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Thread: Proto-Scythian results

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    Proto-Scythian results

    ARS026 Gedmatch: Z841501 with Sintashta and Karasuk affinity. Map was made by Sergey Kozlov.
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,11376.90.html



    Closest ancient samples: (made by Danişmend)
    1) Hun_Tian_Shan_DA385 @ 8,107176
    2) Hun_Tian_Shan_DA100 @ 10,030619
    3) Saka_Central_DA13 @ 10,077415
    4) Scythian_Aldy_Bel_A10 @ 10,528638
    5) Bashkir @ 10,96053
    6) Karasuk @ 11,011368
    7) Scythian_Aldy_Bel_A17 @ 11,177253
    8) Hun_Tian_Shan_DA74 @ 12,282976
    9) Xiongnu_DA38 @ 12,37718
    10) Hun_Tian_Shan_DA65 @ 12,678623
    11) Scythian_Pazyryk_Be9 @ 13,077074
    12) Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_Ze6 @ 14,347163
    13) Saka_Tian_Shan_DA56 @ 14,765843
    14) Hun_Tian_Shan_DA101 @ 16,087256
    15) Scythian_Zevakino_Chilikta_IS2 @ 17,271072
    16) Hun_Tian_Shan_DA85 @ 17,942356
    17) Xiongnu_DA41 @ 18,132184
    18) Karluk_DA222 @ 18,241096
    19) Saka_Tian_Shan_DA47 @ 18,748534
    20) Gokturk_DA228 @ 19,167283

    "Bronze Age population dynamics and the rise of dairy pastoralism on the eastern Eurasian steppe"
    PNAS published ahead of print November 5, 2018
    https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1813608115

    sample: ARS026
    mtDNA: C4a1a + 195
    Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123)
    GedMatch: Z841501

    The study found that Scythians are Western Steppes Outliers. No Iranian connection.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    No Iranian association? You mean Iranian as in "from modern Iran" or in the linguistic sense of "related to Iranic-speaking peoples" (extant or ancient ones)? There was genetic differentiation between Western and Eastern Scythians, with the later much more admixed with East Asians (not surprisingly) than most of the former. Scythians look like much more West Eurasian and much less East Eurasian Central Asians, exactly as you should expect from the Turkification process begun in the Late Antiquity and accelerated in the Middle Ages. I'd like to see them compared with Yaghnobi speakers of Central Asia to see how they compare to them, but I'd expect those living in the Eurasian steppe to be much less exposed to "Southern" genetic influences from South-Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau, whereas the northerner Scythians would've been much closer to Siberian populations, including Turkic and Uralic ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    No Iranian association? You mean Iranian as in "from modern Iran" or in the linguistic sense of "related to Iranic-speaking peoples" (extant or ancient ones)? There was genetic differentiation between Western and Eastern Scythians, with the later much more admixed with East Asians (not surprisingly) than most of the former. Scythians look like much more West Eurasian and much less East Eurasian Central Asians, exactly as you should expect from the Turkification process begun in the Late Antiquity and accelerated in the Middle Ages. I'd like to see them compared with Yaghnobi speakers of Central Asia to see how they compare to them, but I'd expect those living in the Eurasian steppe to be much less exposed to "Southern" genetic influences from South-Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau, whereas the northerner Scythians would've been much closer to Siberian populations, including Turkic and Uralic ones.
    If this is the guy i think about ( Serguey Kozlov ). He thinks Yamnaya were Proto-Turkic speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    If this is the guy i think about ( Serguey Kozlov ). He thinks Yamnaya were Proto-Turkic speakers.
    Maybe? Maybe not? Who knows?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    No Iranian association? You mean Iranian as in "from modern Iran" or in the linguistic sense of "related to Iranic-speaking peoples" (extant or ancient ones)? There was genetic differentiation between Western and Eastern Scythians, with the later much more admixed with East Asians (not surprisingly) than most of the former. Scythians look like much more West Eurasian and much less East Eurasian Central Asians, exactly as you should expect from the Turkification process begun in the Late Antiquity and accelerated in the Middle Ages. I'd like to see them compared with Yaghnobi speakers of Central Asia to see how they compare to them, but I'd expect those living in the Eurasian steppe to be much less exposed to "Southern" genetic influences from South-Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau, whereas the northerner Scythians would've been much closer to Siberian populations, including Turkic and Uralic ones.
    The Hazara might speak an Iranian language, but are also well-known for their Altaic roots. Beside them I really can't see the Iranian connection (based on the map). After this map the so called "Turkification process" becomes quite obsolete to me. Maybe this "Turkification process" was just forged to establish an Indo-European idendity over the ancient steppe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    The Hazara might speak an Iranian language, but are also well-known for their Altaic roots. Beside them I really can't see the Iranian connection (based on the map). After this map the so called "Turkification process" becomes quite obsolete to me. Maybe this "Turkification process" was just forged to establish an Indo-European idendity over the ancient steppe?
    Hmm, no. The "Turkification" process did happen because it happened in such "recent" historic times that we have written evidences for it, as well as the remnant Iranic languages at the peripheries of the Turkified regions. Besides, you're ignoring some basic facts because you're only looking at the steppes and based on a simple comparison between modern samples and BA steppe samples (and ignoring everything that happened elsewhere and in the meantime), like:
    1) according to increasingly numerous DNA evidences, the steppe ancestry that spread so much from Iberia to India did NOT have the significant East Asian/East Siberian ancestry that is found now in varying proportions in the Turkic-speaking populations of the steppes and Central Asia, so it came with a different and earlier population that most probably also had a different language;
    2) those lands with measurable BA steppe ancestry (minus the significant East Asian/Siberian admixture) also happen to speak mostly Indo-European languages or are known to have spoken Indo-European languages (either as a majority or minority language) in the Antiquity.
    3) that East Asian/East Siberian component started to increase only in the Iron Age in most of the Eurasian steppe and Central Asia west of the Altai only in the Iron Age and only increased a LOT in the Late Antiquity, "coincidentally" exactly the same time when the historic sources and archaeological evidences of unquestionably Turkic-speaking people appear in those regions;
    4) almost all Turkic-speaking populations have some varying proportion of that East Asian/East Siberian ancestry, but not all of them have a lot of BA steppe ancestry (not those in and east of the Altai), and more importantly even many populations with a lot of BA steppe ancestry happen to not speak Turkic languages at all, but IE ones;
    5) there was a significant eastward shift between the Iron Age and the modern era, corresponding, coincidentally or not, to the general movements known from some of the first historically documented Turkic Khaganates and presumably Turkic conquerors;
    6) ancient BA Central Asian DNA looks closer to that of Tadjiks than that of most modern Turkic peoples living in the same regions;
    7) the toponyms, hydronyms and personal names of the ancient (Antiquity) steppes and Central Asia that are known to us are mostly Iranic or at last seemingly IE, not Turkic;
    8) if the expanding Turks were a mix of the more "Eastern" Proto-Turks with East-Central Asian Scytho-Sarmatians as it seems likely, and they mostly expanded through elite conquest and prestige and not just massive migration (as they unquestionably did in Turkey or Azerbaijan), then it is quite obvious why the BA/IA steppe populations of the West Eurasian steppe are still reasonably close to the modern Turk populations living there, because the people who Turkified them were already pretty "Scythian-like" genetically and they probably never became the majority, instead they assimilated the conquered peoples.

    And of course there are many more caveats with a hypothesis such as yours that could be said, but this comment would become too long, and I don't have all that time. lol All in all, I think you're trying to "fit" the data into your expectations, not the other way around.

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    When it comes to the language there's no actual certainty regarding the Scythian language group - please read Constantine Borissoff's post on 'Was the Scythian an Iranian language?' (I cannot post links yet but you can find it super easily).

    TL;DR: We don't know. The assumption that Scythians were Iranian-speakers comes from Abaev (1949) and it seems to be biased by author's idée fixe of direct Scythian origin of Ossetian people. The vocabulary comparisons suggest major similarities to Iranian, Russian (Slavic) and Turkish language. Here comes my conclusion: direct relation to any of those languages would have became a dominant theory if it only had been the topic of a biased scientific paper written in 1948 ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaszczurnocom View Post
    When it comes to the language there's no actual certainty regarding the Scythian language group - please read Constantine Borissoff's post on 'Was the Scythian an Iranian language?' (I cannot post links yet but you can find it super easily).
    I have read this article. He has some valid points!

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