New paper about auDNA of current Iberia

[MOESAN]

thanks to Bernard SECHER

lundi 11 f?vrier 2019
[h=2]Structure g?n?tique de la p?ninsule Ib?rique[/h] Par Bernard S?cher le lundi 11 f?vrier 2019, 19:01 - G?n?tique des populations
La p?ninsule Ib?rique est diverse linguistiquement. Elle a subi notamment une longue p?riode sous la loi Islamique. Clare Bycroft et ses coll?gues viennent de publier un papier intitul?: Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula. Ils ont analys? le g?nome de 1413 individus Espagnols avec le logiciel fineStructure. Ce dernier a mis en ?vidence 145 groupes g?n?tiques dont la distribution g?ographique r?v?le une structure g?n?tique int?ressante de l'Espagne:

La premi?re bifurcation de l'arbre, s?pare des individus situ?s dans une petite r?gion du sud-ouest de la Galice. La seconde bifurcation s?pare la population Basque du reste des populations Espagnoles. Le reste de l'arbre s?pare les groupes suivant un gradient est-ouest. Ces s?parations suivent plus ou moins les r?gions autonomes d'Espagne dans la direction est-ouest. Par contre ces r?gions g?n?tiques traversent les fronti?res des r?gions Espagnoles dans la direction nord-sud. Ainsi la diff?rentiation g?n?tique suit un axe est-ouest alors qu'il y a une forte similarit? g?n?tique suivant l'axe nord-sud. De mani?re int?ressante l'inclusion d'individus du Portugal dans l'?tude montre qu'ils se regroupent avec les individus de Galice et suivent ainsi ?galement la m?me structure g?n?rale pour toute la p?ninsule Ib?rique:

De mani?re int?ressante, la structure g?n?tique de la p?ninsule Ib?rique suit plus ou moins le d?coupage linguistique de la p?ninsule ? diff?rentes ?poques:

 

[MOESAN]

Une toute petite r?gion de la Galice inclue une forte structure g?n?tique: dans la province de Pontevedra, la diff?rentiation g?n?tique op?re ? des distances inf?rieures ? 10 km. Une forte structure g?n?tique appara?t ?galement dans le pays Basque, et dans la r?gion de la Rioja dans la vall?e de l'Ebre.

Les auteurs ont ensuite ?tudi? les relations entre la population de la p?ninsule Ib?rique et les autres populations d'Europe, d'Afrique du Nord et d'Afrique Sub-Saharienne. Ils ont encore utilis? le logiciel fineStructure pour identifier des groupes de la p?ninsule Ib?rique comportant de l'ascendance issue des populations Europ?ennes ou Africaines. Ils ont ainsi mis en ?vidence 29 groupes en dehors de la p?ninsule Ib?rique et seulement six groupes de la p?ninsule Ib?rique qui ont re?u une contribution g?n?tique ext?rieure, bien moins que les 145 groupes pr?alablement identifi?s: Pays Basque, Aragon/Catalogne, Centre, Ouest, Portugal/Andalousie et Galice/Portugal:

Ceci montre que la structure g?n?tique de la p?ninsule Ib?rique est principalement due a une isolation r?gionale. Parmi les 29 groupes en dehors de la p?ninsule Ib?rique, seuls six groupes ont une contribution sup?rieure ? 1% dans la p?ninsule Ib?rique. Ces six groupes sont situ?s en Europe de l'Ouest, du Sud et en Afrique du Nord-Ouest: France, Italie, Irlande, Maroc et Sahara de l'Ouest:

 

[MOESAN]

Les groupes Europ?ens contribuent de mani?re homog?ne dans les diff?rentes r?gions de la p?ninsule Ib?rique ? l'inverse du Maroc dont la contribution semble ainsi plus r?cente. Les r?gions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent les plus fortes contributions issues d'Afrique Sub-Saharienne.

Les auteurs ont ensuite utilis? le logiciel GlobeTrotter pour dat? les ?v?nements de m?lange g?n?tique. Ainsi la plupart de ces contributions Europ?ennes ou Africaines sont dat?es entre 860 et 1120 ap. JC. Les r?gions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent un second ?v?nement de m?lange g?n?tique avec l'Afrique Sub-Saharienne dat? d'environ 300 ans. Les auteurs ont ?galement mis en ?vidence un m?lange g?n?tique des Basques avec d'autres r?gions d'Espagne entre 1190 et 1514 ap. JC. Cette contribution Basque est plus forte dans les r?gions voisines au pays Basque par rapport aux r?gions plus ?loign?es.

End of the Bernard SECHER abstract from the work of Clare Bycroft et al : Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula

 

[Duarte]

Les groupes Europ�ens contribuent de mani�re homog�ne dans les diff�rentes r�gions de la p�ninsule Ib�rique � l'inverse du Maroc dont la contribution semble ainsi plus r�cente. Les r�gions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent les plus fortes contributions issues d'Afrique Sub-Saharienne.

Les auteurs ont ensuite utilis� le logiciel GlobeTrotter pour dat� les �v�nements de m�lange g�n�tique. Ainsi la plupart de ces contributions Europ�ennes ou Africaines sont dat�es entre 860 et 1120 ap. JC. Les r�gions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent un second �v�nement de m�lange g�n�tique avec l'Afrique Sub-Saharienne dat� d'environ 300 ans. Les auteurs ont �galement mis en �vidence un m�lange g�n�tique des Basques avec d'autres r�gions d'Espagne entre 1190 et 1514 ap. JC. Cette contribution Basque est plus forte dans les r�gions voisines au pays Basque par rapport aux r�gions plus �loign�es.

End of the Bernard SECHER abstract from the work of Clare Bycroft et al : Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula

Congratulations, MOESAN .Very interesting study so that we can think and reflect on the contribution of European and non-European peoples in the formation of modern Iberians. A new approach, which I did not know and which, of course, will generate much controversy among the most conservative, because it establishes a new paradigm for the analysis of the question. The approach of the subject of the presence of the DNA of Africa SSA in the Iberian Peninsula is still a taboo for many and it is good that there are studies on the subject, so that it is better debated in a open form and without extreme passions. I am not an gret expert in the beautuful French language, but I have been able to understand everything that is written. Good luck to this new thread that is begining today and that the discutions can be interesting, profitable, high level and without passions or prejudices.

 

[Carlos]

What seems strange to me is where the Arabs are or their genetics in this study. Al-Andalus must have arrived from all the Muslim territories in 800 years. How much mixed marriages occurred and also only Berber and Iberian to then influence the entire population taking into account that the expulsions were massive so that trace in the current Iberian population would be due to the converts. So how many converts would have been left to then genetically influence the entire population with genes from the Northwest of Africa and not from Arabs, bearing in mind that those Berbers themselves must already have a mixture with Arabs of the time when their own Arabs Islamized North Africa by forming mixed marriages at the beginning.


Also in the study they heal in health, alluding to the fact that in the North African population from which they have extracted the samples for comparison, they already contain European genetics.


What could 50,000 Berbers and then 3,000 Arabs have arrived? How many mixed marriages were carried out in Al-Andalus? The expulsions are known to have been massive, there were also converts and probably many emigrated to Galicia. The Arab Arabs left all, not one was left?


Something does not fit here. Do you know who has funded this study?

 

[Carlos]

It is estimated that the inhabitants who took refuge in the northern valleys after the Muslim invasion were about 500,000, an authentic overpopulation for the area and its resources.

On the other hand if 500,000 of the so-called "Mozarabic" Hispano-Romans, Hispano-Visigoths moved to the north after the arrival of the Almoravids, they would have genetically influenced the population of northern Spain, so in the reconquest and subsequent repopulation would return to occupy the area from which they left and from where they were native before the arrival of the Muslims.


If the North African genes in the current population of the Iberian West are fixed 300 years ago, did the converts have 200 years to inseminate all of the Iberian West?

 

[nanelsiko]

hello i am new user of this website

hmm. can i help with it? or not? please write PW.

 

[MOESAN]

@Duarte
Hello!
I 've no merit in all this, I did only copy the B. S?cher abstract already written in French (I hope it will be understandable for the most of us here, because it's "international" French as for every scientific topic).
I just looked at it very quickly and I vn't put too much of my brain in it yet.
Just I 've some doubts about the reliability and precision of these admixtures events datations, if I don't doubt they have some reality. NOw, someones will have surely some remarks to do about the precise quality of the SSA or Moroccan DNA alleged. (I suppose it's based upon today pops so an Arab componant could be present among the 'Moroccan' component?
I opened this thread for the ones who are very interested in this question (a hot one, sometimes!), but itsn't my first focus (I've hard work to try to understad the BB's period).
As you I hope it 'll not turn into a forum war as too often.

 

[MOESAN]

The question is maybe not without link with a paper about ancient DNA in Paleogenetics reported by Angela in the thread:
[h=1]Western migration route from Africa into Iberia[/h]

 

[Duarte]

@Duarte
Hello!
I 've no merit in all this, I did only copy the B. S�cher abstract already written in French (I hope it will be understandable for the most of us here, because it's "international" French as for every scientific topic).
I just looked at it very quickly and I vn't put too much of my brain in it yet.
Just I 've some doubts about the reliability and precision of these admixtures events datations, if I don't doubt they have some reality. NOw, someones will have surely some remarks to do about the precise quality of the SSA or Moroccan DNA alleged. (I suppose it's based upon today pops so an Arab componant could be present among the 'Moroccan' component?
I opened this thread for the ones who are very interested in this question (a hot one, sometimes!), but itsn't my first focus (I've hard work to try to understad the BB's period).
As you I hope it 'll not turn into a forum war as too often.

Thanks for the clarifications, MOESAN. In fact, mention is made of the medieval contribution brought by the Moors (in this case, North African DNA) in the fase of occupation of the peninsula from the 8th century to the end of the 15th century. This part is already known. The great novelty is a supposed sub-Saharan contribution some 300 years ago that, although not clarified in the text, could only have come from African slaves brought to the colonial Portuguese and Spanish americas and also by African slaves who would have been taken to Iberia, in same colonial period. Like you, I hope that the topic does not become a war for this reason. LOL. For me the french used in the text is very clear and all those who speak some Latin language will not have difficulties to understand it. Big hug.

 

[Carlos]

http://www.madrimasd.org/notiweb/no...I8BZHZhyzcMcy2WDydH3R2y9oxf7nKjtVhiSi8MzFPM0k

A study conducted in Cueva Bajondillo (Torremolinos, Malaga) by a team of researchers from Spain, Japan and the United Kingdom reveals that modern humans replaced the Neanderthals some 44,000 years ago.


This fact shows that the replacement of Neandertals by modern humans in southern Iberia is an early, not a late, phenomenon in the context of Western Europe.

 

[Carlos]

I would also like to launch the vision of the reconquest from a perspective that is never contemplated and is the 500,000 displaced native of the south who had moved to the north of Spain after the Almorávide arrival, I think that they should be the engine of the reconquest because the term "reconquista" really makes sense in them. Perhaps without their presence in the north of Spain there would not have been a feeling of "reconquest" since the lands of the south of the peninsula had never belonged to the northern area of Spain . So I think of the displaced natives of the south of the peninsula as the engine of the reconquest and later repopulation which is nothing other than returning home, to the place from which one day they had to leave.

*Also I will send the above document to the CSIC to investigate the origin of the financing of the study that is allegedly trying to fit the pieces in modern political interests contrary to the unity of Spain.

 

[Duarte]

I would also like to launch the vision of the reconquest from a perspective that is never contemplated and is the 500,000 displaced native of the south who had moved to the north of Spain after the Almorávide arrival, I think that they should be the engine of the reconquest because the term "reconquista" really makes sense in them. Perhaps without their presence in the north of Spain there would not have been a feeling of "reconquest" since the lands of the south of the peninsula had never belonged to the northern area of Spain . So I think of the displaced natives of the south of the peninsula as the engine of the reconquest and later repopulation which is nothing other than returning home, to the place from which one day they had to leave.

*Also I will send the above document to the CSIC to investigate the origin of the financing of the study that is allegedly trying to fit the pieces in modern political interests contrary to the unity of Spain.

Hello Carlos.
My silence about your placements does not mean I'm ignoring you. On the contrary, I respect him very much and have learned to admire him in this short period of time that I am here in Eupedia forum. I am only punctuating what I read, without agreeing or disagreeing, even because I am not European and I do not know enough the history of Spain so that I can issue any qualified opinion. I prefer that the true interested , the Spaniards like you, manifest themselves. I'm just seeing and learning. At this moment, for me, everything here is apprenticeship. Warm greetings from a Brazilian who loves Iberia and is very proud of the legacy left by the Iberians in the Americas.

 

[Carlos]

^^^^
Thanks, we need Iberians in America and America that honor their origin and their history. I have already seen in recent decades how a macro campaign has been carried out among the Ibero-American natives against their own history, where it has happened in a few decades of seeing ourselves as the motherland to revile and reject discovery and conquest. I know very well what is the origin of that campaign and the objectives it pursues. That is why the role of Iberian Americans like you is of vital importance and I believe many more in maintaining a constructive vision of the joint history of Ibero-American countries, including Portugal and Spain, and that would benefit us so much in the future at all levels. , for this reason I urge you not to decay and keep the banner of Iberia alive in America against the enemies who try to destroy our alliances inoculating in the current populations the gratuitous hatred towards Iberia and then also revile the modern history of the speaking countries Hispanic, which is the marketing and advertising system that they are currently employing for modern societies in South America. So I urge you to turn your eyes back to the motherland where the truth lies about what was and what will be.

 

[Duarte]

^^^^
Thanks, we need Iberians in America and America that honor their origin and their history. I have already seen in recent decades how a macro campaign has been carried out among the Ibero-American natives against their own history, where it has happened in a few decades of seeing ourselves as the motherland to revile and reject discovery and conquest. I know very well what is the origin of that campaign and the objectives it pursues. That is why the role of Iberian Americans like you is of vital importance and I believe many more in maintaining a constructive vision of the joint history of Ibero-American countries, including Portugal and Spain, and that would benefit us so much in the future at all levels. , for this reason I urge you not to decay and keep the banner of Iberia alive in America against the enemies who try to destroy our alliances inoculating in the current populations the gratuitous hatred towards Iberia and then also revile the modern history of the speaking countries Hispanic, which is the marketing and advertising system that they are currently employing for modern societies in South America. So I urge you to turn your eyes back to the motherland where the truth lies about what was and what will be.

I agree with everything you said, Carlos.
For a long time I have been saddened with fact to attribute all the ills of Brazil to the fact that we were colonized by the Portuguese. And many of those who say this are not Iberians of origin. Today my sadness has turned into indignation and in all the social circles of which I participate I make it a point to demonstrate this indignation by demanding respect for our culture traditionally and originally Iberian. A great legacy of Portugal, which all have to respect, especially those who arrived in the country between the mid-nineteenth century and the mid-twentieth century, when, by the way, were cordially received.

 

[Ygorcs]

Fascinating study. I think its results are mostly very plausible, and the way they are presented looks credible. Though the precision of datings and admixture proportions may be questioned, the broad results fit perfectly well with historic events and periods that have been documented. The minor Subsaharan influx about 300 years ago makes sense not just because it is known that African slaves were brought to Portugal (which is what I really know, but I am sure in Andalusia similar processes happened) to work on plantations and even domestic work, but aside from that I think much of this ancestry may have actually come from mixed Brazilians, often children of Portuguese temporary immigrants to the American colony, who eventually went to live in Portugal and remained there. There were also Brazilian whites with minor Subsaharan ancestry who went to study and work in Portugal, and some stayed there. A classic example of how this Subsaharan wave may have happened can be found in the history of the famous slave-turned-wealthy lady Chica da Silva, whose sons she bore to her wealthy diamond dealer and Portuguese husband (though not formally married) followed their father when he was summoned to go back to Portugal, and some of them even came to have important positions in the Portuguese bureaucracy.

As for the Arab and Berber ancestry, I think they compared the Iberian genetic clusters with the modern Moroccan population, so that the Northwest African component already encompasses some Arab Southwest Asian ancestry. What the results imply to me is that the presence of "true" Arabs from Asia was negligible in Al-Andalus or at least the Christianized converts and the Christians who had mixed occasionally with the Muslim conquerors (that must also have happened plenty of times, either consensually or not). The bulk of the "Arabs" must have been fully Arabized Maghrebis with a lot of Berber ancestry mixed with new Southwest Asian arrivals, and the Berbers, who notoriously had a sort of ethnic rivalry with Arabs in Al-Andalus, were those who retained their ethnic and perhaps even linguistic identity (bilinguals) and probably mixed less with the Arabs. Thus the best proxy for the Muslim foreigners in Iberia may be the present-day Moroccans, who also received the same introgression of Southwest Asians and other Muslim areas, but only as a minority of the population.

 

[Angela]

This is where we discussed the pre-print. The English version of the paper is used.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-of-Iberia?highlight=autosomal+analysis+Spain

There doesn't seem to be any difference between the two versions.

 

[Duarte]

This is where we discussed the pre-print. The English version of the paper is used.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-of-Iberia?highlight=autosomal+analysis+Spain

There doesn't seem to be any difference between the two versions.

Thanks for the additional clarifications, Angela.
In fact the content of the French and English versions is the same, with some minor additions in the temporality of the events in the French version. When the English version only talks of "the recent pulse of subSaharanAfrican DNA”, without specify dates, the French version states that this recent pulse of SSA DNA was about three hundred years ago. Regards.

 

[MOESAN]

Ouf! It's not completely useless! (dates)
But Angela is right: one map awaked some "souvenir" in my head, but as I had only a superficial look at the previous similar thread and here there were more maps, I supposed it was a different paper or a complementary one (I have no remembrance of the authors names). Sorry, I can less and less follow the numerous threads. I hope it would not be a problem. The best to do would be to join both?

 

[Carlos]

We are in 2019 and I would be the first to put the photo of a hypothetical black ancestor, but the issue is that this award to the Andalusian population of that black ancestry 300 years ago I think is poorly explained, manipulated or distorted in the treatment that the text about the study is given.
That the port of Seville, Cadiz and Malaga were the most active in the traffic and sale of blacks to South America and other European countries is something that we already knew as well as that some many or few stayed in Andalusia and other places in Spain as slaves mainly in the cities, but the laws and mentality of that time is not that of today and it is also known that they had the forbidden marriage and that among them there was a strong inbreeding and that when these people did not serve the owner because they were already old and useless for work they were abandoned in the street, there was a person in Seville who gave them shelter. These slaves during all this time could not create mixed marriages because they were slaves, they belonged to the lowest social stratum of society, the strong inbreeding and their status as slaves ended up suffocating them. Although it is true that when slavery is eradicated in Spain the blacks who had to stay in the cities are moved to other areas such as Gibraleon and some other people, there they are free but as you know they live in ghettos and generally intersect with the gypsy race, over time probably have been mixed with Iberians, but in two towns and a half of Andalusia that has thousands of villages. Now if the samples have been collected in Gibraleón and some other population that are known were these freedmen and in the treatment of the article is not specified as exceptional but is directly attributed to Andalusia in its entirety because it is like adjudging the percent of E-M81 for all of Spain because 44% of the passages are from this haplogroup.