New paper about auDNA of current Iberia

[Carlos]

It is incomprehensible that someone in Europe can believe or think that black slaves left a genetic imprint 300 years ago in Andalusian society, how do you think that society should be? for it would have the same prejudices as if those same blacks place them in any other region of central Europe, France, e.t.c. If we move this Chinese story instead of in Andalusia to any other part of Europe would they be willing to believe it?
Is it unimaginable, poor blacks torn from their continent, when they arrive in Andalusia they do not know the language, there are biological prejudices because of the color of their skin, they belong to the lowest strata of society, at what moment do they start to go to Andalusian parents to ask for the hands of their daughters? if the marriage between slaves was prohibited and slavery in Spain was eradicated approximately 130 years ago.

 

[Ygorcs]

It is incomprehensible that someone in Europe can believe or think that black slaves left a genetic imprint 300 years ago in Andalusian society, how do you think that society should be? for it would have the same prejudices as if those same blacks place them in any other region of central Europe, France, e.t.c. If we move this Chinese story instead of in Andalusia to any other part of Europe would they be willing to believe it? Is it unimaginable, poor blacks torn from their continent, when they arrive in Andalusia they do not know the language, there are biological prejudices because of the color of their skin, they belong to the lowest strata of society, at what moment do they start to go to Andalusian parents to ask for the hands of their daughters? if the marriage between slaves was prohibited and slavery in Spain was eradicated approximately 130 years ago.

I think you're not being imaginative enough and resorting to some conspiratorial thinking as if people really wanted to assign Subsaharan ancestry to Andalusians without any real evidence (and why would they do that? Is that a bad thing?). The relatively recent contribution from Subsaharan African ancestry (ancestry - not necessarily Subsaharan people) is extremely minor, you would not need many instances of individual admixture to achieve that. People who belong to the lowest strata of society managed to make children with other people of the lowest strata of society especially when they are a tiny and scattered minority. They do not necessarily need to "ask for the hands of the daughters of Andalusian parents". If it was remotely close to the racial mixing in Latin America, it was certainly much more the case of the white man asking for the hand of the daughter of black parents. No, even that would have been much rarer. In fact, a lot of concubinage, out of marriage sex, or even rape happened, and many would have born children to white men as their mistresses, not lawful wives, so prohibition of interracial marriage would not have stopped that anyways. Finally, you should also think that it is perfectly possible that much of that Subsaharan ancestry actually introgressed into the Andalusian gene pool via Hispanic American criollos and mestizos with some amount of African ancestry (and I presume many visited the port cities of that region during the colonial era), and not directly via African slaves. Those people would not have found it as hard to marry local wives and husbands, because they were not visibly black, and that ancestry would get increasingly diluted in the following generations away from any additional African input.

 

[Duarte]

Unknown history of Portugal: the mulattoes of Sado.


Part of Portugal's history is still unknown to many of us. In century XVI the valley of the Sado was populated with slaves.


For centuries Lezíria and Ribeira do Sado were an uninhabited territory, with a reputation for unhealthiness, surrounded by heaths.


In the century XVI, many Portuguese boarded the ships, which further aggravated the existing demographic deficit. That was the reason why, at that time, the owners of the fertile lands bathed by the Sado would have resolved to populate them with negroes, bought in the slave markets. The mulattoes of the Sado of our day are therefore descendants of these former black slaves.


Whoever now walks along the Ribeira do Sado, you will no longer see truly black people before your eyes.


The miscegenation has already consummated itself completely. But the physiognomic features observable in many of the region's inhabitants, as well as the darker color of their skin, are immediately evident, and they immediately refer us to Africa south of the Sahara

 

[Carlos]

To Ygorcs

At present anyone can have a refrigerator, an iron, a washing machine, e.t.c. even many unskilled workers may have a housekeeper, but at that time 300 years ago very few could have black slaves and if there were mulatto children they would have remained slaves. In Seville blacks were allowed to have a brotherhood of Holy Week in the 19th century it is known that there were very few, slavery was still in force and it was impossible for these slaves to enter into marriage with native Andalusians. In the 19th century I do not think there was a mentality prepared for something like that either. We invite you to the wedding to be held with my daughter and a slave or vice versa. We are more than 8 million Andalusians and pretending that the Andalusian population has black ancestry 300 years ago is unfeasible as you can say Oxford Cambridge or the mother of the lamb. In those same Andalusian ports the native population had seen the departure of thousands of expelled Moors, had seen the persecution and expulsion of Jews, could have lived the taboo or fear of hiding any Jewish or Moorish ascendant to think that poor black slaves arrive and they get mixed with the Andalusian population. About Native American slaves it is true that they also arrived in Spain, but Queen Elizabeth gave them freedom immediately to prevent Columbus from exercising that right since she was the queen and she commanded, so the few or many Native Americans who arrived to Spain were free. Isabel l demonstrated on many occasions great humanity as she also freed the Catalan peasantry from the high abusive taxes to which they were subjected by the Catalan nobility. As soon as they find out in Oxford they locate the population where their descendants should be now and they put us quickly 10% of Native American, by my parate there is no problem, but apparently there must be sectors, someone or some alguinenes that are interested in lying about Andalusia or Spain to the tests I refer.

 

[Carlos]

[CITA = Duarte; 567347] Historia desconocida de Portugal: los mulatos de Sado.


Parte de la historia de Portugal aún es desconocida para muchos de nosotros. En el siglo XVI el valle del Sado estaba poblado de esclavos.


Durante siglos, Lezíria y Ribeira do Sado fueron un territorio deshabitado, con una reputación de insalubridad, rodeado de brezales.


En el siglo XVI, muchos portugueses abordaron los barcos, lo que agravó aún más el déficit demográfico existente. Esa fue la razón por la que, en ese momento, los propietarios de las fértiles tierras bañadas por el Sado habrían resuelto poblarlos con negros, comprados en los mercados de esclavos. Los mulatos del Sado de nuestros días son, por lo tanto, descendientes de estos antiguos esclavos negros.


Quienquiera que ahora camina a lo largo de la Ribeira do Sado, ya no verá a personas verdaderamente negras ante sus ojos.


El mestizaje ya se ha consumado por completo. Pero las características fisonómicas observables en muchos de los habitantes de la región, así como el color más oscuro de su piel, son evidentes de inmediato, y de inmediato nos remiten a África al sur del Sahara [/ QUOTE]

In Spain these blacks the few who would have retired from the cities to some rural area when slavery is abolished about 130 years ago. It is real, it is known, it exists, but I see the specific and very localized events. In the case of Spain or Andalusia is recent from the 19th century when also in specific cases begin to mix, are small or medium-sized people to be attributed to the current Andalusian population as I said we are more than 8 million inhabitants, that is why I say that if the same case we moved to France or another country in central Europe the treatment of the news would be different, but as it is in Andalusia, that place where the Moors were Oh, how exotic, is not like the rest of Europe, how easy it must have been to mix, I already told you that in this case it would have been even more difficult than any other region in Europe due to all the social events that Andalusian society of the time would have experienced with the homogeneity of a society that had to be Christian , be pure of blood, hide any Jewish ancestor, Moorish, etc as if to think that black slaves in a country where there were laws of slavery were going to get a sub-Saharan genetic trace 300 years ago.

 

[Duarte]

[CITA = Duarte; 567347] Historia desconocida de Portugal: los mulatos de Sado.


Parte de la historia de Portugal aún es desconocida para muchos de nosotros. En el siglo XVI el valle del Sado estaba poblado de esclavos.


Durante siglos, Lezíria y Ribeira do Sado fueron un territorio deshabitado, con una reputación de insalubridad, rodeado de brezales.


En el siglo XVI, muchos portugueses abordaron los barcos, lo que agravó aún más el déficit demográfico existente. Esa fue la razón por la que, en ese momento, los propietarios de las fértiles tierras bañadas por el Sado habrían resuelto poblarlos con negros, comprados en los mercados de esclavos. Los mulatos del Sado de nuestros días son, por lo tanto, descendientes de estos antiguos esclavos negros.


Quienquiera que ahora camina a lo largo de la Ribeira do Sado, ya no verá a personas verdaderamente negras ante sus ojos.


El mestizaje ya se ha consumado por completo. Pero las características fisonómicas observables en muchos de los habitantes de la región, así como el color más oscuro de su piel, son evidentes de inmediato, y de inmediato nos remiten a África al sur del Sahara [/ QUOTE]

In Spain these blacks the few who would have retired from the cities to some rural area when slavery is abolished about 130 years ago. It is real, it is known, it exists, but I see the specific and very localized events. In the case of Spain or Andalusia is recent from the 19th century when also in specific cases begin to mix, are small or medium-sized people to be attributed to the current Andalusian population as I said we are more than 8 million inhabitants, that is why I say that if the same case we moved to France or another country in central Europe the treatment of the news would be different, but as it is in Andalusia, that place where the Moors were Oh, how exotic, is not like the rest of Europe, how easy it must have been to mix, I already told you that in this case it would have been even more difficult than any other region in Europe due to all the social events that Andalusian society of the time would have experienced with the homogeneity of a society that had to be Christian , be pure of blood, hide any Jewish ancestor, Moorish, etc as if to think that black slaves in a country where there were laws of slavery were going to get a sub-Saharan genetic trace 300 years ago.

Hello Carlos.
I understand your point of view. It is based on historical and sociological factual elements and infers the exclusion that a person of black appearance would suffer in a classic society of whites. It's a pretty logical deduction. In Brazil segregation is also based in the appearance. The genotype does not matter here, because only one laboratory sees the genotype. Here matters is the phenotype, because the eyes see is the phenotype. If we were to follow the classical definition of the white American supremacists that a drop of black blood is enough to be black, there would be no whites in Brazil. My clear skin, my clear eyes and my height of 1.82 meters and my Caucasian appearance too would not be enough to I be declared a white man in the US because I have SSA DNA. I married a female descendant of Italians and my son is even whiter than me. If he takes a DNA test will also be apointed that he has SSA DNA. Unfortunately no Brazilian university would accept him on the quota reserved for blacks just because it has a few drops of SSA DNA. For all practical and legal purposes in Brazil he is white and would be accused of ideological falsehood if he attempted any vacancy reserved for blacks in public tender or public universities in Brazil simply because he, the father and the mother, do not look like blacks. Here in Brazil one drop is not enough ....
Greetings, a big hug, a nice Sunday and a nice week.

 

[Angela]

I think one shouldn't assume that it was the male who admixed or that all admixture was consensual. The United States is a prime example, and so is the Middle East. In the U.S. 99% of the time the "admixture" was between "white" men and SSA slaves. If the female descendants of the SSA woman continued to "admix" with white men, the "phenotype" could be gone in four generations. That could be as little as 100 years.

 

[MOESAN]

@Ygorcs
agree it would be possible at the margins; let's look at apartheidists "white" South-Africans with SSA genes (other thread here): a man can look pure "something" but have exotic genes not acting on his phenotype - I don't give my thought about the study I took a look only , but your arguments are not without sense.

 

[MOESAN]

Sorry all of yours. I 'm getting old, and I answer to the first post I read (pulsion) without to look at the subsequent ones. And I make kind of "plagia" of other answers. Sad...

 

[Ygorcs]

To Ygorcs

At present anyone can have a refrigerator, an iron, a washing machine, e.t.c. even many unskilled workers may have a housekeeper, but at that time 300 years ago very few could have black slaves and if there were mulatto children they would have remained slaves. In Seville blacks were allowed to have a brotherhood of Holy Week in the 19th century it is known that there were very few, slavery was still in force and it was impossible for these slaves to enter into marriage with native Andalusians. In the 19th century I do not think there was a mentality prepared for something like that either. We invite you to the wedding to be held with my daughter and a slave or vice versa. We are more than 8 million Andalusians and pretending that the Andalusian population has black ancestry 300 years ago is unfeasible as you can say Oxford Cambridge or the mother of the lamb. In those same Andalusian ports the native population had seen the departure of thousands of expelled Moors, had seen the persecution and expulsion of Jews, could have lived the taboo or fear of hiding any Jewish or Moorish ascendant to think that poor black slaves arrive and they get mixed with the Andalusian population. About Native American slaves it is true that they also arrived in Spain, but Queen Elizabeth gave them freedom immediately to prevent Columbus from exercising that right since she was the queen and she commanded, so the few or many Native Americans who arrived to Spain were free. Isabel l demonstrated on many occasions great humanity as she also freed the Catalan peasantry from the high abusive taxes to which they were subjected by the Catalan nobility. As soon as they find out in Oxford they locate the population where their descendants should be now and they put us quickly 10% of Native American, by my parate there is no problem, but apparently there must be sectors, someone or some alguinenes that are interested in lying about Andalusia or Spain to the tests I refer.

So basically a black population existed until the late 19th century but it just completely disappeared in the 20th century without leaving any descendancy at all, it simply died out with no vestiges? If there are not many native blacks in the region, nor many white people with not even a tiny bit of Subsaharan ancestry, then the implication is that that population never reproduced at all.

Again, I continue to think you are ignoring the possibility that that Subsaharan ancestry introgressed via non-black criollos and mestizos from the Spanish colonies in the Americas, especially Cuba, which was under Spanish rule for much longer than most of the rest of Hispanic America. If the situation during the colonial era was any close to what happen between Brazil and Portugal, many sons and daughters of important people of the bureaucratic, landowner and trade elites of the colonies - many of them slightly mixed with Africans and natives - went to study and work in the "metropolis", and some of them never came back, especially those who were children of European-born people. Anyways, I do not believe like you that they are just trying hard to identify a Subsaharan influx that is not there. If it exists, it exists, and all we can do is hypothesize how it ended up there.

 

[Carlos]

^^

There was that black community of slaves is a fact just as they also bought for other parts of Europe. Other Europeans came to the port of Seville, Malaga or Cádiz to buy black slaves.
I do not believe that socio-political conditions allowed that community to develop. Marriage between themselves was forbidden, even so they maintained a strong inbreeding. When they were old they were abandoned on the street.


Of the brotherhood of Holy week composed by blacks it is known that in the 19th century there were very few and even they entered targets to that brotherhood so that it was maintained.


That there were black women who could be pregnant by their white "owners", also their children would be slaves and they would continue to belong to the lowest substratum of the society and in addition those mulattos could have procreated again with blacks and of turning white in 100 years much prisan they had to have given to copulate and ovulate with all Andalusia, thousands of towns, villages and cities to leave a genetic fingerprint in Andalusia.


In 1837 the slavery in Spain is abolished, the blacks of the cities are desplanzan to two towns or little more of the coast of Huelva and Cádiz, still there they will live in ghettos and as much they will be mixed with the gypsies with which they share the neighborhood or ghetto.


The years go by and the accounts do not come out.


It is not the same to say that in Gibraleón and some other population of Andalusia a certain sub-Saharan percent is obtained that even even in those specific populations it is impossible to be fixed 300 years ago, than to attribute it to the whole of Andalusia where there will be cases but Exceptional


Gentlemen, the accounts do not come out. There are these data in specific populations or exceptional cases outside of these populations where we do know that there were black communities but you can not sell these motorcycles for the whole of Andalusia as I have shown with my socio-political data of the Andalusia of the time.

 

[Angela]

So basically a black population existed until the late 19th century but it just completely disappeared in the 20th century without leaving any descendancy at all, it simply died out with no vestiges? If there are not many native blacks in the region, nor many white people with not even a tiny bit of Subsaharan ancestry, then the implication is that that population never reproduced at all.

Again, I continue to think you are ignoring the possibility that that Subsaharan ancestry introgressed via non-black criollos and mestizos from the Spanish colonies in the Americas, especially Cuba, which was under Spanish rule for much longer than most of the rest of Hispanic America. If the situation during the colonial era was any close to what happen between Brazil and Portugal, many sons and daughters of important people of the bureaucratic, landowner and trade elites of the colonies - many of them slightly mixed with Africans and natives - went to study and work in the "metropolis", and some of them never came back, especially those who were children of European-born people. Anyways, I do not believe like you that they are just trying hard to identify a Subsaharan influx that is not there. If it exists, it exists, and all we can do is hypothesize how it ended up there.

Exactly right. If it's there it's there. SSA is very divergent compared to Eurasian ancestry. It shows up; there's no denying it.

What remains is to figure out how it happened.

We have an odd sort of example in the U.S.: the Melungeons.

The closest anyone can figure it out is that they formed from mostly white female indentured servants and male white and SSA indentured servants in the very first years after blacks started being imported. At that time there was no big distinction made between white and black indentured servants and even the blacks were released after a period of service.

As the laws and their restrictions on black and black admixed people became more stringent, a group of these families started moving further and further into the hinterlands, the "frontier", to try to get away from those restrictions. As time passed, they absorbed more white members. Some moved out of Melungeon communities and into the greater population. Still, even in the 1800s, the people who still identified as "Melungeon" demonstrably didn't look "American white", and they started to make up stories that they were Jews or Portuguese or gypsies, or part Native American, anything that might explain their phenotype other than that they were black admixed. As "civilization" caught up to them they sued to get or maintain voting rights and classification as "white".

Today, a few of their communities still remain, and some of their members still deny their ancestry, especially now that they are almost indistinguishable from their neighbors. Although some of them carry SSA yDna, the number of them with measurable SSA autosomal ancestry is the minority, and even where it exists it's small. So, in a way I guess you could say that they disappeared, but it was a gradual process, and their descendants can be found, usually through surnames and genealogical research.

The world has changed so much that now people want to be related to these families.

One of their descendants, and sometimes a spokesman

 

[Carlos]

^^^^
But all will not be able to be related to these families concrete, specific and exceptional.

 

[Ygorcs]

^^

There was that black community of slaves is a fact just as they also bought for other parts of Europe. Other Europeans came to the port of Seville, Malaga or Cádiz to buy black slaves.
I do not believe that socio-political conditions allowed that community to develop. Marriage between themselves was forbidden, even so they maintained a strong inbreeding. When they were old they were abandoned on the street.


Of the brotherhood of Holy week composed by blacks it is known that in the 19th century there were very few and even they entered targets to that brotherhood so that it was maintained.


That there were black women who could be pregnant by their white "owners", also their children would be slaves and they would continue to belong to the lowest substratum of the society and in addition those mulattos could have procreated again with blacks and of turning white in 100 years much prisan they had to have given to copulate and ovulate with all Andalusia, thousands of towns, villages and cities to leave a genetic fingerprint in Andalusia.


In 1837 the slavery in Spain is abolished, the blacks of the cities are desplanzan to two towns or little more of the coast of Huelva and Cádiz, still there they will live in ghettos and as much they will be mixed with the gypsies with which they share the neighborhood or ghetto.


The years go by and the accounts do not come out.


It is not the same to say that in Gibraleón and some other population of Andalusia a certain sub-Saharan percent is obtained that even even in those specific populations it is impossible to be fixed 300 years ago, than to attribute it to the whole of Andalusia where there will be cases but Exceptional


Gentlemen, the accounts do not come out. There are these data in specific populations or exceptional cases outside of these populations where we do know that there were black communities but you can not sell these motorcycles for the whole of Andalusia as I have shown with my socio-political data of the Andalusia of the time.

I think your account sounds reasonable enough, the genetic impact of that populatim would probably have been extremely tiny either way even if they intermarried extensively with the locals. I still wonder, though, what on earth happened to those people, given that they were there even in the later 19th century, and they must have not had such a huge death rate as compared to their birth rate to make them disappear physically, and not just through gradual dilution of their distinctive phenotype, even during the "modern" 20th century.

But then, since the African genetic fingerprint is there, at least in the areas of Andalusia that gave samples to this study, we need to find another explanation to it. I will still bet on the back-migration of African-admixed Hispanic white/whiteish people during the colonial era until more plausible hypotheses are given.

 

[nuno77]

Micro-phylogeographic and demographic history of Portuguese male lineages.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16626329

 

[nuno77]

Unknown history of Portugal: the mulattoes of Sado.


Part of Portugal's history is still unknown to many of us. In century XVI the valley of the Sado was populated with slaves.


For centuries Lezíria and Ribeira do Sado were an uninhabited territory, with a reputation for unhealthiness, surrounded by heaths.


In the century XVI, many Portuguese boarded the ships, which further aggravated the existing demographic deficit. That was the reason why, at that time, the owners of the fertile lands bathed by the Sado would have resolved to populate them with negroes, bought in the slave markets. The mulattoes of the Sado of our day are therefore descendants of these former black slaves.


Whoever now walks along the Ribeira do Sado, you will no longer see truly black people before your eyes.


The miscegenation has already consummated itself completely. But the physiognomic features observable in many of the region's inhabitants, as well as the darker color of their skin, are immediately evident, and they immediately refer us to Africa south of the Sahara

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VlrrZRWub8


Alcacér do Sal is a municipality that has 13 046 inhaitants (2011 Census).


"grande herança genética dos mouros e dos negros"

How accurate would this be? Can a person use a small municipality in the South of Portugal to extrapolate as "grande"?

 

[Carlos]

Ygorcs Creo que su cuenta suena bastante razonable, el impacto genético de esa población probablemente habría sido extremadamente pequeño en ambos sentidos, incluso si se casaran ampliamente con los lugareños. Sin embargo, aún me pregunto qué pasó con esas personas, dado que estuvieron allí incluso a fines del siglo XIX, y no deben haber tenido una tasa de mortalidad tan alta en comparación con su tasa de natalidad para hacer que desaparezcan físicamente, y no solo a través de la dilución gradual de su fenotipo distintivo, incluso durante el "moderno" siglo XX.

Pero entonces, como la huella genética de África está ahí, al menos en las áreas de Andalucía que dieron muestras de este estudio, necesitamos encontrar otra explicación. Seguiré apostando a la migración hacia atrás de personas hispanas / blancas hispanas mezcladas con africanos durante la era colonial hasta que se den hipótesis más plausibles.

I have been investigating and there is no Spanish American emigration. There is a great masculine mobility within Andalusia itself 18th century and also from Galicia, Cantabria and the Algarve towards Andalusia. From the 19th century, the area became a clear emigrant to America, not the reverse, in any case that I have foun:

http://pares.mcu.es/MovimientosMigratorios/staticContent.form?viewName=historia

Net migration in Andalusia in the transition from the 17th century to the XlX
http://rabida.uhu.es/dspace/bitstream/handle/10272/4975/b16151689.pdf?sequence=2

I honestly have an intuition and I do not know what they have done with the cluster: Portugal-Andalusia, the substitute population of Nigeria and the adjustment of curves.


I do not know what they have done there but it is also possible that they were wrong I refer to the facts, what starts bad ends badly.

 

[Duarte]

Sorry all of yours. I 'm getting old, and I answer to the first post I read (pulsion) without to look at the subsequent ones. And I make kind of "plagia" of other answers. Sad...

Hello MOESAN,
Thanks for the indication of a thread for reading.
I found the indicated thread: Admixture in "White Africaners".
It was started by Angela on 09/22/17, 4:24 pm and, in fact, is very interesting.
Greetings.

 

[Duarte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VlrrZRWub8


Alcacér do Sal is a municipality that has 13 046 inhaitants (2011 Census).


"grande herança genética dos mouros e dos negros"

How accurate would this be? Can a person use a small municipality in the South of Portugal to extrapolate as "grande"?

Hello Nuno.

In fact, it is not correct to do extrapolations, that is, to take the part for the whole. It’s can’t to treat the sampling of a specific region as if it were representative of an entire country.

I send you a video in Portuguese that approach the genetics of the Portuguese people from the perspective of Portuguese and Spanish geneticists. A big hug:

https://youtu.be/dACxYqQJIDU

 

[nuno77]

Hello Nuno.

In fact, it is not correct to do extrapolations, that is, to take the part for the whole. It’s can’t to treat the sampling of a specific region as if it were representative of an entire country.

I send you a video in Portuguese that approach the genetics of the Portuguese people from the perspective of Portuguese and Spanish geneticists. A big hug:

https://youtu.be/dACxYqQJIDU

Olá Duarte,

those 2 videos are ancient and they really don't focus on haplogroups. I view them as "romantic" videos that talk about History in a very pink perspective and keep going on and on about the melting pot. They seem to be more ideologic than scientific.
The study "Micro-phylogeographic and demographic history of Portuguese male lineages." is from 2006, but it tries to analyse the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Portuguese districts.
Portugal is very much a R1b majority country.

P.S. - O Brasil vem jogar no Porto com o Panamá!