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Thread: News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

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    News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

    From here: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...ropean-farmers

    Migrations of some Maykop into Yamnaya territory, accompanied by the transfer of knowledge and language, still happened, Wang’s team suspects. Occasional migrations north through the Caucasus to Yamnaya grasslands fits a scenario in which the ancient homeland of Indo-European language lay among Anatolian farmers, the researchers speculate. If they’re right, they have resolved one of the thorniest issues in the study of languages. But the long-debated origins of Indo-European tongues remain uncertain.
    Anybody else as confused as I am? I thought there were only two remaining camps - the Southern origin associated with the source of Steppe CHG and the indigenous Northern Steppe origin. But now, it looks like Max Planck is seriously proposing an origin with farmers.






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    It's just the words of the reporter, not even directly quoting anyone, so I wouldn't put any weight on it. The reporter has to cover lots of topics, it's doubtful he knows the exact implication of saying "Anatolian farmers".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    It's just the words of the reporter, not even directly quoting anyone, so I wouldn't put any weight on it. The reporter has to cover lots of topics, it's doubtful he knows the exact implication of saying "Anatolian farmers".
    I disagree, it's consistent with the video posted. They do seem to actually think IE spread with the spread of farming. So Sardinians are the purest Aryans lol (I'm obviously not being serious before anyone freaks out)

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    I just got a ten second vortex in my head were every knowledge i had from the subject and this max planck conclusion mingled and created in my head a dramatic lost of comprehension about the world and everything. But i'm happy to be alive to see the future.

    Btw, " Yamnaya herders from western Asia ".

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    [Deleted because people probably don't know what a joke is]

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    Does ANYBODY have a clue how Max Planck can believe this? I align with Harvard and Reich pretty well, they don't seem to believe in ridiculous things such as IVC spoke Indo-Aryan, Danubian farmers spoke Centum IE etc. Do they have some data we don't to lead them in that direction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Yeah the emphasis of Yamnaya being Western Asian (when the Pontic-Caspian Steppe is clearly in Europe) is political correctness, the author should be looked into (hopefully he isn't Jewish lol as he looks it :P - I'm just kidding (but my Jewdar is max-level)). I don't, however, think Max Planck is influenced by political correctness - I think they're being genuine. How they reached their conclusions, though, I have no idea...

    I AM JOKING about the Jewish part by the way, before any accusations come in. His motives have to be questioned though, Southern Russia isn't in Asia.
    I think hard science is by default ( i could be wrong ) protected against political correctness because it revolves against logical deduction. And deduction is a big part in archeogenetic most of them already acknowledge it, like using deduction when using calculators ( exemple: if modern southeast asian ancestry pops up in mesolithic baltic, there is an obvious error ). I think however to other reasons, that i will keep to myself. But they probably gonna vulgarize their position in a few times, even if only one week earlier, they linked PIE with the increase of CHG/Iran ancestry component... It might also being a big mistake by the author of the article himself, he might didn't get the conclusion, or i dont know.

    Can we not all have jokes about George Soros? ;D

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    I wonder where in the study it says Yamnaya inherited 10 % to 18 % from 'eastern European farmers'. And to what extent the DNA of those 'eastern European farmers' differs from the regular neolithic European?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think hard science is by default ( i could be wrong ) protected against political correctness because it revolves against logical deduction. And deduction is a big part in archeogenetic most of them already acknowledge it, like using deduction when using calculators ( exemple: if modern southeast asian ancestry pops up in mesolithic baltic, there is an obvious error ). I think however to other reasons, that i will keep to myself. But they probably gonna vulgarize their position in a few times, even if only one week earlier, they linked PIE with the increase of CHG/Iran ancestry component... It might also being a big mistake by the author of the article himself, he might didn't get the conclusion, or i dont know.

    Can we not all have jokes about George Soros? ;D
    It isn't the author manipulating anything as that video clearly shows they think it spread with farmers. If they found no Steppe in Anatolia and Steppe already existing in India before the Andronovo expansion, I guess I can see why they'd think that, but they'd surely be wrong

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Does ANYBODY have a clue how Max Planck can believe this? I align with Harvard and Reich pretty well, they don't seem to believe in ridiculous things such as IVC spoke Indo-Aryan, Danubian farmers spoke Centum IE etc. Do they have some data we don't to lead them in that direction?
    Maybe they deciphered Linear A and find it to be Indo-European :)) Though even that wouldn't be enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Maybe they deciphered Linear A and find it to be Indo-European :)) Though even that wouldn't be enough.
    Linear A COULD be Anatolian-like - I won't speculate too much but it's something I could believe.

    The implications are pretty big though, as Linear A has loads of similarities with certain aspects of Danubian scripts IIRC. Perhaps it's a Pelasgian thing - but Vinca is MUCH older than Minoan

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It isn't the author manipulating anything as that video clearly shows they think it spread with farmers. If they found no Steppe in Anatolia and Steppe already existing in India before the Andronovo expansion, I guess I can see why they'd think that, but they'd surely be wrong
    No but... You cannot say one week " we link PIE with increase of CHG/Iran " and the other one " we link PIE with Anatolian Farmers ". This is science not a debate between two bipolar persons. That is gonna be called out by the community and other scientists non affiliate with Jena, Planck, Harvard whatsoever. inb4 Harvard Gate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Does ANYBODY have a clue how Max Planck can believe this? I align with Harvard and Reich pretty well, they don't seem to believe in ridiculous things such as IVC spoke Indo-Aryan, Danubian farmers spoke Centum IE etc. Do they have some data we don't to lead them in that direction?

    Wasn't Maykop like G2a/L1a? So more likely to be from EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    No but... You cannot say one week " we link PIE with increase of CHG/Iran " and the other one " we link PIE with Anatolian Farmers ". This is science not a debate between two bipolar persons. That is gonna be called out by the community and other scientists non affiliate with Jena, Planck, Harvard whatsoever. inb4 Harvard Gate.

    Harvard has stuck with a certain branch of CHG-like ancestry being PIE for a long time, they haven't changed. As regard to MP - I just don't know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Can'tFightTruthM8s View Post
    They can not stop free speech... So why change the settings on this thread. Closet ra ci sts.
    What are you talking about, nobody is censoring anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Linear A COULD be Anatolian-like - I won't speculate too much but it's something I could believe.

    The implications are pretty big though, as Linear A has loads of similarities with certain aspects of Danubian scripts IIRC. Perhaps it's a Pelasgian thing - but Vinca is MUCH older than Minoan
    If Minoan is IE and there is a relationship between the scripts you mentioned then related IE speakers might have moved to Balkans and then Indo-Europeanized the steppes. I think Balkan origin of PIE was one of the options on Eurogenes' blog.
    This is a total speculation though and may be complete nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    If Minoan is IE and there is a relationship between the scripts you mentioned then related IE speakers might have moved to Balkans and then Indo-Europeanized the steppes. I think Balkan origin of PIE was one of the options on Eurogenes' blog.
    This is a total speculation though and may be complete nonsense.
    A Balkan origin doesn't seem right, is all I'll say. Also, Minoan isn't likely to be IE even if I think it and Tyrsenian might be Anatolian-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Wasn't Maykop like G2a/L1a? So more likely to be from EEF.
    That's a real dead end, the G2a in Maykop is the same as nowadays Georgia. All Southern haplogroups from this study, are today well represented in Caucasian languages. That's an overkill for this hypothesis. And no, it was L2/L595, not L1a wich was Areni-1 cave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Does ANYBODY have a clue how Max Planck can believe this?
    They have a very similar understanding of the issue as my own, so what don't you understand? They're not saying it spread with early farmers they're saying it spread with CHG mountain herders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    They have a very similar understanding of the issue as my own, so what don't you understand? They're not saying it spread with early farmers they're saying it spread with CHG mountain herders.
    You didn't read anything then. They're saying it spread with farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    That's a real dead end, the G2a in Maykop is the same as nowadays Georgia. All Southern haplogroups from this study, are today well represented in Caucasian languages. That's an overkill for this hypothesis. And no, it was L2/L595, not L1a wich was Areni-1 cave.
    Well Wang's hypothesis is language transfer without admixture I guess.

    Seems to me like something they made up as they went, like the hybrid hypothesis in general. Verging on pseudoscience even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    You didn't read anything then. They're saying it spread with farmers.
    You're just misinterpreting what they're showing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Well Wang's hypothesis is language transfer without admixture I guess.

    Seems to me like something they made up as they went, like the hybrid hypothesis in general. Verging on pseudoscience even.
    The have the weight that this actually already happened, with Romans and their conquered peoples. It's then a No EHG Anatolia/Cultural Conquest hypothesis. It's also fits well in the " Caucasus was a sink " idea of David Reich, everything goes straight in like a Puzzle, when it only concerns hypothesis of scientists that have relationship with each others, wich there is probably a pejorative word for such synergies just like collusion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    You're just misinterpreting what they're showing.
    I don't think I am - they're clearly referring to the Steppe Maykop outliers as signs of Maykop making a tiny ethnic contribution that was involved in culturally rather than demically spreading PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I don't think I am - they're clearly referring to the Steppe Maykop outliers as signs of Maykop making a tiny ethnic contribution that was involved in culturally rather than demically spreading PIE.
    Wang et. al:

    Reply: We’re afraid that this might be a misunderstanding. There is indeed very limited gene flow between the Caucasus and the steppe groups (apart from the examples highlighted). However, we have based our PIE-related speculations on the observation that the CHG/Iranian (green) ancestry component is increasing already during the Eneolithic north of the Caucasus. This led us to propose that this might be the actual ‘tracer dye’ of an early PIE spread, which could then also accommodate the spread of PIE south of the mountain range where this ancestry component also rises in frequency resulting in a relatively homogenised dual ancestry (Anatolian + Iranian farming-related ancestry) in Chalcolithic times (see also brown arrow in Figure 2).

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