North Italians are genetically closer to French, Germans than to South Italians.

[Salento]

if you could prove such skip it would be more convenient than point your gun first.

You’re being disingenuous, and I'm not that naive, or at least I hope so.

 

[Angela]

You’re being disingenuous, and I'm not that naive, or at least I hope so.

Some people just don't understand that we know these people, and have seen their posts on the internet in many places. I've been posting for more than ten years on this topic. I too was incredulous in the beginning, and only saw the patterns with time and, luckily, with private messages to me which revealed their motivations. I was taken in a lot in the beginning.

It's gotten to the point where I can tell some of these guys just by their "voice". I don't even need the IP address, or the fact that I recognize the "lifted" text from other sites half the time. The only way it could be clearer is if it were a screenshot posted under another name.

Honestly, I wish I were still that naive and ignorant of the reality behind a lot of the motivations in the interpretation of population genetics data. It's not pleasant knowing some people think like this.

Anyway, I'll say it again. Other than some die hard, old school fringe Lega Nord types, no Italians care about this anymore, thank God, so if the intent is to sow discord here or anywhere else, it's a fail.

If it's another Nordicist rock through the window attempt, it's also a fail. Heard that, don't care, it's nonsense.

 

[Salento]

They are obvious, especially when out of the blue, they start posting weird things on topics that don't relate to them even remotely.

 

[berun]

the OP could be a trroll or a supremacist from Thule, it could be, but my astonishment is how you come to attack him without proofs, doing just the same as racists when they can even smell negroes at kilometers, or knowing that all negroes are robbers, so keep your money safe.

 

[Salento]

Your choice of words is inappropriate and wrong.
The proof is in the pudding.
You're behaving as Contrarian.

 

[Sile]

some even think the catalans are nordicts because they want independence from Spain..........that's how the nationalists portray them
maybe, the same propaganda is used for scotland vote to leave Britain................
the first thing nations loose is their integrity

 

[Irakli]

Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.

 

[Angela]

Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.

The bolded sentence is the one point with which I would disagree. That isn't the case in Italy.

View attachment 10762

 

[etrusco]

Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.

There are of course phenotypical diffrences among italians and cultural ones also. That is the case also in other countries: do you think that a Bavarian is the same as a Berlin guy. Just look at the religious differences between southern and western Germany and the eastern and northern part of the country. Just look at what's happening in Spain. And what about Belgium?
Reality is that from all points of view Italy, despite what it is said in the mainstream media both inside and outside of the country, is one of the most homogeneus country in Europe on all accounts, ethnic, religiuos and cultural.
I learnt very well this. I used to be when I was younger ( I'm still quite young by the way) a strong believer of the north-south divide. Once I crossed the border I realized that even Lombardy is culturally more similar to Campania than to Paris or Frankfurt.
Strange but true

 

[Angela]

There are of course phenotypical diffrences among italians and cultural ones also. That is the case also in other countries: do you think that a Bavarian is the same as a Berlin guy. Just look at the religious differences between southern and western Germany and the eastern and northern part of the country. Just look at what's happening in Spain. And what about Belgium?
Reality is that from all points of view Italy, despite what it is said in the mainstream media both inside and outside of the country, is one of the most homogeneus country in Europe on all accounts, ethnic, religiuos and cultural.
I learnt very well this. I used to be when I was younger ( I'm still quite young by the way) a strong believer of the north-south divide. Once I crossed the border I realized that even Lombardy is culturally more similar to Campania than to Paris or Frankfurt.
Strange but true

Read some genetics papers.

 

[etrusco]

Read some genetics papers.

Pointless: as I clearly said: ethnic, religious and cultural: all these have nothing to do with genes.

 

[MOESAN]

Wow! I just got a look at this thread. I believed the aim was to try to find out the links between present (for a while) genetic situation in Italy with History, not otherwise. But I'm naive because only interested in facts when possible, not in intentions.
It's true that on diverse PCA's I saw Italy is very stretched, more than any other country of approximatively similar size in Europe. This doesn't prejudge the cultural and today political situation. It's Italians matter.
But yes, it has been discussed already.

 

[Salento]

I have not yet seen a result more South-Italian than this:

but in totality, South Italians are way closer to North Italians than any other population.

and yes, those are both some of my results.

 

[Angela]

^^That's generally although not universally true.

This is from Di-Gaetano et al

With different samples we might get different results, as in a place like Tuscany, for example.

 

[Salento]

^^That's generally although not universally true.

This is from Di-Gaetano et al

With different samples we might get different results, as in a place like Tuscany, for example.

In my case Tuscany is included too.

 

[Salento]

I Understand that regardless of how homogenic we think we are, even when shown by 3rd party calculators, we shouldn’t take our results too seriously.

Could be just conjecture, or totally wrong. yep

 

[Angela]

In my case Tuscany is included too.

I don't doubt it.

I just meant that there's a lot of substructure in Toscana. None of the academic samples are, for example, from the more mountainous far northwest of Toscana. I would think they'd be even closer to populations like the Piedmontese one (actually mountainous Liguria), and thus might also plot closer to the French and less close to southern populations. I've never seen an fst done with them included so I can't be sure.

As a whole, numerous studies have shown there's more substructure in the north than in the south. It's hard to understand why other than perhaps drift because they were ruled by different foreign powers.

 

[Salento]

some even think the catalans are nordicts because they want independence from Spain..........that's how the nationalists portray them
maybe, the same propaganda is used for scotland vote to leave Britain................
the first thing nations loose is their integrity

If I can get 11+% Brits on liv-dna, and auDNA was used by some as a justification for the split, the Scots made a HUGE mistake. LOL
just sayn’

 

[Irakli]

The bolded sentence is the one point with which I would disagree. That isn't the case in Italy.

View attachment 10762

I don't know how it is in Italy, but that is the way it is in Anatolia and the Caucasus, so I assumed the same would happen everywhere else because it makes sense. Mountains = Strong sun = Need of hair to defend skin from damage. Coastal area = Mostly means weather much cloudier than the usual = Lighter eyes develop due to less sunlight.

 

[Angela]

I don't know how it is in Italy, but that is the way it is in Anatolia and the Caucasus, so I assumed the same would happen everywhere else because it makes sense. Mountains = Strong sun = Need of hair to defend skin from damage. Coastal area = Mostly means weather much cloudier than the usual = Lighter eyes develop due to less sunlight.

Sorry the attachment didn't work, Irakli. This is what I meant.

Italy is a very mountainous country, yet the lighter areas are along the northern horizontal line. That represents areas with more "northern" ancestry and so is a reflection of migration. The yellow in my own area of the Lunigiana (part of Tuscany but historically part of Emilia) has been hypothesized to be a retreat for the Celt-Ligurians.