CWC does not derive from Yamnaya, it's actually contemporaneous with Yamnaya in the latter's mid and late phase, so chronologically it doesn't make much sense. But autosomally the steppe component in the CWC is very close to that of the Yamnaya, and their Y-DNA haplogroup was present in the Pontic-Caspian steppe that would become mostly Yamnaya roughly just before the predecessors to CWC expanded northward. So it makes sense that they were just a closely related population that probably had preserved more Sredny Stog patrilineal lineages and avoided Yamnayization by pushing northward and eventually spreading to North Europe. I find it very unlikely that they wouldn't have spoken LPIE at least when they migrated, because I am definitely not sure that all IE language branches can be derived from CWC, and I'm also unconvinced by the idea that the CWC, not being themselves a great and powerful civilization, managed to convince non-IE-speaking people to their West (BB) and to their South (Catacomb) and perhaps even some others still to speak LPIE dialects even as they were, in some cases, receding and declining (as in ~2500-2200 B.C. Central Europe).

  25. #250
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,702
    Points
    25,472
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,472, Level: 48
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Yeah I meant from its proto-Beaker form which has no parallels in Iberia, should have clarified. Cultural packages don't really spring out of nowhere without previous prototypes or influence from outside.

    One curious tidbit which is confusing me - the Beaker physical type is associated with L51 Central Europeans, but the few North African-influenced individuals we've found in Iberia were gigantic and brachycephalic too. So I don't really know whether that's coincidence or not (I hate coincidences but it may be the case here)
    Are you sure about that? I had read that there are some antecedente ceramic styles (Cordoz or something like that, I don't remember the name well now) in Portugal that might have served as the inspiration for the bell beakers. Some have also speculated that there might've been North African influences coupled with local trends. In any case, I think genetics has already established quite well that the earliest BB people of Iberia were not genetically the same population as the BB of Central Europe. That wouldn't be the first time that people spread a cultural mode that wasn't originally theirs (Arabs did just that in their so-called "Arab" architecture, many non-genetically Roman/Central Italian people did that spreading all things Roman to all corners of Europe, Turks did that spreading a lot of originally Iranic cultural stuff, and so on).

Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •