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Thread: North Italians are genetically closer to French, Germans than to South Italians.

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    some even think the catalans are nordicts because they want independence from Spain..........that's how the nationalists portray them
    maybe, the same propaganda is used for scotland vote to leave Britain................
    the first thing nations loose is their integrity
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Irakli View Post
    Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.
    The bolded sentence is the one point with which I would disagree. That isn't the case in Italy.

    Attachment 10762


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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Irakli View Post
    Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.


    There are of course phenotypical diffrences among italians and cultural ones also. That is the case also in other countries: do you think that a Bavarian is the same as a Berlin guy. Just look at the religious differences between southern and western Germany and the eastern and northern part of the country. Just look at what's happening in Spain. And what about Belgium?
    Reality is that from all points of view Italy, despite what it is said in the mainstream media both inside and outside of the country, is one of the most homogeneus country in Europe on all accounts, ethnic, religiuos and cultural.
    I learnt very well this. I used to be when I was younger ( I'm still quite young by the way) a strong believer of the north-south divide. Once I crossed the border I realized that even Lombardy is culturally more similar to Campania than to Paris or Frankfurt.
    Strange but true

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    There are of course phenotypical diffrences among italians and cultural ones also. That is the case also in other countries: do you think that a Bavarian is the same as a Berlin guy. Just look at the religious differences between southern and western Germany and the eastern and northern part of the country. Just look at what's happening in Spain. And what about Belgium?
    Reality is that from all points of view Italy, despite what it is said in the mainstream media both inside and outside of the country, is one of the most homogeneus country in Europe on all accounts, ethnic, religiuos and cultural.
    I learnt very well this. I used to be when I was younger ( I'm still quite young by the way) a strong believer of the north-south divide. Once I crossed the border I realized that even Lombardy is culturally more similar to Campania than to Paris or Frankfurt.
    Strange but true
    Read some genetics papers.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Read some genetics papers.
    Pointless: as I clearly said: ethnic, religious and cultural: all these have nothing to do with genes.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Wow! I just got a look at this thread. I believed the aim was to try to find out the links between present (for a while) genetic situation in Italy with History, not otherwise. But I'm naive because only interested in facts when possible, not in intentions.
    It's true that on diverse PCA's I saw Italy is very stretched, more than any other country of approximatively similar size in Europe. This doesn't prejudge the cultural and today political situation. It's Italians matter.
    But yes, it has been discussed already.

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    I have not yet seen a result more South-Italian than this:



    but in totality, South Italians are way closer to North Italians than any other population.



    and yes, those are both some of my results.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    ^^That's generally although not universally true.

    This is from Di-Gaetano et al



    With different samples we might get different results, as in a place like Tuscany, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^That's generally although not universally true.

    This is from Di-Gaetano et al



    With different samples we might get different results, as in a place like Tuscany, for example.
    In my case Tuscany is included too. :)


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    I Understand that regardless of how homogenic we think we are, even when shown by 3rd party calculators, we shouldn’t take our results too seriously.

    Could be just conjecture, or totally wrong. yep

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    In my case Tuscany is included too. :)

    I don't doubt it. :)

    I just meant that there's a lot of substructure in Toscana. None of the academic samples are, for example, from the more mountainous far northwest of Toscana. I would think they'd be even closer to populations like the Piedmontese one (actually mountainous Liguria), and thus might also plot closer to the French and less close to southern populations. I've never seen an fst done with them included so I can't be sure.

    As a whole, numerous studies have shown there's more substructure in the north than in the south. It's hard to understand why other than perhaps drift because they were ruled by different foreign powers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    some even think the catalans are nordicts because they want independence from Spain..........that's how the nationalists portray them
    maybe, the same propaganda is used for scotland vote to leave Britain................
    the first thing nations loose is their integrity
    If I can get 11+% Brits on liv-dna, and auDNA was used by some as a justification for the split, the Scots made a HUGE mistake. LOL
    just sayn’

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The bolded sentence is the one point with which I would disagree. That isn't the case in Italy.

    Attachment 10762
    I don't know how it is in Italy, but that is the way it is in Anatolia and the Caucasus, so I assumed the same would happen everywhere else because it makes sense. Mountains = Strong sun = Need of hair to defend skin from damage. Coastal area = Mostly means weather much cloudier than the usual = Lighter eyes develop due to less sunlight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irakli View Post
    I don't know how it is in Italy, but that is the way it is in Anatolia and the Caucasus, so I assumed the same would happen everywhere else because it makes sense. Mountains = Strong sun = Need of hair to defend skin from damage. Coastal area = Mostly means weather much cloudier than the usual = Lighter eyes develop due to less sunlight.
    Sorry the attachment didn't work, Irakli. This is what I meant.



    Italy is a very mountainous country, yet the lighter areas are along the northern horizontal line. That represents areas with more "northern" ancestry and so is a reflection of migration. The yellow in my own area of the Lunigiana (part of Tuscany but historically part of Emilia) has been hypothesized to be a retreat for the Celt-Ligurians.


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    Interesting map. How much time do you think is necessary for a people to show signs of adaptation to the climate? Is there a certain time frame within which some mutations will occur (like blue eyes), or is that mostly random and can happen either in a few generations or in millennia? Surely with limited mixing, in a couple millennia at least the darker Northern Italians will start having lighter hair or vice versa with blonds.

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    I believe North Italians are closer to me than southern italians, Germans, etc...several Oracles put them first to my personal admixture... (just to say something).

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    In a smaller regional level, I would have expected a more Center-South linear results.
    I guess, that at an individual level, our genetics doesn’t always follow the Cardinal Points in an orderly fashion.




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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Some North Italians from Friuli are closer to Southwest French, Austrian than to Tuscan Italians even. This seems to reinforce that North Italians have significant Celto-Germanic input mixed with Italic while Central Italians seem like a mix of Italic, Celto-Germanic and Hellenic strains to some extent. South Italians are mostly Hellenic mixed with some Italic, Aberesche and Semitic.

    Udine, Friuli

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic 25.57
    2 North_Sea 19.28
    3 West_Med 16.45
    4 Baltic 11.99
    5 East_Med 11.63
    6 West_Asian 7.56
    7 Eastern_Euro 5.54
    8 Red_Sea 1.46

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_Italian @ 9.126219
    2 Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.654547
    3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.442990
    4 Portuguese @ 10.584799
    5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.117378
    6 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.212979
    7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.274429
    8 French @ 11.462400
    9 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.111115
    10 Serbian @ 12.484947
    11 Spanish_Andalucia @ 12.540326
    12 Romanian @ 13.385852
    13 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.412987
    14 Austrian @ 13.660031
    15 Spanish_Cantabria @ 13.936459
    16 Southwest_French @ 14.041196
    17 Tuscan @ 14.296636
    18 South_Dutch @ 14.655699
    19 Bulgarian @ 14.721441
    20 Spanish_Aragon @ 15.232806

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Romanian +50% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.372498

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +25% French_Basque +25% West_German @ 2.469933

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Relevant only if you consider the Friulani really Italian. Opinions differ. My Dad certainly didn't think they were real Italians. Too much Slavic and Slovenian in them. Same goes for the South Tyrol. I wouldn't care if the latter got complete autonomy, but they probably don't want that because their tax breaks are too good. You don't seem to know any Italian history: these are "late" additions.

    Now, Nizza and the surrounding areas were and are Italian, and I'd love if they were back politically, but no chance of that I'm sure. Same goes for Corsica.

    It would be nice to have Malta too. I like them.

    There, now you have an "Italian Nationalist" point of view, a post WWI and WWII nationalist point of view. It's a tragedy how many lives were lost getting some of these areas.

    I don't know when you're going to understand that the vast majority of Italians don't give a **** about this stuff.

    On Oracles I get either Spaniards or Balkanites before I get Southern Italians too. Who Cares? I certainly don't. The former are not Italian and the latter are, so they are more my brothers and sisters than the former. Ethnicity is more than just genes. Look at the difference between Tuscans and Albanians.

    "Northern" genes are not "superior" to "Southern" genes, certainly not to me. You obviously lack the ability to look through other peoples' eyes and just assume they share your point of view.
    Last edited by Angela; 21-02-19 at 20:27.

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    I am 95% Iberian and, on average, I am also a admixture of West Africans with Amerindians (5%).
    For this reason, I prefer to use oracle in "Mixed Mode Population Sharing ----> Primary Population + Secondary Population" mode.
    The display of Oracle in Mixed Population Sharing Mode - Two Populations - always confirms this ralation (95% + 5%) in most of the calculators that are ideal for the calculation of admixtures of populations of Iberian origin, according to GEDmatch itself .
    In my case, I find strange the results exhibited by Oracle 4, as shown below. I place it on only as an example, without wanting to enter into the main merit of the last subject matter treated in this topic, which would be the greater or lesser proximity of the Iberians with the Italians of the north or the south. As far as I know, I have no recent Italian ancestors.

    Thanks for attention.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 37.44
    2 West_Med 28.54
    3 East_Med 11.17
    4 Baltic 8.95
    5 Sub-Saharan 4.88
    6 West_Asian 2.32
    7 Northeast_African 2.29
    8 Red_Sea 1.67
    9 Amerindian 1.42
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.875919
    2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.084557
    3 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.363086
    4 Spanish_Galicia @ 6.723697
    5 Spanish_Murcia @ 6.738213
    6 Portuguese @ 6.779630
    7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.817693
    8 Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.959575
    9 Spanish_Valencia @ 7.106572
    10 Spanish_Cataluna @ 7.740384
    11 Spanish_Aragon @ 8.586516
    12 Southwest_French @ 9.309721
    13 North_Italian @ 13.181855
    14 French @ 14.848392
    15 Tuscan @ 19.700567
    16 French_Basque @ 19.831991
    17 South_Dutch @ 21.213432
    18 West_German @ 21.421259
    19 Southeast_English @ 25.737713
    20 Southwest_English @ 25.943127

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Spanish_Andalucia +50% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.562061

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% French_Basque +25% Tunisian +25% West_German @ 4.243699

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian + West_German @ 4.243699
    2 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.309890
    3 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + West_German @ 4.334445
    4 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.384938
    5 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.396873
    6 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Serbian @ 4.468435
    7 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French @ 4.478426
    8 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.521615
    9 French_Basque + French_Basque + South_Dutch + Tunisian @ 4.522835
    10 French + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.588130
    11 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.598396
    12 Algerian + Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.606368
    13 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.606632
    14 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + West_German @ 4.647876
    15 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 4.655926
    16 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + South_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 4.658337
    17 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + West_German @ 4.662471
    18 French_Basque + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Tunisian @ 4.713262
    19 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Tunisian @ 4.717680
    20 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.717741

  22. #47
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's ancient. I don't have any Iberian ancestors in at least the last 500 years. That's as far back as my written records go.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    It's a northwest Italian/Tuscan thing, maybe related to the Gallic/Celtic migrations.

    I get strange matches to New World Hispanics because of this.

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    That happens to me too. I get strange matches with many Italo-Brazilians.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Georgewalley View Post
    Some North Italians from Friuli are closer to Southwest French, Austrian than to Tuscan Italians even. This seems to reinforce that North Italians have significant Celto-Germanic input mixed with Italic while Central Italians seem like a mix of Italic, Celto-Germanic and Hellenic strains to some extent. South Italians are mostly Hellenic mixed with some Italic, Aberesche and Semitic.
    The Friulians are not average Italians from northern Italy. They are more northeastern than the other north Italians. This is the Italian situation in various and different PCA.








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    I don't see a problem in Italy being genetically diverse considering it's a country that stretches from Central to South Europe, it's literally in the middle of Europe, and culturally was 'the center' of European culture for circa 2 millennia.

    Yet, as much as I am pro science, Italians are Italians no matter the area they come from. They have their distinct appearance so I don't think you can confuse them with Germans or French.

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