News Article on Wang Paper - PIE is Anatolian again?

Is no one seeing a pattern here? There are people who have been posting drivel here for years. Fine. Post it. No one will bother you.

That's different from rants, insults, and accusations of racism because someone doesn't agree with your views, or indeed from constant attacks on researchers who don't support your own "theories".

I will not allow reasoned, fact based discourse from taking place here because people are afraid if they voice an opinion on certain topics certain groups of members will attack them.


IT IS GOING TO STOP.
 
Can we just take a moment to keep in mind that we are speaking of prehistoric contexte and that apart if the 4th Reich would come from Iran or Turkey and claim the supremacy over the world, absolutely nothing of those studies and results would change something in our own life. That's interesting when a personnal intuition is confirmed by datas, but taking those historical contextes too seriously is pretty toxic and tryhard. Obsessions can never be that good for one own.
 
I second that.

This refusal to accept the results of population genetics because they don't fit preconceived myths or agendas is idiotic, as is the idea that all the population geneticists in the world are engaged in some sort of massive conspiracy.

Conspiracy is a big word, and it's probably not that. But, reading some of the sentences of those scientists ( we except a certain knowledge on things that we dont have ourselves ) something, either they are clumsy, or i dont know.

Such as call Yamnaya, Western Asia.

Such as making a distinction between Pontic Steppe and " mainland Europe " ( didn't know russia was an island ).

Such as saying that the introduction of Steppe component was new to Europe.

It might just be a sensationalistic way of wrighting things, but anyway, certain terminologies and concepts that we see emerge by those scientists can make us question their real capabilities.

I think one of the most dangerous thing, is to believe scientists are more able, or knowledgeable than the common people.
 
Fair enough. But East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were, as you point out, the result of a long period of admixing.

If the populations further west end up looking genetically like them, it means the original influx of steppe genes into western Europe can't have come from those already heavily admixed East Balkan pops. Unetice is much closer to Yamna than, say, Mycenians. So the steppe people who moved into western Europe in Bell Beaker times must have bypassed not only what was left of Maykop, but also those areas where the previous steppe migrations had ended up (Suvorovo, Cernavoda, Ezero, etc) in former Cucuteni territory. In other words, the people who brought western-PIE languages into western Europe left from somewhere near the Volga and made it straight to Hungary, Czechia, Germany in an exceedingly short time. My guess is that they were L51.

As to whether they had initially taken their language from Maykop people - as the article linked in post 1 above suggests - without much demic contact to speak of, well, I find it dubious at best.


Mostly agree. So Eastern Yamnaya (Volga Region) were the real Steppe people that massively expanded and spread most of the PIE languages but the problem is, we don't have any R1b-L51 found there yet only R1b-Z2103 IIRC. Now there is also the problem of CWC being R1a instead of R1b, why the profound change in elites, maybe indoeuropeanisation of the R1a folk ?

About 31:00, he says "all other steppe cultures disappeared suddenly", so steppe Maykop and others around the East Yamnaya.

If the PIE-homeland is south of the Caucasus, it has to be before 5000BC, David Reich still thinks that there is possibly a source population for Anatolians and Steppe people, like he wrote in his book. He gave an interview some weeks ago where he still referred to the steppe as LPIE and interessingly in this video he described the Yamnaya as mix of Eastern HG and Iranian farmers ,why not CHG?

It kinda seems that some redhaired individuals were part of every major steppe expansion, maybe the commoners ? Macciamo also wrote that. (Compare for example Scots and Udmurt)
 
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Fair enough. But East Balkan Chalcolithic populations were, as you point out, the result of a long period of admixing.
If the populations further west end up looking genetically like them, it means the original influx of steppe genes into western Europe can't have come from those already heavily admixed East Balkan pops.

Exactly the converse. If the populations further West look genetically like people from the East Balkan Chalcolithic, it surely means the original influx of Steppe genes into Western Europe most likely came from them. Why instead assume that these West European populations must have come from Yamnayan populations who lived further away and looked genetically less like them?

So the steppe people who moved into western Europe in Bell Beaker times must have bypassed not only what was left of Maykop, but also those areas where the previous steppe migrations had ended up (Suvorovo, Cernavoda, Ezero, etc) in former Cucuteni territory.

There's no reason why Yamnayans must have bypassed anybody. The data suggests they pushed Cernavoda people into Ezero, they or Cernavoda pushed Suvorovo people into Vucedol and Bell Beaker, they pushed Novodanilovka people into Corded Ware, and they subsequently fizzled out. That is why R1b-Z2103 is a very small minority in Europe today and why Europe has a very minor amount of CHG today. This myth that it was Yamnayans coming directly from the Volga who stormed all over Europe from Spain to Scandinavia eliminating everyone in their path is unfortunately repeated as a misleading mantra by many geneticists, and merely serves to fuel conspiracy theories about their motives, discrediting the entire discipline.

In other words, the people who brought western-PIE languages into western Europe left from somewhere near the Volga and made it straight to Hungary, Czechia, Germany in an exceedingly short time. My guess is that they were L51.
We have no data to show such people moved from the Volga, taking an odd route bypassing everyone else, and no data to indicate which languages they would have spoken had they done so. If they were L51, for which we also have no supporting data, I do not see why they would have headed for Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany in particular, when the data suggests a clear coalescence point for extant L51 in France, and that only a few very downstream sub-subclades of L51 spread from there to Hungary and Germany.
 
Autosomal data suggests the stable, core, majority elements of IE (Bell Beaker and Corded Ware derived) people descend from the incorporation of roving North Caucasus Steppe hunter gatherers into East Anatolian communities during the early 5th millennium BC - my guess is, probably as trading partners and/or mercenaries/bodyguards. In which case, it seems fairly likely these minority hunter gatherers would have broadly taken on the language of the majority Anatolian community with which they joined. But I do not see any way we can evidence this with any confidence, so I am not inclined to speculate one way of the other.
 
We have no data to show such people moved from the Volga, taking an odd route bypassing everyone else, and no data to indicate which languages they would have spoken had they done so. If they were L51, for which we also have no supporting data, I do not see why they would have headed for Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany in particular, when the data suggests a clear coalescence point for extant L51 in France, and that only a few very downstream sub-subclades of L51 spread from there to Hungary and Germany.

Bypassing may not have been the appropriate word. As I see things, they just drove through the extant populations, without stopping and admixing - just like the Germanic people did in Roman times. Populations seem to move clockwise at that time, with CW people moving east to form the Middle Dniepr culture, while Yamna Danube cross the Carpathians into CW territory and put and end to that culture. Maybe Yamna R1b were just chased away by incoming R1a from the northwest (?). Climatic events should not be discounted either.

I agree we have no clear evidence to date of where L51 emerged from. But L51 is distinctly associated with western PIE, which seems to have retained more ancient linguistic traits than other IE, notably satem, languages.

To get back to East Balkan populations. If, as some suppose, Ezero was where the Trojans came from, and possibly other Anatolian-speaking populations, then we do know that they were autosomally very similar to surrounding ANF, since no steppe has so far been discerned in the precious few Hittite samples. The Mycenians have been found to be very very close to Minoans autosomally, with only slight introgression of more northern genes. The Baden culture was basically farmers with a thin layer of steppe on top. Etc...

If Bell Beakers had come from such populations, and further admixed with the LBK people they encountered on the way, their steppe component would be so diluted as to be imperceptible. My guess is that Bell Beaker L51 arrived in central Europe relatively unadmixed.

At this point, I'd like to insist on the fact that "I have nothing to sell", and certainly not ideologically. I am just trying to understand. The population I belong to is not very high in steppe anyway, so I'd like to be spared the "shut up, Adolf" stuff.
 
Do we have an SNP tested study of Z2103 frequencies? I suspect it's actually less common than the frequencies reported in the older STR surveys.
 
If they were L51, for which we also have no supporting data, I do not see why they would have headed for Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany in particular, when the data suggests a clear coalescence point for extant L51 in France, and that only a few very downstream sub-subclades of L51 spread from there to Hungary and Germany.

Why? Well, the simplest reason is: because they are there. Before 2500 BC, no R1b northwest of the Danube to speak of. Then, post 2500 BC, you find one L51 in Hungary, four L2 in Czechia, three L2 and one L51 in Bavaria. I do not know of any such samples in Northern France at that date. Within three centuries, the Yamna culture in the Pontic steppe disappears. Either they were chased away, or went west for ore, the most precious stuff in their day and age - like the Californian forty-niners.

Considering the south was more densely populated, and socially more highly structured (plus, full of Z2103), they went where resistance was the weakest.

I can't think why steppe people would have moved all the way to France, then turned back instantly towards Hungary.
 
Bypassing may not have been the appropriate word. As I see things, they just drove through the extant populations, without stopping and admixing - just like the Germanic people did in Roman times.
But the Steppe ancestors of Bell Beaker did not pass through the extant populations without admixing. Their best-fit admixture is wholly with Anatolian and East European EEF. There is little or no sign of exogamous admixture with West European populations (another myth).

Populations seem to move clockwise at that time, with CW people moving east to form the Middle Dniepr culture, while Yamna Danube cross the Carpathians into CW territory and put and end to that culture. Maybe Yamna R1b were just chased away by incoming R1a from the northwest (?).
CW people look to have moved West, rather than East (perhaps under pressure from Yamna), and had probably appropriated some of the middle Dnieper culture, rather than forming it or admixing with its people. And it appears to have been Bell Beaker that ended CW from the North West (U106) and the South West (U152), with CW's remnants fleeing East and ending Yamna at pretty much the same time.

To get back to East Balkan populations. If, as some suppose, Ezero was where the Trojans came from, and possibly other Anatolian-speaking populations, then we do know that they were autosomally very similar to surrounding ANF, since no steppe has so far been discerned in the precious few Hittite samples. The Mycenians have been found to be very very close to Minoans autosomally, with only slight introgression of more northern genes. The Baden culture was basically farmers with a thin layer of steppe on top. Etc...
If Bell Beakers had come from such populations, and further admixed with the LBK people they encountered on the way, their steppe component would be so diluted as to be imperceptible.
I don't know where the culture itself came from, but the L51 people who had principally adopted it by the time of the Bell Beaker expansion had been bottlenecked and were almost certainly derived from one small isolated East European population - not from a whole host of EEF populations and certainly not from a mass invasion of tribes from the Volga. There are signs of a little Ezero-like admixture in them, but none that I can see from Baden, Minoa, Myceanae or LBK.
 
what a merry image, a culture spreading from Portugal meets somewhere in the middle a bunch of L51 coming from the Volga... and they liked so much that that they were fully beakerized and expanded such culture in all West Europe. It's kinda of influence of Saint Valentine's day, isn't?
 
Why? Well, the simplest reason is: because they are there. Before 2500 BC, no R1b northwest of the Danube to speak of.
We don't know where early R1b-L51 was, except perhaps North Central Spain (ATP3).


Then, post 2500 BC, you find one L51 in Hungary, four L2 in Czechia, three L2 and one L51 in Bavaria. I do not know of any such samples in Northern France at that date.
Which subclades of L51 were the Hungarian and Bavarian samples - has this been identified? The other 7 samples (L2) are all from the same sub-subclade 19 SNPs downstream from L51, and are certainly not indicative of a general L51 migration through these places, especially when all of the other many subclades of L51 are principally or exclusively located to the West of them.

Within three centuries, the Yamna culture in the Pontic steppe disappears. Either they were chased away, or went west for ore, the most precious stuff in their day and age - like the Californian forty-niners.
We can see where most of the extant Z2103 Yamna went, not West, but South of the Caucasus into Armenia.

I can't think why steppe people would have moved all the way to France, then turned back instantly towards Hungary.
They didn't. They weren't Steppe people. Their ancestors had moved out of the Steppe 2,000 years beforehand. And the data is suggestive of them arriving in Western Europe some considerable time before one small subset of them moved back up the Rhine to take on the threat from advancing Corded Ware.
 
Mostly agree. So Eastern Yamnaya (Volga Region) were the real Steppe people that massively expanded and spread most of the PIE languages but the problem is, we don't have any R1b-L51 found there yet only R1b-Z2103 IIRC. Now there is also the problem of CWC being R1a instead of R1b, why the profound change in elites, maybe indoeuropeanisation of the R1a folk ?

About 31:00, he says "all other steppe cultures disappeared suddenly", so steppe Maykop and others around the East Yamnaya.

If the PIE-homeland is south of the Caucasus, it has to be before 5000BC, David Reich still things that there is possibly a source population for Anatolians and Steppe people, like he wrote in his book. He gave an interview some weeks ago where he still referred to the steppe as LPIE and interessingly in this video he described the Yamnaya as mix of Eastern HG and Iranian farmers ,why not CHG?

It kinda seems that some redhaired individuals were part of every major steppe expansion, maybe the commoners ? Macciamo also wrote that. (Compare for example Scots and Udmurt)

I'm like 80% sure that's correct (the Eastern Yamnaya bit)
 
But I don't think we know for sure which languages the various groups of these people spoke, let alone which language or languages they all derived from thousands of years previously.
 
But I don't think we know for sure which languages the various groups of these people spoke, let alone which language or languages they all derived from thousands of years previously.

I think this is important to remember. We now know that in Oceania language transfer/continuity occurred completely without admixture. Something similar could have happened in Europe at any time and we really have no way of finding out because there are no island refugia or the like where populations who retained their ancestral languages survive in their pure form.
 
But the Steppe ancestors of Bell Beaker did not pass through the extant populations without admixing. Their best-fit admixture is wholly with Anatolian and East European EEF.

So maybe a bit of Trypillia after all? I can concede that.

There is little or no sign of exogamous admixture with West European populations (another myth).

Of course. All scientists agree that their migration was an extremely sudden and sweeping one. It would have taken them some time to mix with the locals. The earliest samples can't have much "local" in them, for lack of time. On the other hand, emerging - as you contend - in France, thenmoving back east toHungary, without developing any admixture with the locals seems rather improbable.

I don't know where the culture itself came from, but the L51 people who had principally adopted it by the time of the Bell Beaker expansion had been bottlenecked and were almost certainly derived from one small isolated East European population

I don't know about the bottleneck. Isolated? Maybe. But I very much doubt that a "small population" could have overrun most of western Europe, from Hungary to Spain to Britain within a time frame of three to four generations. East European population? For sure, very much so, considering where they plot on PCAs.

There are signs of a little Ezero-like admixture in them, but none that I can see from Baden, Minoa, Myceanae or LBK.

That's what I am saying. That's the reason I cited those (counter-)examples. The newcomers didn't stem from the heavily admixed populations that had resulted from the earlier advances of steppe people into the Balkans in the late 4th millenium BC. Their percentage of steppe would have been greatly diluted by 2500 BC. Any PCA you'll look at will show you that Unetice plots far too close to Yamna for the "steppe Bell Beakers" to have been largely admixed before arriving in central Europe. Their steppe ancestry was too high for them to have sojourned among farmers for a very long time. Hence: they came from the steppe.
 
So maybe a bit of Trypillia after all? I can concede that.
There is no Trypillia per se in Bell Beaker's autosomal best fit, aside from its indirect contribution to Ezero-Cernavoda.

Of course. All scientists agree that their migration was an extremely sudden and sweeping one. It would have taken them some time to mix with the locals. The earliest samples can't have much "local" in them, for lack of time. On the other hand, emerging - as you contend - in France, thenmoving back east toHungary, without developing any admixture with the locals seems rather improbable.
I don't know how scientists can agree that this hypothesised migration was extremely sudden and sweeping, as we cannot track the movements of individual people from 4,500 years ago. Genetic data suggests the expansion of L51 lineages was sudden and sweeping, but we do not know where this expansion took place, aside from the fact that phylogeny shows that most of L51's lineages coalesce to estimated origin points in France.

It wouldn't have taken much time for Bell Beaker men to mix with local women, if they were that way inclined; but it seems from the data they were generally not.

There is nothing improbable about people migrating westwards to France, then their descendants migrating back several hundred years later after coming under attack from the East. What is far more improbable is a bottlenecked L51 rapidly invading the whole of Europe from the Volga at a time when it seemed to have had only a couple of lineages in existence.

I don't know about the bottleneck.
There were only two extant L51 lineages in existence at the time the Yamnayan expansions began, per yfull - formational L52 and formational Z2118. I would call this a bottleneck. Two surviving individuals would certainly not represent a mass expansion.

Isolated? Maybe. But I very much doubt that a "small population" could have overrun most of western Europe, from Hungary to Spain to Britain within a time frame of three to four generations.
The data suggests more like eleven to twelve generations. Look at the phylogeny on yfull, and you will see the evidence of the rapid expansion in lineages for yourself, which yfull estimates to have occurred hundreds of years after the Yamnayans expanded across the Steppe.

The newcomers didn't stem from the heavily admixed populations that had resulted from the earlier advances of steppe people into the Balkans in the late 4th millenium BC. Their percentage of steppe would have been greatly diluted by 2500 BC.
Not at all if they were an endogamous group. Dilution does not occur unless you carry on admixing, nor does it necessarily occur if your admixture is with other Steppe-admixed groups, such as Dereivka or Cernavoda.
If you are so sure the percentage of Steppe would have been diluted in the earlier advances, why do you not similarly say the percentage of Steppe must also have been diluted in the later advances? Clearly it was not much diluted, as the substantial Steppe component is still evident in Western European populations today.

Any PCA you'll look at will show you that Unetice plots far too close to Yamna for the "steppe Bell Beakers" to have been largely admixed before arriving in central Europe. Their steppe ancestry was too high for them to have sojourned among farmers for a very long time. Hence: they came from the steppe.
I'm talking about Bell Beaker, rather than Unetice. Bell Beaker plots far closer to East Balkan/Suvorovo admixes than it does to Yamna. Yamna has far too much CHG to have spawned Bell Beaker; Bell Beaker's Steppe ancestors clearly split off from the Caspian Steppe people before the Yamnayan EHG/CHG combination arose.

Moreover, the Anatolian component within Bell Beaker is as stable across its population as the EHG component is, indicating that its Anatolian contribution was ancient; unlike its CHG component, which is variable and therefore likely to be a later and patchier addition to the mix. In Yamnaya, exactly the converse is true. Clearly, R1b Bell Beaker is Anatolian/East Central European in origin, and R1a Yamnaya is Caspian in origin.

If the Steppe ancestors of Bell Beaker admixed with one specific group of farmers and then stayed with the same group, there is no reason why their initial 50:50 componental split should not remain undiluted.

By the way, you did not reply to my point about how, if L51 populations surged rapidly from the Volga across Central Europe, why the only early samples of L51 that we have all seem to be from the same L2 sub-subclade that is 19 SNPs downstream from L51. Where is the evidence of all the other L51 subclades in early Central Europe? No, they are only found to its West. And even the phylogeny of L2 itself points to an origin along the Upper Rhine and Swiss Alps, rather than anywhere further East.
 
VkDDIoW.png


Proportion of Steppe ancestry in Bell Beakers, modelled as Yamnaya_Samara vs Anatolia_Neolithic+WHG.
Samara is the black chunk.

From this paper : Olalde et al. - May 9, 2017

https://www.researchgate.net/public...he_genomic_transformation_of_Northwest_Europe
At Szigetszentmiklós in Hungary, we find Beaker Complex associated individuals with very different proportions (from 0% to 74%) of Steppe ancestry but overlapping dates. This genetic heterogeneity is consistent with early stages of mixture between previously established European farmers and migrants with Steppe ancestry.

For Beaker Complex individuals from Iberia, the best fit was obtained when Middle Neolithic and Copper Age populations from the same region were used as a source for their Neolithic farmer-related ancestry, and we could exclude central and northern
European populations (P < 4.69E-03) (Fig. 2c). Conversely, the Neolithic farmer-related ancestry in Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (e.g. Globular_Amphora_LN, P = 0.14; TRB_Sweden_MN, P = 0.29)

As for samples above L2 east of Northern France:

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I7041 / M
Find location: Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor
Country: Hungary
Associated label in publication: Hungary_BA
Date: 2500–2200 BCE
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H1b1
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I4253 / M
Find location: Samborzec
Country: Poland
Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
Date: 2456–2207 calBCE (3850±20 BP, PSUAMS-2339)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5a2c
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): RISE564.SG / M
Find location: Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
Country: Germany
Associated label in publication: Bell_Beaker_Germany.SG
Date: 2500-2000 BCE
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H-T16311C
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1 (L51)
Reference: AllentoftNature2015
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I1530 / M
Find location: Rothenschirmbach
Country: Germany
Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
Date: 2458–2140 calBCE (3818±48 BP, Er-8715)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H3ao
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
Reference: MathiesonNature2015
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I0805 / M
Find location: Quedlinburg
Country: Germany
Associated label in publication: Beaker Central Europe
Date: 2467–2142 calBCE (3839±55 BP, Er-8558)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): H1
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
Reference: MathiesonNature2015
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)
 
Honestly, they are getting a bit too carried away by genetics and totally forgetting the linguistic aspects of this conundrum. Remember, IE is a language family, PIE was a language, not a genetic admixture. To pretend that the opinion of the vast majority of linguists about the cultural and social milieu that was clearly present in PIE, that is, in the last unified dialect continuum of all extant IE subgroups, is a totally unscientific thing. And that "linguistic environment" was not a Neolithic society more intensive in farming than in pastoralism, nor one that had large settlements of a proto-urban proto-civilized nature (if it is assumed to have spread in the Chalcolithic with Old Europe cultures).

Besides, they will have to explain why IE basically never appeared in any documented way (or hydronyms and toponyms) before evidences of steppe ancestry appeared in the broad region surrounding each of those areas (did steppe IE replace all other IE branches, except Anatolian, in each and every area of Eurasia? Hmm, that is so convenient), whereas a lot of mainly or partially ANF places do not have any indication of having been IE at all. Additionally, they just have to prove that Anatolian is not related at all to PIE in the steppes. Otherwise it does not matter where pre-PIE came from, because PIE would have been a steppe language anyways.

Besides, one would have to explain rare outliers like Basque/Aquitanian and the curiously Basque-like substrate words found elsewhere in Western Europe... And many other incongruences, like, for example, the fact that curiously the region with more EEF in Europe was exactly the one that had diverse non-IE languages even in the late Iron Age, including Nuragic Sardinia. And that is not considering Etruscan, which, if it were EEF and PIE too, must have diverged extremely early, because it is nothing like it.

Sorry, but I will not be convinced by rhe fact that they cannot find steppe ancestry in a handful of BA Anatolians and that EEF is found in BA Yamnaya (but actually insignificant in Chalcolithic steppe samples, and Yamnaya probably already spoke a later IE daughter language, PIE was probably Copper Age).

I could even accept PIE coming from the Caucasus, or rather pre-PIE, but from Anatolian farmers as early as their early Neolithic expansion? Hmm, no.
 
Besides, they will have to explain why IE basically never appeared in any documented way (or hydronyms and toponyms) before evidences of steppe ancestry appeared in the broad region surrounding each of those areas

There are Anatolian names from 2500 BC North West Syria (Ebla). So they need to find steppe ancestry in Anatolia before 2500 BC to prove steppes as PIE homeland.
 

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