News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

[Angela]

this forum is in English and stop labelling others racists

I second that.

This refusal to accept the results of population genetics because they don't fit preconceived myths or agendas is idiotic, as is the idea that all the population geneticists in the world are engaged in some sort of massive conspiracy.

[Angela]

Gray himself (et al) has been saying that since 2003. This is a slightly adjusted version of his 2014 scheme. Lots of people disagreed with him then and lots of people still do.

Obviously, he must have seen an internet comment by Olympic Mons proposing that very thing in 2002.

Dienekes clearly got all his ideas from him too.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

After giving me infractions, one after the other, that even got me banned for weeks here, one as recent as yesterday for manifesting my surprise for the kind of incivility you got way with against a another commenter, the least, the least you can do is not to comment my posts.

I am truly refraining from writing to you what you deserve to read.

Why not just stop acting as if you're some kind of genius prophet for once then - when odds are (over 50%) you're incorrect anyway. Anthony also clearly states Nalchik was completely different to Shulaveri-Shomu, who he sees as proto-Kartvelian; and we know Nalchik or similar cultures (Orlovka etc.) are likely the major source of CHG in Yamnaya (Nalchik = Steppe Eneolithic).

Anybody claiming to have solved the PIE problem doesn't fully know what he's talking about. I've never claimed to have known the answers, and what's more I often change my mind (I don't believe in a Balkan M269 to West Asian L23 to Caucasian Z2103 procession of IE anymore, something I had believed for a while).

[Olympus Mons]

Why not just stop acting as if you're some kind of genius prophet for once then - when odds are (over 50%) you're incorrect anyway. Anthony also clearly states Nalchik was completely different to Shulaveri-Shomu, who he sees as proto-Kartvelian; and we know Nalchik or similar cultures (Orlovka etc.) are likely the major source of CHG in Yamnaya (Nalchik = Steppe Eneolithic).

Not a good time to play hero and come to the rescue.... Grow up.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Not a good time to play hero and come to the rescue.... Grow up.

I'm not a virtue signaller - has my behaviour on this site suggested that? Because if anything it's the opposite. What will you do if Shulaveri dies?

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Angela has minor harsh feelings against Northern types if I'm honest (which isn't so bad), but she obviously isn't a racial supremacist of any form and otw is open-minded. As for the undeserved infractions/censorship argument - I'm sure there's some truth to it given my experience, but I don't really care as it probably isn't the case based on how you speak that you were being controversial yet mostly logical.

You'd get kicked out of a court of law for speaking unintelligible drivel, by the way.

[Cpluskx]

Btw it would be really nice if Dienekes returned to blogging. I wonder what he's thinking about PIE origins now.

[Olympus Mons]

"t appears that the world of the 4th millennium BC was well-connected long before the major expansion of steppe pastoralist and related groups. In this wide-ranging network of contacts, people not only spread and exchanged know-how and technological innovations, but occasionally also exchanged genes, and not only in one directionc.."

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-02-caucas...tures.html#jCp"

Slide 8
Attachment 10728

[Pip]

As autosomal analysis suggests that:
1. All IE-speaking populations best fit predominantly with the East Balkan Chalcolithic,
2. East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were predominantly of Anatolian origin with minority Suvorovo EHG admixture, and
3. Suvorovo were present in the East Balkans/Carpathians, having admixed with EEF for at least several hundred years before moving out,
- it would not be surprising if the ancestors of IE populations had adopted a language principally derived from Anatolia.

Although of course, we are unlikely to find out for sure which languages these people spoke, or indeed whether they were multi-lingual.

[hrvclv]

As autosomal analysis suggests that:
1. All IE-speaking populations best fit predominantly with the East Balkan Chalcolithic,
2. East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were predominantly of Anatolian origin with minority Suvorovo EHG admixture, and
3. Suvorovo were present in the East Balkans/Carpathians, having admixed with EEF for at least several hundred years before moving out,
- it would not be surprising if the ancestors of IE populations had adopted a language principally derived from Anatolia.

Although of course, we are unlikely to find out for sure which languages these people spoke, or indeed whether they were multi-lingual.

Fair enough. But East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were, as you point out, the result of a long period of admixing.

If the populations further west end up looking genetically like them, it means the original influx of steppe genes into western Europe can't have come from those already heavily admixed East Balkan pops. Unetice is much closer to Yamna than, say, Mycenians. So the steppe people who moved into western Europe in Bell Beaker times must have bypassed not only what was left of Maykop, but also those areas where the previous steppe migrations had ended up (Suvorovo, Cernavoda, Ezero, etc) in former Cucuteni territory. In other words, the people who brought western-PIE languages into western Europe left from somewhere near the Volga and made it straight to Hungary, Czechia, Germany in an exceedingly short time. My guess is that they were L51.

As to whether they had initially taken their language from Maykop people - as the article linked in post 1 above suggests - without much demic contact to speak of, well, I find it dubious at best.

[Angela]

Is no one seeing a pattern here? There are people who have been posting drivel here for years. Fine. Post it. No one will bother you.

That's different from rants, insults, and accusations of racism because someone doesn't agree with your views, or indeed from constant attacks on researchers who don't support your own "theories".

I will not allow reasoned, fact based discourse from taking place here because people are afraid if they voice an opinion on certain topics certain groups of members will attack them.


IT IS GOING TO STOP.

[halfalp]

Can we just take a moment to keep in mind that we are speaking of prehistoric contexte and that apart if the 4th Reich would come from Iran or Turkey and claim the supremacy over the world, absolutely nothing of those studies and results would change something in our own life. That's interesting when a personnal intuition is confirmed by datas, but taking those historical contextes too seriously is pretty toxic and tryhard. Obsessions can never be that good for one own.

[halfalp]

I second that.

This refusal to accept the results of population genetics because they don't fit preconceived myths or agendas is idiotic, as is the idea that all the population geneticists in the world are engaged in some sort of massive conspiracy.

Conspiracy is a big word, and it's probably not that. But, reading some of the sentences of those scientists ( we except a certain knowledge on things that we dont have ourselves ) something, either they are clumsy, or i dont know.

Such as call Yamnaya, Western Asia.

Such as making a distinction between Pontic Steppe and " mainland Europe " ( didn't know russia was an island ).

Such as saying that the introduction of Steppe component was new to Europe.

It might just be a sensationalistic way of wrighting things, but anyway, certain terminologies and concepts that we see emerge by those scientists can make us question their real capabilities.

I think one of the most dangerous thing, is to believe scientists are more able, or knowledgeable than the common people.

[Anfänger]

Fair enough. But East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were, as you point out, the result of a long period of admixing.

If the populations further west end up looking genetically like them, it means the original influx of steppe genes into western Europe can't have come from those already heavily admixed East Balkan pops. Unetice is much closer to Yamna than, say, Mycenians. So the steppe people who moved into western Europe in Bell Beaker times must have bypassed not only what was left of Maykop, but also those areas where the previous steppe migrations had ended up (Suvorovo, Cernavoda, Ezero, etc) in former Cucuteni territory. In other words, the people who brought western-PIE languages into western Europe left from somewhere near the Volga and made it straight to Hungary, Czechia, Germany in an exceedingly short time. My guess is that they were L51.

As to whether they had initially taken their language from Maykop people - as the article linked in post 1 above suggests - without much demic contact to speak of, well, I find it dubious at best.

Mostly agree. So Eastern Yamnaya (Volga Region) were the real Steppe people that massively expanded and spread most of the PIE languages but the problem is, we don't have any R1b-L51 found there yet only R1b-Z2103 IIRC. Now there is also the problem of CWC being R1a instead of R1b, why the profound change in elites, maybe indoeuropeanisation of the R1a folk ?

About 31:00, he says "all other steppe cultures disappeared suddenly", so steppe Maykop and others around the East Yamnaya.


If the PIE-homeland is south of the Caucasus, it has to be before 5000BC, David Reich still thinks that there is possibly a source population for Anatolians and Steppe people, like he wrote in his book. He gave an interview some weeks ago where he still referred to the steppe as LPIE and interessingly in this video he described the Yamnaya as mix of Eastern HG and Iranian farmers ,why not CHG?

It kinda seems that some redhaired individuals were part of every major steppe expansion, maybe the commoners ? Macciamo also wrote that. (Compare for example Scots and Udmurt)

[Pip]

Fair enough. But East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were, as you point out, the result of a long period of admixing.
If the populations further west end up looking genetically like them, it means the original influx of steppe genes into western Europe can't have come from those already heavily admixed East Balkan pops.

Exactly the converse. If the populations further West look genetically like people from the East Balkan Chalcolithic, it surely means the original influx of Steppe genes into Western Europe most likely came from them. Why instead assume that these West European populations must have come from Yamnayan populations who lived further away and looked genetically less like them?

So the steppe people who moved into western Europe in Bell Beaker times must have bypassed not only what was left of Maykop, but also those areas where the previous steppe migrations had ended up (Suvorovo, Cernavoda, Ezero, etc) in former Cucuteni territory.

There's no reason why Yamnayans must have bypassed anybody. The data suggests they pushed Cernavoda people into Ezero, they or Cernavoda pushed Suvorovo people into Vucedol and Bell Beaker, they pushed Novodanilovka people into Corded Ware, and they subsequently fizzled out. That is why R1b-Z2103 is a very small minority in Europe today and why Europe has a very minor amount of CHG today. This myth that it was Yamnayans coming directly from the Volga who stormed all over Europe from Spain to Scandinavia eliminating everyone in their path is unfortunately repeated as a misleading mantra by many geneticists, and merely serves to fuel conspiracy theories about their motives, discrediting the entire discipline.

In other words, the people who brought western-PIE languages into western Europe left from somewhere near the Volga and made it straight to Hungary, Czechia, Germany in an exceedingly short time. My guess is that they were L51.

We have no data to show such people moved from the Volga, taking an odd route bypassing everyone else, and no data to indicate which languages they would have spoken had they done so. If they were L51, for which we also have no supporting data, I do not see why they would have headed for Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany in particular, when the data suggests a clear coalescence point for extant L51 in France, and that only a few very downstream sub-subclades of L51 spread from there to Hungary and Germany.

[Pip]

Autosomal data suggests the stable, core, majority elements of IE (Bell Beaker and Corded Ware derived) people descend from the incorporation of roving North Caucasus Steppe hunter gatherers into East Anatolian communities during the early 5th millennium BC - my guess is, probably as trading partners and/or mercenaries/bodyguards. In which case, it seems fairly likely these minority hunter gatherers would have broadly taken on the language of the majority Anatolian community with which they joined. But I do not see any way we can evidence this with any confidence, so I am not inclined to speculate one way of the other.

[hrvclv]

We have no data to show such people moved from the Volga, taking an odd route bypassing everyone else, and no data to indicate which languages they would have spoken had they done so. If they were L51, for which we also have no supporting data, I do not see why they would have headed for Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany in particular, when the data suggests a clear coalescence point for extant L51 in France, and that only a few very downstream sub-subclades of L51 spread from there to Hungary and Germany.

Bypassing may not have been the appropriate word. As I see things, they just drove through the extant populations, without stopping and admixing - just like the Germanic people did in Roman times. Populations seem to move clockwise at that time, with CW people moving east to form the Middle Dniepr culture, while Yamna Danube cross the Carpathians into CW territory and put and end to that culture. Maybe Yamna R1b were just chased away by incoming R1a from the northwest (?). Climatic events should not be discounted either.

I agree we have no clear evidence to date of where L51 emerged from. But L51 is distinctly associated with western PIE, which seems to have retained more ancient linguistic traits than other IE, notably satem, languages.

To get back to East Balkan populations. If, as some suppose, Ezero was where the Trojans came from, and possibly other Anatolian-speaking populations, then we do know that they were autosomally very similar to surrounding ANF, since no steppe has so far been discerned in the precious few Hittite samples. The Mycenians have been found to be very very close to Minoans autosomally, with only slight introgression of more northern genes. The Baden culture was basically farmers with a thin layer of steppe on top. Etc...

If Bell Beakers had come from such populations, and further admixed with the LBK people they encountered on the way, their steppe component would be so diluted as to be imperceptible. My guess is that Bell Beaker L51 arrived in central Europe relatively unadmixed.

At this point, I'd like to insist on the fact that "I have nothing to sell", and certainly not ideologically. I am just trying to understand. The population I belong to is not very high in steppe anyway, so I'd like to be spared the "shut up, Adolf" stuff.

[markod]

Do we have an SNP tested study of Z2103 frequencies? I suspect it's actually less common than the frequencies reported in the older STR surveys.

[hrvclv]

If they were L51, for which we also have no supporting data, I do not see why they would have headed for Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany in particular, when the data suggests a clear coalescence point for extant L51 in France, and that only a few very downstream sub-subclades of L51 spread from there to Hungary and Germany.

Why? Well, the simplest reason is: because they are there. Before 2500 BC, no R1b northwest of the Danube to speak of. Then, post 2500 BC, you find one L51 in Hungary, four L2 in Czechia, three L2 and one L51 in Bavaria. I do not know of any such samples in Northern France at that date. Within three centuries, the Yamna culture in the Pontic steppe disappears. Either they were chased away, or went west for ore, the most precious stuff in their day and age - like the Californian forty-niners.

Considering the south was more densely populated, and socially more highly structured (plus, full of Z2103), they went where resistance was the weakest.

I can't think why steppe people would have moved all the way to France, then turned back instantly towards Hungary.

[Pip]

Bypassing may not have been the appropriate word. As I see things, they just drove through the extant populations, without stopping and admixing - just like the Germanic people did in Roman times.

But the Steppe ancestors of Bell Beaker did not pass through the extant populations without admixing. Their best-fit admixture is wholly with Anatolian and East European EEF. There is little or no sign of exogamous admixture with West European populations (another myth).

Populations seem to move clockwise at that time, with CW people moving east to form the Middle Dniepr culture, while Yamna Danube cross the Carpathians into CW territory and put and end to that culture. Maybe Yamna R1b were just chased away by incoming R1a from the northwest (?).

CW people look to have moved West, rather than East (perhaps under pressure from Yamna), and had probably appropriated some of the middle Dnieper culture, rather than forming it or admixing with its people. And it appears to have been Bell Beaker that ended CW from the North West (U106) and the South West (U152), with CW's remnants fleeing East and ending Yamna at pretty much the same time.

To get back to East Balkan populations. If, as some suppose, Ezero was where the Trojans came from, and possibly other Anatolian-speaking populations, then we do know that they were autosomally very similar to surrounding ANF, since no steppe has so far been discerned in the precious few Hittite samples. The Mycenians have been found to be very very close to Minoans autosomally, with only slight introgression of more northern genes. The Baden culture was basically farmers with a thin layer of steppe on top. Etc...
If Bell Beakers had come from such populations, and further admixed with the LBK people they encountered on the way, their steppe component would be so diluted as to be imperceptible.

I don't know where the culture itself came from, but the L51 people who had principally adopted it by the time of the Bell Beaker expansion had been bottlenecked and were almost certainly derived from one small isolated East European population - not from a whole host of EEF populations and certainly not from a mass invasion of tribes from the Volga. There are signs of a little Ezero-like admixture in them, but none that I can see from Baden, Minoa, Myceanae or LBK.

[berun]

what a merry image, a culture spreading from Portugal meets somewhere in the middle a bunch of L51 coming from the Volga... and they liked so much that that they were fully beakerized and expanded such culture in all West Europe. It's kinda of influence of Saint Valentine's day, isn't?

[Pip]

Why? Well, the simplest reason is: because they are there. Before 2500 BC, no R1b northwest of the Danube to speak of.

We don't know where early R1b-L51 was, except perhaps North Central Spain (ATP3).

Then, post 2500 BC, you find one L51 in Hungary, four L2 in Czechia, three L2 and one L51 in Bavaria. I do not know of any such samples in Northern France at that date.

Which subclades of L51 were the Hungarian and Bavarian samples - has this been identified? The other 7 samples (L2) are all from the same sub-subclade 19 SNPs downstream from L51, and are certainly not indicative of a general L51 migration through these places, especially when all of the other many subclades of L51 are principally or exclusively located to the West of them.

Within three centuries, the Yamna culture in the Pontic steppe disappears. Either they were chased away, or went west for ore, the most precious stuff in their day and age - like the Californian forty-niners.

We can see where most of the extant Z2103 Yamna went, not West, but South of the Caucasus into Armenia.

I can't think why steppe people would have moved all the way to France, then turned back instantly towards Hungary.

They didn't. They weren't Steppe people. Their ancestors had moved out of the Steppe 2,000 years beforehand. And the data is suggestive of them arriving in Western Europe some considerable time before one small subset of them moved back up the Rhine to take on the threat from advancing Corded Ware.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Mostly agree. So Eastern Yamnaya (Volga Region) were the real Steppe people that massively expanded and spread most of the PIE languages but the problem is, we don't have any R1b-L51 found there yet only R1b-Z2103 IIRC. Now there is also the problem of CWC being R1a instead of R1b, why the profound change in elites, maybe indoeuropeanisation of the R1a folk ?

About 31:00, he says "all other steppe cultures disappeared suddenly", so steppe Maykop and others around the East Yamnaya.


If the PIE-homeland is south of the Caucasus, it has to be before 5000BC, David Reich still things that there is possibly a source population for Anatolians and Steppe people, like he wrote in his book. He gave an interview some weeks ago where he still referred to the steppe as LPIE and interessingly in this video he described the Yamnaya as mix of Eastern HG and Iranian farmers ,why not CHG?

It kinda seems that some redhaired individuals were part of every major steppe expansion, maybe the commoners ? Macciamo also wrote that. (Compare for example Scots and Udmurt)

I'm like 80% sure that's correct (the Eastern Yamnaya bit)

[Pip]

But I don't think we know for sure which languages the various groups of these people spoke, let alone which language or languages they all derived from thousands of years previously.

[markod]

But I don't think we know for sure which languages the various groups of these people spoke, let alone which language or languages they all derived from thousands of years previously.

I think this is important to remember. We now know that in Oceania language transfer/continuity occurred completely without admixture. Something similar could have happened in Europe at any time and we really have no way of finding out because there are no island refugia or the like where populations who retained their ancestral languages survive in their pure form.