News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

Assuming those evidences are true, then why must they mean a spread to the steppes essentially in the 5yh millennium BC and not before? There was CHG-like admixture even in Mesolithic EHG, I would not be totally surprised if a relevant part if the CHG affinities in the steppes (at least its southeastern portion) dated to even before the arrival of the Neolithic package there and increased even more after it. I think samples going from roughly 6000 to 4500 BC could help us a lot to determine what happened. By 4200 BC the steppes were already full of CHG and later there was IIRC only incremental increase of an admixture process that was already nearly complete by the Chalcolithic. That is why I think there is little more than wishful thinking in linking Maykop or any post-Leyla Tepe Caucasian culture to the steppe cultures that would participate in the origin of Yamnaya and CWC.

I don't see any CHG in Samara 5,600 BC, nor in Ukraine up to 4,700 BC. The first time I've noticed it appearing is in Khvalynsk 4,600 BC, and at very variable levels (between 0 and 27%) making it look like a recent addition to the mix.

CHG appears heavily in a Khvalynsk sample that best-fits with Eastern and Southern populations, but with North Caucasus more than Iranian, so I think a Western Caspian origin looks a good possibility.

My calculations suggest four separate lasting early CHG pulses into mainland Europe, each relatively minor, but with cumulative effect -
1. With the Neolithic expansion from Anatolia into North Central Europe - 6th millennium BC
2. With the migration of Suvorovo from the southern Steppe into the Balkans/Carpathians - 5th millennium BC
3. With a migration from the Western Caucasus (Maykop?) into the Balkans/Carpathians - 4th millennium BC
4. With the migration of Yamnayans into the Eastern Baltic - around 3,000 BC
(There were also pulses from Yamnaya further South, which I see as largely fizzling out)
 
Has anyone thought of the fact that PIE might have been adopted by the incoming step people ?

This mixture of farmers aswell you seem to conclude all to easily that it was all from east to west.

I have a rather different picture building up which points to WHG being responsable for pie.

As far farming you dont know that they didnt just kidnap farmers and make them there slaves.

I see a warlike maritime Mob of stone building brutes that did what they please, and they were eventually just outnumbered.

Sounds like a blue print for the Romans

I don't think this can be entirely ruled out. After all, both the Neolithic Anatolians and the Chalcolithic Steppe people might have had to co-exist with WHG populations (which proliferated right across the likely early IE zone) until they acquired numerical supremacy, and might have adopted their languages as they did so.
 
I don't think this can be entirely ruled out. After all, both the Neolithic Anatolians and the Chalcolithic Steppe people might have had to co-exist with WHG populations (which proliferated right across the likely early IE zone) until they acquired numerical supremacy, and might have adopted their languages as they did so.


Correct

Here a good paper from Igor Manzura

https://www.academia.edu/9450078/STEPS_TO_THE_STEPPE_OR_HOW_THE_NORTH_PONTIC_REGION_WAS_COLONISED


And about the now rightly famous Sredni Stog guy and the origin of the culture itself see Kotova:

https://www.academia.edu/35556491/T...ransition_period_from_Neolithic_to_Eneolithic
 
I find it strange that those R1a People, up north in the forest steppe, should have taken to a geographically remote language just to please their neighbors and trade with them.


They didn't, only clueless amateurs are still saying R1a had anything to do with the spread of IE languages. No R1a has ever been found in any ancient IE population. Not Anatolians, not Greeks. not Thracians (We have an elite aristocratic sample who was J2), not Bactrians, not Germanics. Germanics are an extreme example because they must have coexisted with R1a males for at least 1000 years before the migration period and yet you can't find any R1a Germanic at that time, they were not integrated until later:
pfEfV5s.png

4ugtjgi.jpg


The Andronovo derived people(Turkics) have been ruling south Asia since 500BC with the Indo-Scythians and all subsequent Turkic invasions which is why they changed the Y-DNA profile of that region, obviously they couldn't impose their language because the region was already heavily populated.
 
Let's look at this question from a different angle - the East Ukraine outlier I6561 circa 4,000 BC with yDNA R1a-M417. It bears little autosomal resemblance to other early samples in that region, looking neither like Ukraine Neolithic nor Yamnayan. We know that multiple Suvorovo-Novodanilovka sites popped up in East Ukraine at around 4,000 BC. We know of other Suvorovo-Novodanilovka sites (some with earlier dates) in the Balkans/East Carpathians. We know that a similar autosomal mix to I6561 arose in two Bulgarian sites dated to 4,500 BC, and that the East Ukraine sites contained some Balkan-derived objects. There seems little doubt to me that I6561 was substantially an East Balkan/Carpathian Suvorovo-derived individual.

We can see that this I6561 outlier has the same yDNA as both Corded Ware and Sintashta/Indo-Aryans, and an almost identical autosomal DNA mix to both Corded Ware and Sintashta. Its Suvorovo-Novodanilovka derived community shows little signs of yDNA or autosomal mixing with any other populations over the 1,500 years that elapsed before its Corded Ware and Sintashta derivatives emerged. It looks to have been largely self-contained and endogamous, with little sign of any colonisation, subjugation or dilution from other populations, and therefore seems unlikely to have adopted any language from outside its own community. All of its many derivative populations appear to use the satem branch of Indo-European, which does not seem to arise in other populations. I6561's community looks to me a very strong candidate for proto-satem IE.

As I6561 appears to derive principally from admixed Suvorovo populations in the Balkans/Carpathians, and we know that some of these populations remained in these Western locations, it seems likely to me that these I6561-related Western-leaning populations with similar autosomal mixes were most likely (the predominantly western) proto-centum IE.

Accordingly, the early/mid-5th millennium BC East Balkans/Carpathians looks a prime candidate for a pre-satem/centum branching of IE.

Autosomally, this population appears to have been approximately 65:35 Steppe:EEF in satem Novodanilovka East Ukraine, and was likely to have been more weighted towards EEF in the centum Carpathians/Balkans. As the satem M417 populations in the East admixed very little with any other populations after 4,000 BC, I see no reason to assume that the centum M269 populations in the West would have admixed heavily either with EEF populations in the West before they spread their people and languages across Western Europe.

Based on this hypothesis, the speakers of a pre-centum/satem branching IE would have been a mixed EHG and Anatolian people with relatively minor CHG input. We have three samples likely to be substantially derived from this population and that bear the following CHG components - 10%, 11% and 0%. Especially as there is a further Anatolian branch of IE, I would say that Anatolian and Steppe populations are more likely candidates for being the major contributors to proto-IE than CHG, but who knows?

An issue with that is that archaeologists have usually interpreted Suvorovo-Novodanilovka as culturally mostly steppic, not a local development of Balkanic cultures, and have pointed out that its arrival in the archaeological record coincides with widespread destruction and displacement of the local cultures, followed by a gradual fusion. Those evidences suggest that Suvorovo-Novodanilovka came from the steppe and linked it with the Balkanic cultural horizon, not the other way around.

I am also extremely wary of an interpretation of the genetic data that rests on the assumption that this Suvorovo-Novodanilovka people spread from Western Europe BB to Central Asian Sintashta and became that numerous and widespread, not seldom through heavily warlike social ways, without any admixture whatsoever with other people, not even females of the populations already settled where they migrated to, so that even 2000 years later they would still be autosomally almost identical to their ancestors millennia earlier, indicating then total lack of admixture and complete genetic replacement. That is possible, but I doubt it was likely to have happened that way. I think there is a reason why most scholars prefer to investigate alternative hypotheses.

By the way, could you post the results of the models and calculations you have used to derive those conclusions? That would be interesting to us all here, especially to understand the evidences better, as well as the proxy populations you have used.
 
The idea that a language other than Indo-European can be attributed to R1a populations is farcical and should not be discussed in any forum that claims to be scientific. The preponderance of R1b in the Atlantic Fringe can be attributed best to founder effects in sparsely populated lands after an original small R1b-L51 community living in what is now Germany was Indo-Europeanized by Corded Ware migrants, and the Balkan communities are the result of a substantial native population adopting the language of their conquerors; the Greeks and Thracians appear on the historical stage over a thousand years after the Indo-European invasions of their areas.
 
Has anyone thought of the fact that PIE might have been adopted by the incoming step people ?

This mixture of farmers aswell you seem to conclude all to easily that it was all from east to west.

I have a rather different picture building up which points to WHG being responsable for pie.

As far farming you dont know that they didnt just kidnap farmers and make them there slaves.

I see a warlike maritime Mob of stone building brutes that did what they please, and they were eventually just outnumbered.

Sounds like a blue print for the Romans

That is quite unlikely due to the very nature of the IE expansion throughout a very wide and genetically varied territory and in multiple waves, not in just one wave, let alone only towards the West (Europe west of the Balkans). When PIE appeared, the territory around which it was more probably spoken was inhabited mainly by EHG and mostly ANF EEF since millenia earlier, and Anatolian farmers had arrived there as the economically and socially stronger society with a much higher population growth, with almost negligible admixture with the WHG until the Middle-Late Neolithic. In encounters between more advanced farmers and hunter-gatherers throughout the world, the language of the farmers always prevailed.

PIE speakers spread their language or rather daughter languages to PIE in a huge stretch of land that certainly did not speak a uniform language or even language family, so if some of them adopted the language of other people some other steppe peoples, mainly those who expanded more to the esst or south, would have retained their original language, and not spread the IE of the "maritime mob".

Ultimately what you think looks just like wishful thinking and a speculation without any solid evidence to base it on. You seem to really want to derive everything, from language to civilization, to the supposedly very ancient WHG maritime "empire" of the North Sea region with their megaliths and so on. But PIE clearly did not have much at all to do with what was going much to the west, it was too late to have adopted a homogeneous language from that "maritime mob" (the language of whom would certainly have split by then just like it happened with Latin), and for it to have been originally a common dialect continuum it must have started in a pretty smaller and definite area. Even if that "maritime WHG empire" had indeed existed, there is nothing to suggest it had anything to do with the IE expansion in the Bronze Age. Different timelines and historic processes. Much of the IE expansion in fact seems to have been very "inland", not at all very related to maritime expansions from the coasts.
 
Let's probably wait of big Suvorovo-Novodanilovka samples before having any conclusions about those cultures. Yamnaya was R1b and not R1a, Mariupol was I2a2 and not R1b. Maykop was G and J and not R1b. What if Suvorovo individuals from east balkans turns out to be, let's sayin' G2a2a? I'm still fond of the fact that ancestry must been, especially in the case of EEF and CHG being female mediated, because looking at all those regional cultures that have different y-dna, what exactly are the odds that almost all samples in all studies should be the exemple of a regional founder effect? How exactly Wang thinks CHG increase into Steppe without any south caucasian y-dna lineages? It's very unlikely that we only have samples from founder effects isn't?
 
The idea that a language other than Indo-European can be attributed to R1a populations is farcical and should not be discussed

Just sort the populations of central Asia by R1a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_North_Asia
You'll get dozens of Turkic groups at the top from all over Eurasia.

5vrMsVG.jpg


How come there are not dozens of IE speaking groups at the top instead?

Besides the original distribution of R1a is pretty much the Turkic world:
XQHrWyS.png


Before the Muscovy expansions even the European side was full of Turkic speaking Khanates.

So actually it's pretty easy to attribute a language other than Indo-European to them.
 
Ancient DNA shows that from Bactria to Italy the Indo-European world used to be a genetic continuum centered around the south Caucasus
wvfUR2h.png


Only the most fringe regions of the IE world like northern Europe were outliers.

This graph probably just shows that from Afghanistan to Mediterranea, Steppe component became a minority superstrat over an already CHG superstrat over an EEF strat. Wich is basically what is already shown in multiple samples from prehistoric Greece and Italy. There is no Northern IE genetic continuum and Southern IE genetic continuum. Steppe component replaced more easily peoples north of the 45° parralel north, than south of it. Why? That's the question for another study.
 
The idea that a language other than Indo-European can be attributed to R1a populations is farcical and should not be discussed in any forum that claims to be scientific. The preponderance of R1b in the Atlantic Fringe can be attributed best to founder effects in sparsely populated lands after an original small R1b-L51 community living in what is now Germany was Indo-Europeanized by Corded Ware migrants, and the Balkan communities are the result of a substantial native population adopting the language of their conquerors; the Greeks and Thracians appear on the historical stage over a thousand years after the Indo-European invasions of their areas.

I think it all hinges on the Y-DNA of the elites in the prominent metal age sites like Hallstatt/Jastorf/Apenninic/Grave Circles A & B. I believe one possibility is that these were founded by migrants from the predominantly R1a populations which survived in the east after their initial pushback at the hands of the Beakers. These movements were responsible for all attested and extant IE languages in Western Europe and Greece, so there's really no need to waste much thought on the lost languages that preceded them.
 
Just sort the populations of central Asia by R1a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_North_Asia
You'll get dozens of Turkic groups at the top from all over Eurasia.

5vrMsVG.jpg


How come there are not dozens of IE speaking groups at the top instead?

Besides the original distribution of R1a is pretty much the Turkic world:
XQHrWyS.png


Before the Muscovy expansions even the European side was full of Turkic speaking Khanates.

So actually it's pretty easy to attribute a language other than Indo-European to them.

Oh, man, really? The Turkic expansion, East Asian shift of Central Asia and the Eurasian steppe, and Turkification of former Scytho-Sarmatians have been amply documented and were processes that happened in historic times and could be therefore accompanied by written accounts in addition to increasing genetic and archaeological evidences. Turkic in that region is a clear consequence of the Migration Period and the first Khanates documented west of the Altai, all of that a process that dates to the Late Antiquity onward. This is really not a good counter-example about R1a or any other haplogroup and its linguistic associations.
 
They didn't, only clueless amateurs are still saying R1a had anything to do with the spread of IE languages. No R1a has ever been found in any ancient IE population. Not Anatolians, not Greeks. not Thracians (We have an elite aristocratic sample who was J2), not Bactrians, not Germanics. Germanics are an extreme example because they must have coexisted with R1a males for at least 1000 years before the migration period and yet you can't find any R1a Germanic at that time, they were not integrated until later:

The Andronovo derived people(Turkics) have been ruling south Asia since 500BC with the Indo-Scythians and all subsequent Turkic invasions which is why they changed the Y-DNA profile of that region, obviously they couldn't impose their language because the region was already heavily populated.

??? No link between R1a and IE? When BB moved in, CWC, as a culture, disappeared. Archaeologists seem to unanimously think CW R1a massively moved east to develop the Sintashta Culture. Which in turn ushered in the Andronovo Culture. Which took Indo-Iranian languages to Central Asia first, then South Asia. Those cultures were all predominantly R1a.

It's easy enough to follow the trail. And it's hard to claim Sanskrit was not an IE language.

By the way, discussion is welcome. Calling people names is much less so. We are all clueless amateurs here.
 
??? No link between R1a and IE? When BB moved in, CWC, as a culture, disappeared. Archaeologists seem to unanimously think CW R1a massively moved east to develop the Sintashta Culture. Which in turn ushered in the Andronovo Culture. Which took Indo-Iranian languages to Central Asia first, then South Asia. Those cultures were all predominantly R1a.

It's easy enough to follow the trail. And it's hard to claim Sanskrit was not an IE language.

By the way, discussion is welcome. Calling people names is much less so. We are all clueless amateurs here.

It's always a good idea to challenge those narratives. I mean how much R1a was there in Gandhara Grave culture? One (late) R1a out of 30 males?
 
It's always a good idea to challenge those narratives. I mean how much R1a was there in Gandhara Grave culture? One (late) R1a out of 30 males?

Yes. But in terms of who was the vector that spread IE languages, the one candidate is R1a. Sintashta : 100% R1a. Andronovo: 71.5% R1a. (Maciamo's figures)

Narasimhan et al. 2018 analyzed DNA of 362 ancient skeletons from Central and South Asia, including those from the Iron Age grave sites discovered in the Swat valley of Pakistan (between 1200 BCE and 1 CE from Aligrama, Barikot, Butkara, Katelai, Loe Banr, and Udegram). According to them, "there is no evidence that the main BMAC population contributed genetically to later South Asians", and that "Indus Periphery-related people are the single most important source of ancestry" in Indus Valley Civilization and South Asia. They further state that the Swat valley grave DNA analysis provides further evidence of "connections between [Central Asian] Steppe population and early Vedic culture in India".
 
It's always a good idea to challenge those narratives. I mean how much R1a was there in Gandhara Grave culture? One (late) R1a out of 30 males?

Tanais was clearly a greek city founded near Indo-Iranian people ( scythians ) and they were R1a. If we need to challenge a narrative, let's taking it in the whole and not just some exemples, especially the ones that are that complexe as the post-indus valley.
 
Hajji Firuz R1b from 5500 BC was very weird too. I wonder if they tested it for dating again.
 
Yes. But in terms of who was the vector that spread IE languages, the one candidate is R1a. Sintashta : 100% R1a. Andronovo: 71.5% R1a. (Maciamo's figures)

Could be true, but it would be another instance where the jealously patrilineal IEs as they are portrayed abandon their traditional ways just at the critical moment. It will be interesting what Grave Circle A/B will show in terms of Y-DNA - once we have those the question of LPIE will be more or less settled.

For Indo-Iranian I think there are other possibilities that ought to be looked at as well.
 
Where does the Vinca culture fit into all this, oldest writing system found so far I believe!!
Were any vinca skeletons DNA tested?

Yes.

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE: I1889:
mtDNA: K1a2
Y-DNA: G2a2a

I1895:
mtDNA: H26

I1896:
mtDNA: K2a
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a


I1887, Vinca, 5400-5000 BCE: I1887:
mtDNA: T2b
Y-DNA: H2

As far as their ancestry, i dont remember but it's in the study certainly. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/114488v1
 
This graph probably just shows that from Afghanistan to Mediterranea, Steppe component became a minority superstrat over an already CHG superstrat over an EEF strat. Wich is basically what is already shown in multiple samples from prehistoric Greece and Italy. There is no Northern IE genetic continuum and Southern IE genetic continuum. Steppe component replaced more easily peoples north of the 45° parralel north, than south of it. Why? That's the question for another study.

Bingo! It is a mistake to think of these population samples merely as an indication of IE + previous people. The genetic layers blended together untik they formed the present population structure were certainly more varied and numerous, and the population movements did not just involve the bearers of IE to each of those lands. More specifically, an admixture Y receiving a CHG-rich influx and later a minirity steppe influx with heavy CHG admixture too would obviously be shifted towards the Caucasus/Iranian cluster, and only slightly shifted toward the more EHG-rich steppe.
 

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