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Thread: News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think what we might take in account when talking about IE languages per opposition to AA ones for exemple. All IE languages have direct links all each other. Vocabulary, Morphology, Phonology and all Sound changes, Shifts etc... have a logical pattern of evolution, it's a very coherent pattern and makes me think of Classical Latin and all the Romance dialects that are very coherent too, even tho the distance between them sometimes and that they all evolved from little regional dialects at the beginning. It just sounds like IE dialects evolved ultra fast, no resting. The time between the first expansion from the original Urheimat to their " Classical " distribution have probably lasted less than 2000 years ( Anatolian and Tocharian dialects included ). Even tho they are already in Antiquity very shifted, all IE languages could really be seen as just Dialects of a same language. Even the Gods are mostly the same, a part of Names, the functions are still there and there is parallels everywhere. Now try to do the same with Ancient Egyptian, Tamazight and Ancient Eastern Semitic languages, it absolutely not gonna work. PAA language is way way older than PIE and expanded way way slower than IE dialects.
    Yes, there is no doubt Afro-Asiatic is much older and probably at least in part still represents the expansion of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (maybe some of the most intensive and efficient ones, like the early Natufians or even their immediate ancestors?). I must say, though, that in my opinion the divergence from the common, mostly unchanged PIE core started even before the PIE expansion per se. In my opinion the steppe migrations of the EBA already spread quite distinct dialects, which still formed an even dialect continuum, but at the extremes of it my hunch is that there was already significant linguistic differentiation. Then the linguistic divergence was strongly accelerated by the lack of any literary culture, any political centralization, any common identity (they probably didn't see themselves as "the Indo-Europeans" or any other unified nation), any close contacts between the extremes of that dialect continuum after its dramatic expansion, and by the close contact and admixture with completely different populations (and presumably a lot of the speaking community eventually came to be formed by secondary, non-native speakers).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I don't know what you're trying to get to, but you're comparing things that are chronologically very far apart from each other. Dené-Caucasian is a (very fringe, in fact) hypothesis that is assumed to relate to language expansions that happened dozens of thousands of years ago, still in the Paleolithic era. Some of the Caucasian language families, fully formed, and very distinct from each other, are estimated to have started to split more than 4000-5000 years ago. Dené-Yeniseian is dated to at the very least 4000 to 5000 years ago. Yamnaya is just way too late for all of those developments. Yamnaya would probably have very little to do with the present distribution of the language families you're talking about even if they were ultimately related, because that link would be thousands of years before Yamnaya (and that's a really big if, aside from Starostin and some other "bold" scientists not many linguists think we can go back that far in the reconstruction of proto-languages based on a few similar roots and particles, and Starostin's work has been shown to have many mistranslations and incorrect semantic correspondences to try to force a nonexistant fit between extremely distant language families). There is no way that language families as profoundly different as Vasconisc, Yeniseian and North Caucasian (which of them? It's still very arguable if Northwest and Northeast Caucasian are directly related, actually even the two main branches of Northeast Caucasian are so distant from each other that their divergence is assumed to be extremely old, at least 4000-5000 years). I think you're trying a bit too hard to fit Yamnaya into this whole (and very controversial) Dené-Caucasian thing. Chronologically and linguistically it just makes no sense.

    As for genetics, it's most likely that CWC does not derive from Yamnaya, it's actually contemporaneous with Yamnaya in the latter's mid and late phase, so chronologically it doesn't make much sense. But autosomally the steppe component in the CWC is very close to that of the Yamnaya, and their Y-DNA haplogroup was present in the Pontic-Caspian steppe that would become mostly Yamnaya roughly just before the predecessors to CWC expanded northward. So it makes sense that they were just a closely related population that probably had preserved more Sredny Stog patrilineal lineages and avoided Yamnayization by pushing northward and eventually spreading to North Europe. I find it very unlikely that they wouldn't have spoken LPIE at least when they migrated, because I am definitely not sure that all IE language branches can be derived from CWC, and I'm also unconvinced by the idea that the CWC, not being themselves a great and powerful civilization, managed to convince non-IE-speaking people to their West (BB) and to their South (Catacomb) and perhaps even some others still to speak LPIE dialects even as they were, in some cases, receding and declining (as in ~2500-2200 B.C. Central Europe).
    Thanks for the post...very good info.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the post...very good info.
    You're welcome, Angela. Glad you liked it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, there is no doubt Afro-Asiatic is much older and probably at least in part still represents the expansion of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (maybe some of the most intensive and efficient ones, like the early Natufians or even their immediate ancestors?). I must say, though, that in my opinion the divergence from the common, mostly unchanged PIE core started even before the PIE expansion per se. In my opinion the steppe migrations of the EBA already spread quite distinct dialects, which still formed an even dialect continuum, but at the extremes of it my hunch is that there was already significant linguistic differentiation. Then the linguistic divergence was strongly accelerated by the lack of any literary culture, any political centralization, any common identity (they probably didn't see themselves as "the Indo-Europeans" or any other unified nation), any close contacts between the extremes of that dialect continuum after its dramatic expansion, and by the close contact and admixture with completely different populations (and presumably a lot of the speaking community eventually came to be formed by secondary, non-native speakers).
    Yes, Pontic Steppe is a very huge territory of 1'000'000 km2, it's hard to imagine one big Lingua Franca without even slightly some differentiations between all the speakers of it. It's even possible that some dialects pre-Yamnaya were already Centum/Satem shifted, maybe Maykop or South Caucasus influenced the language to shift toward Satemization? I never really believed that Satemization was related with Uralic input, Satem languages sound like something coming from Middle-East. And obviously local populations give their own local words or we would have perfect dialects with thousand of km of separation. Obviously, if Celts from eastern alps would encounter Scythians tribes in a trade or Greeks on the Adriatic, none would consider the others their ethnic equals. Even tho they would exchange some cultural features and notice that they have the same god of thunder for exemple, their reasoning would be something like that " hey we have the same gods, it makes sens because they are the only gods i know and the only ones that exist " and not " yo we have the same gods! are we related? ".

    When we talk about IE languages and their expansion, it sound very easy, we have the proved Steppe expansion who matches Genetic, Lineage and Linguistic distribution. For Afro-Asiatic it's way more complexe. Iberomaurusian, Natufian, Chalcolithic South Caucasus? Sounds like the first two makes more sense. Then we have R1b-V88 and Chadic languages, wich complicated even more the link with any kind of Lineage with the AA languages, because certainly R1b-V88 comes from Paleolithic Europe and didn't bring any kind of AA language to Africa.

  5. #255
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    Autosomal analysis of modern Spanish populations might provide a clue.

    While autosomal differences in the Basque population are subtle, they seem to have a significant impact on optimal ancestral fit. My results suggest that Basques are the only Iberian population for which ATP3-like people appear to have contributed the largest share of their autosomal DNA (I estimate 41%), whilst other Iberians fit better with larger shares of Central European steppic populations and Iberian Neolithics (and only about 29% ATP-like).

    Perhaps Basques were more heavily descended from the earliest wave of R1b-M269 newcomers like those at El Portalon, and were sheltered to some degree from Central European newcomers arriving in later waves. This earliest wave looks to have been less steppic and so is more likely to have spoken an Anatolian language. I see 5th millennium BC Balkans as a melting pot of different ethnicities, probably multi-lingual. If the earliest wave of M269 newcomers migrated to Iberia before the main growth and expansions of steppic populations occurred, it would likely have spoken the language of the majority Anatolian population found in the Balkans at the time.

    This would suggest Basque to be perhaps an Anatolian/Balkan language, and PIE to be a steppic language common to both early majority R1b-L23 and early majority R1a-M417 populations.

    Could there be any mileage in this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Scenario would be like; Hattians invade Anatolia, pick up the IE language (why?) fragment and distribute it to Anatolia (like Latin->Romance languages) Earlier the language would move to Steppe via Balkan farmers. Total speculation.
    I guess it depends on whether Anatolians can be shown to have steppe ancestry. I think they probably won't have any.

    Between ANF and CHG I think the latter looks like a more obvious contender for Hattian and Kaskian, no? In that case I think Anatolian might have expanded before the Hattians came. Hattian appears to have some Luwian influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I guess it depends on whether Anatolians can be shown to have steppe ancestry. I think they probably won't have any.

    Between ANF and CHG I think the latter looks like a more obvious contender for Hattian and Kaskian, no? In that case I think Anatolian might have expanded before the Hattians came. Hattian appears to have some Luwian influence.
    Reading about Hattians, i found this on wiki:

    ''Scholars have long assumed that the predominant population of the region of Anatolia "in the third millennium [BC] was an indigenous pre-Indo-European group called the Hattians."[5] But it is thought possible that speakers of Indo-European languages were also in central Anatolia by then. The scholar Petra Goedegebuure has proposed that before the conquest of the Hittites, an Indo-European language, probably Luwian, had already been spoken alongside the Hattic language for a long time''

    Plus:

    ''According to later Hittite documents, Sargon the Great had fought with the Luwian king Nurdaggal of Burushanda'' (2300 BC - Central Anatolia)

    Also this paper comes to mind: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...meland-in.html

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